TOP MUSLIM SCHOLAR DEBATES EX-MUSLIM

[Gabe]

In 2006 Dr Ali Sina (an ex-Muslim and founder of secular site FaithFreedom international) engaged in a serious debate with Javed Ahmad Ghamidi (one of the worlds top and Pakistani 'state appointed' Islamic scholars) and Dr Kalid Zaheer (Professor of Islamic studies and ethics) via e-mail.

The aim of the debate was for Javid Ghamidi and Dr Kalid Zaheer to defend the many charges that Ali Sina (a well known critic of Islam) has made against Islam and its founder Mohammad.

Shortly after the debate commenced, the Pakistani goverment banned faithfreedom.org (the site that this debate was being posted on for all to read.) Dr Sina's request that this ongoing debate be published on Javed Ghamidi's own site (so people in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia may read) was at first ignored and then denied.

The debate covers many topics regarding the Islamic scriptures (Quran and Hadiths) including the commands that call for THE KILLING OF ALL INFIDELS (something which i have always said is contained within the Islamic scriptures and if you read them you cannot fail to see them. page 176-180) the reasons why PEDOPHILIA IS THE ACCEPTED NORM in some Islamic states and the Qurans incompatability and inferiority to the much older Holy Bible and its concept of God.

Ali Sina has offered the reward of $50,000 (and to take down his site with an apology) to anyone who can show him that Islam is a true religion or at the very least show that his charges against Mohammad are unfounded, so far the money has gone unclaimed.

Syed Yousaf Bin (the Chief patron of the Ulema Board, in Hyderabad) has issued a Fatwa against Dr Sina for the amount of 1,000,000 rupees

I have not read all of the debate yet, but please remember that these three individuals possibly posess more knowledge of the Islamic sciptures than all of us combined.

You can download the debate 'Probing Islam' and many others in PDF format for free from faithfreedom internationals homepage.

http://www.faithfreedom.org


Once you have read the debate, feel free to post your thoughts.

PS- i would also like to add that Ali Sina is not a Christian, as far as i can tell he is an atheist who see's no problem with peoples religious beliefs as long as they do not encite hatred of others

God bless

 

[Guest]

Hello,

Atheists are the worst. Look what happened in World War 2. He has chosen misguidance over guidance, what a loss. These people are sad, some of them just do it for the money...hey lets write a book against Islam. They will understand when they are in there grave.

I'm a Muslim.

 

[therealsuperman64]

To tell you the truth, Muslims aren't all that good either.

 

[Gabe]

Hello,

Atheists are the worst. Look what happened in World War 2. He has chosen misguidance over guidance, what a loss. These people are sad, some of them just do it for the money...hey lets write a book against Islam. They will understand when they are in there grave.

I'm a Muslim.

Yes.........I kinda guessed.

What's your problem with atheists and how have you come to the conclusion that they are 'sad' and the 'worst''?

Is it by any chance because the Quran says so, is it by any chance because the Quran places atheists and faiths like Hinduism lower than the hated Jews and Christians and thinks that they are not even worthy of life?

How does world war 2 make atheists any worse than the 'Christians' during the Crusades or the Muslims who conquered and converted most of the east through the sword? Or the thousands of terrorist attacks that are still being committed in the name of Islam? Or how about all the Christian men, women and children in the east who are being kidnapped, molested, raped and killed on a daily basis by Muslims?

Btw, I'm sure every atheist on this forum prefers to be 'misguided' than be guided by hate.

PS- have you anything constructive to add to the debate that these top Islamic scholars may have 'forgotten' to mention in their feeble attempts at disproving Ali Sina's 'misguided' claims?

 

[therealsuperman64]

Exactly, none of us including jews, muslims, christians, etc. are worthy of life. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the problem with athiest is that they refuse to believe anything, whether it is guided by hate or not. That doesn't mean that they're lower than anyone else because there is only one way, one truth, and one life. It just means that they put no value on human life and they're basically living with no hope and that's just a shame.

 

[Gabe]

Exactly, none of us including jews, muslims, christians, etc. are worthy of life. We all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the problem with athiest is that they refuse to believe anything, whether it is guided by hate or not. That doesn't mean that they're lower than anyone else because there is only one way, one truth, and one life. It just means that they put no value on human life and they're basically living with no hope and that's just a shame.

