To whom do you turn?

[Heidi]

I have a question for those who believe in free will. When you sin or are tempted to sin, where to you turn; your own free will to stop sinning or to the cross?

If it's to the cross and Romans 3:ll says; "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who udnerstands, no one who seeks God." So since no one seeks God, then who is it who leads you to turn to the cross?

But if you think it's by your own desire, effort, and free will, tha contradicts the above passage, Romans 9:16 and many other passages as well, and means that Jesus died for nothing.

And secondly, if God gives you faith and you don't believe him, then God obviously hasn't given you faith, or you would have faith in him. So Grace is irresistible as the bible tells us in Romans 11:29.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi on Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:46 am
I have a question for those who believe in free will. When you sin or are tempted to sin, where to you turn; your own free will to stop sinning or to the cross?

Please give an example of what you mean by sin and what you mean by “turn to your own free willâ€Â. When I employ my own free will, I do it by choosing one thing over another. For instance, I can choose to steal my neighbor’s shovel when I see it lying in his driveway or I can choose to go out of my way to put it back in his tool shed for him. I don’t have to ‘turn to free will.’ The fact that I can choose shows that I possess free will. I don’t even understand whadeeheck you mean by that. Please give a specific example.

quote by Heidi
If it's to the cross and Romans 3:ll says; "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who udnerstands, no one who seeks God." So since no one seeks God, then who is it who leads you to turn to the cross?
But if you think it's by your own desire, effort, and free will, tha contradicts the above passage, Romans 9:16 and many other passages as well, and means that Jesus died for nothing.

If I read just part of your post, I could say that you stated plainly that Jesus died for nothing, by taking the end part of your sentence and discarding the rest. That is exactly what you have done with Paul’s writing. You took it out of context so you could prove a point that Paul wasn’t even suggesting. Did you do that of your own free will or did the devil make you do it?

quote by Heidi
And secondly, if God gives you faith and you don't believe him, then God obviously hasn't given you faith, or you would have faith in him. So Grace is irresistible as the bible tells us in Romans 11:29.

Well, God gave me some faith once but it was damaged in shipping so I refused it. I am supposed to get a load of grace next week. I didn’t really want the grace but since it was free, I’m going to pile it out back with the other things that were ordained for me that I couldn’t resist. When I get some unmerited favor, I’ll put it all into the unprofitable works that no one wants and use my free will to make void the law of debt and reckon myself dead to unimputed righteousness and be saved from the wrath pronounced on me through the deceitfulness of pride by the dispensation of exemption in the oracles of AV. Remember, he who boasts most, hath not humility unless it be God‘s humility in and to the praise of his glory, and not we ourselves. Go and tell what that meaneth and I will have mercy and not sacrifice without an election of unreckoning.

Sometimes, we use words and phrases without having a clue about their meaning in reality. Sad, isn’t it?

 

[biblecatholic]

I have a question for those who believe in free will. When you sin or are tempted to sin, where to you turn; your own free will to stop sinning or to the cross?

If it's to the cross and Romans 3:ll says; "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who udnerstands, no one who seeks God." So since no one seeks God, then who is it who leads you to turn to the cross?

But if you think it's by your own desire, effort, and free will, tha contradicts the above passage, Romans 9:16 and many other passages as well, and means that Jesus died for nothing.

And secondly, if God gives you faith and you don't believe him, then God obviously hasn't given you faith, or you would have faith in him. So Grace is irresistible as the bible tells us in Romans 11:29.

I didn't know people didn't believe in free will. News to me.

ABout your none are righteous James 5:16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Paul in romans 3 is quoting Psalm 14 but the same psalm goes on and talks about the righteous.

John the Baptist was Righteous and others were too.

Can someone full of the Holy Spirit sin???


John the Baptist was full of the Holy Spirit in the womb

 

[Heidi]

quote by Heidi on Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:46 am
I have a question for those who believe in free will. When you sin or are tempted to sin, where to you turn; your own free will to stop sinning or to the cross?

Please give an example of what you mean by sin and what you mean by “turn to your own free willâ€Â. When I employ my own free will, I do it by choosing one thing over another. For instance, I can choose to steal my neighbor’s shovel when I see it lying in his driveway or I can choose to go out of my way to put it back in his tool shed for him. I don’t have to ‘turn to free will.’ The fact that I can choose shows that I possess free will. I don’t even understand whadeeheck you mean by that. Please give a specific example.


[quote:76b6a]quote by Heidi
If it's to the cross and Romans 3:ll says; "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who udnerstands, no one who seeks God." So since no one seeks God, then who is it who leads you to turn to the cross?
But if you think it's by your own desire, effort, and free will, tha contradicts the above passage, Romans 9:16 and many other passages as well, and means that Jesus died for nothing.

If I read just part of your post, I could say that you stated plainly that Jesus died for nothing, by taking the end part of your sentence and discarding the rest. That is exactly what you have done with Paul’s writing. You took it out of context so you could prove a point that Paul wasn’t even suggesting. Did you do that of your own free will or did the devil make you do it?

quote by Heidi
And secondly, if God gives you faith and you don't believe him, then God obviously hasn't given you faith, or you would have faith in him. So Grace is irresistible as the bible tells us in Romans 11:29.

Well, God gave me some faith once but it was damaged in shipping so I refused it. I am supposed to get a load of grace next week. I didn’t really want the grace but since it was free, I’m going to pile it out back with the other things that were ordained for me that I couldn’t resist. When I get some unmerited favor, I’ll put it all into the unprofitable works that no one wants and use my free will to make void the law of debt and reckon myself dead to unimputed righteousness and be saved from the wrath pronounced on me through the deceitfulness of pride by the dispensation of exemption in the oracles of AV. Remember, he who boasts most, hath not humility unless it be God‘s humility in and to the praise of his glory, and not we ourselves. Go and tell what that meaneth and I will have mercy and not sacrifice without an election of unreckoning.

Sometimes, we use words and phrases without having a clue about their meaning in reality. Sad, isn’t it?[/quote:76b6a]

If you could say that I blatantly said that Jesus died for nothing, then you could say that Paul said that also in Galataions 2:21. That's because the Catholics are so much in the habit of twisting God's words around, they'd think nothing of twisting my words around. So please read my words again and you'll see that I said that people who turn to themselves when they sin or are tempted to sin, think that Jesus died for nothing.

You have also shown that you do not turn to the cross when you sin. You try to stop sinning on your own or ask Mary to help you. So since you do everything but accept Christ's atonement for your sins, then you have no chance of getting to heaven because you can't save yourself and neither can the pope or Mary save you. But we've spent dozens of hours trying to tell you how to get ot heaven and so has Jesus. If you reject His words, you have nowhere to turn.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi

If you could say that I blatantly said that Jesus died for nothing, then you could say that Paul said that also in Galataions 2:21. That's because the Catholics are so much in the habit of twisting God's words around, they'd think nothing of twisting my words around. So please read my words again and you'll see that I said that people who turn to themselves when they sin or are tempted to sin, think that Jesus died for nothing.

Okkkkay…that went as well as could be expected. Heidi, that’s what I meant. I said that if I read just part of your post, I could say that you stated plainly that Jesus died for nothing, by taking the end part of your sentence and discarding the rest. Do you have a reading comprehension disability? Maybe you read my post in a hurry? Please read it again.

quote by Heidi

You have also shown that you do not turn to the cross when you sin. You try to stop sinning on your own or ask Mary to help you. So since you do everything but accept Christ's atonement for your sins, then you have no chance of getting to heaven because you can't save yourself and neither can the pope or Mary save you. But we've spent dozens of hours trying to tell you how to get ot heaven and so has Jesus. If you reject His words, you have nowhere to turn.
Yours in Christ,
Heidi

I have never been Roman Catholic, nor have I ever prayed to Mary, nor have I ever subjected myself to the ruling of the pope. I do turn to the cross when I sin. I also believe in repentance and confession to Christ when I sin. I do not reject the words of Christ. I spend most of my time on here trying to get people like you to read them for yourselves instead of taking what other people say he said as gospel.

Where have you ever gotten any of these ideas? Because I agree with much of what francisdesales has written on works of faith and repentance and obedience to Christ? You need to slow down, back up and engage your brain when you read. Words mean something, Heidi. You can’t skip over and through them like a chicken chasing a June bug. :o

 

[Heidi]

quote by Heidi

If you could say that I blatantly said that Jesus died for nothing, then you could say that Paul said that also in Galataions 2:21. That's because the Catholics are so much in the habit of twisting God's words around, they'd think nothing of twisting my words around. So please read my words again and you'll see that I said that people who turn to themselves when they sin or are tempted to sin, think that Jesus died for nothing.

Okkkkay…that went as well as could be expected. Heidi, that’s what I meant. I said that if I read just part of your post, I could say that you stated plainly that Jesus died for nothing, by taking the end part of your sentence and discarding the rest. Do you have a reading comprehension disability? Maybe you read my post in a hurry? Please read it again.


[quote:979b6]quote by Heidi

You have also shown that you do not turn to the cross when you sin. You try to stop sinning on your own or ask Mary to help you. So since you do everything but accept Christ's atonement for your sins, then you have no chance of getting to heaven because you can't save yourself and neither can the pope or Mary save you. But we've spent dozens of hours trying to tell you how to get ot heaven and so has Jesus. If you reject His words, you have nowhere to turn.
Yours in Christ,
Heidi

I have never been Roman Catholic, nor have I ever prayed to Mary, nor have I ever subjected myself to the ruling of the pope. I do turn to the cross when I sin. I also believe in repentance and confession to Christ when I sin. I do not reject the words of Christ. I spend most of my time on here trying to get people like you to read them for yourselves instead of taking what other people say he said as gospel.

Where have you ever gotten any of these ideas? Because I agree with much of what francisdesales has written on works of faith and repentance and obedience to Christ? You need to slow down, back up and engage your brain when you read. Words mean something, Heidi. You can’t skip over and through them like a chicken chasing a June bug. :o[/quote:979b6]

The last thing I do is take what other people say as the gospel. Inf act, I was severely flamed here for using scripture to show why man doesn't have free will because the belief that man doesn't have free will is not a belief that the majority have. So the one thing I always do is stand up for the gospel and all scripture.

If I skip over anything it's because I have already thought it through to its conclusions. But I can spell things out much more slowly for those who haven't yet done that.

Christianity takes about as much work and effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. That is no effort at all, jsut love and tgratitude. So you need to listen to Jesus when he says; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."If our hearts are cleaned on the inside, the outside will become clean as well as Jesus tells us. And then you'll know why thanking God and giving back what he gave is is no work at all. But if our hearts haven't been washed by the Holy Spirit on the inside, then yes indeed, people will do as much work as the Pharisees did and never get anywhere. So read Hebrews 4:1-9 to see what coming to Jesus for rest from our own works means. And until you understand that, then further conversation between us will be a waste of time because you listen to people like Francis instead of the word of God alone.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Heidi

The last thing I do is take what other people say as the gospel. Inf act, I was severely flamed here for using scripture to show why man doesn't have free will because the belief that man doesn't have free will is not a belief that the majority have. So the one thing I always do is stand up for the gospel and all scripture.

If I skip over anything it's because I have already thought it through to its conclusions. But I can spell things out much more slowly for those who haven't yet done that.

Were you severely flamed here for using scripture or were you reprimanded for using it out of context? Do you have a link to that flaming? Should we bring marshmallows? :

quote by Heidi

Christianity takes about as much work and effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. That is no effort at all, jsut love and tgratitude. So you need to listen to Jesus when he says; "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks."If our hearts are cleaned on the inside, the outside will become clean as well as Jesus tells us.

I believe what Jesus says. We just have a different idea about what he meant when he said it. He wants you to clean your heart of bad attitudes and hatred. When your heart is full of sin that you don’t want to give up, you’re going to speak around sin and not address it as sin.

quote by Heidi And then you'll know why thanking God and giving back what he gave is is no work at all. But if our hearts haven't been washed by the Holy Spirit on the inside, then yes indeed, people will do as much work as the Pharisees did and never get anywhere. So read Hebrews 4:1-9 to see what coming to Jesus for rest from our own works means.

Thanking God is not work. Giving back what he gave will cost you your life, either in reality or figuratively speaking by living your life in perfect submission to his Lordship. His yoke is easy and his burden is light however. It is sin that takes a heavy toll on us in the end. You want to look at Hebrews 4? Check out 8-9:

Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.
Maybe you can tell us when this rest is going to be for the people of God? And if the day of rest is not yet, when are they to work? And who is this referring to?

As for the Pharisees, they were not condemned for their good deeds, Heidi. They were condemned because they were mean, hateful, prideful, nasty scoundrels who stole widows houses, practiced extortion on worshippers of God, demanded the best honors for themselves, killed and persecuted the just and later put people to death for being Christians. They were not trying to follow God, they only wanted to appear to follow God. Jesus called them hypocrites.

quote by Heidi
And until you understand that, then further conversation between us will be a waste of time because you listen to people like Francis instead of the word of God alone.
Yours in Christ,
Heidi

(Oh oh…looks like Heidi is setting us up for her departure from the boards... ) Francis and I agree on many issues. He doesn’t tell me what to think, nor do I think for him. I have learned many things about Catholicism from his posts and have a better understanding of why they do certain things. Some I agree would be nice and quite harmless, others, I still don’t think are. You don’t listen to the word of God alone, either. You have a pile of man made doctrines that you don’t even realize are not backed up by scripture. Which is truly sad considering the hundreds of posts you write.

 

[Drew]

Christianity takes about as much work and effort as thanking someone for rescuing us from a burning fire. That is no effort at all, jsut love and tgratitude.

Heidi: I hope that you do not take my disagreements with you personally. And if it turns out that the position that I critique in the following is not your position (and that I have missed the meaning of your post), than all should understand that what I am saying is not "targeted" at Heidi. And what I am about to say in my next sentence was written after the rest of my post was written: While I stand by what I wrote in the following, it may not really be related to Heidi's point.

As perhaps the reader will anticipate, I believe that the above statement is not only incorrect, but the pervasive grip this idea has on modern evangelicalism is responsible for many people not taking the church seriously.

To be fair to you, though, I do have some empathy for the view that we can reasonably have expected God to have made the Scriptures easy to understand. I think the plain reality, though, is that they are not. For some reason, God has forced us to do a lot of hard intellectually taxing work to understand essential points of doctrine. In my view, the Scriptural teaching on matters of such things are predestination and free will are not discernable from an "atomistic" examination of individual texts. Instead, we need to get the "big picture" in order to get at the truth - the Scriptures are not a "reference manual where we seek answers in individual snippets of material.

A classic example is the use (and I would claim incorrect use) of material in Romans 9 to support the notion that persons are pre-destined to either heaven or hell. Here is the text in question:

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

I think that a proper analysis of this text, informed by the "big picture" is this: God has pre-destined ethnic Israel to destruction in service of his grand covenant purposes. I will not argue the point here. I simply want to express the view that a "superficial" reading of this text has probably lead people to believe in the notion that God pre-destines individuals to Heaven or hell. While such a position might be supported elsewhere in the Scriptures (and I think it isn't), it is not supported here.

So the truth is often much more subtle than we expect.