I do not agree that atheists put no value on human life (and certainly not any less of a value than a deity fearing Muslim does), they are all different from one another and have differing morals which have absolutely nothing to do with being atheists, some are good and some are bad, some hate and ridicule the religious and some do not.

I'd much prefer to live my life believing in nothing of a spiritual nature than be a party to something as evil and opressive as the doctrines of Islam. Ahmed is doing what most individuals do when trying to 'defend' the Islamic faith, they take the focus off Islam by insulting the belief (or unbelief) of the critic. He has failed to make any relevant comments to the OP because i very much doubt he has any.

 

[Pogo]

Gabriel –

Thanks for the post and the link!

It appears that, like Salman Rushdie, Ali Sina also now has a bounty on his head.

What are the chances that any Christian would risk the same punishment, if they were to, say, engage a Muslim co-worker in a discussion of Christianity vs Islam, where the Muslim may come to feel ‘painted-into-a-corner’, if he had to publicly face the flaws of Islam?

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Guest]

Whats your problem with Atheists and how have you come to the conclusion that they are 'sad' and the 'worst'?

Ok there is bad people in every society, but there has not been a worser atrocity than WW2, which was not influenced by religion, but by the lack of it.

How does world war 2 make Atheists any worse than the 'Christians' during the Crusades or the muslims who conquered and converted most of the east through the sword? Or the thousands of terrorist attacks that are still being commited in the name of islam? Or how about all the Christian men, women and children in the east who are being kidnapped, molested, raped and killed on a daily basis by muslims?

Muslims scholars have condemned these attacks. Remember Muslims are dying in these attacks, and its not any different if a bomb drops on there head is it?

Btw, i'm sure every Atheist on this forum prefers to be 'misguided' than be guided by hate.

As in what you wanted to achieve by posting this?

 

[Gabe]

Whats your problem with Atheists and how have you come to the conclusion that they are 'sad' and the 'worst'?

Ok there is bad people in every society, but there has not been a worser atrocity than WW2, which was not influenced by religion, but by the lack of it.

You have not answered my question, you have just dodged it: how does WW2 make atheists any worse than Christians or Muslims? How have you come to the conclusion that they are "sad" "the worst" and "mis-guided". You will also find that most of the attroceties commited by Muslims are BECAUSE of their religion and that the world at present would be a better and safer place if they lacked it.

How does world war 2 make Atheists any worse than the 'Christians' during the Crusades or the muslims who conquered and converted most of the east through the sword? Or the thousands of terrorist attacks that are still being commited in the name of islam? Or how about all the Christian men, women and children in the east who are being kidnapped, molested, raped and killed on a daily basis by muslims?

Muslims scholars have condemned these attacks. Remember Muslims are dying in these attacks, and its not any different if a bomb drops on there head is it?

Once again, you are dodging my question and shifting the focus onto something else. I was not talking of a paticular country and its war tactics (the American Army is NOT a Christian Army and 2 wrongs do not make a right), i was talking of religious terror attacks and the persecution of your OWN people, just because they do not believe in Islam. Also, i think you will find that the number of Muslim's that actualy speak-out against terror attacks and persecution of non-believers is disgracefully low and if applied to any other faith (or even atheists) would be unacceptable

Btw, i'm sure every Atheist on this forum prefers to be 'misguided' than be guided by hate.

As in what you wanted to achieve by posting this?

and what is it exactly that YOU are trying to achieve by attacking atheists (who happen to be ex-Muslims) probably with more knowledge of the quran than yourself, instead of commenting on the OP? Is this possibly an attempt by you to discredit him before anyone on this forum has actualy read what he has to say and dismiss his views purely because of his un-belief?.....and also to ignore the fact that Ali Sina has yet to be proven wrong by ANY Muslim? And because of this he has a fatwa issued against him and his site has been banned in several Islamic states?

Atheist's are not stupid and i doubt many would need me to tell them that a convertion to Islam would go against most if not all of their moral code's. I am just interested in knowing how you find that they are sad and misguided, is it because they are more outspoken than others at pointing out the truth's regarding Islam and it's ridiculous commands? Many atheist's condemn Christianity but i see no need in insulting them or using scare tactics against them like "you'll see when you're in your grave". If i thought that it were a requirement of atheist's to insult differing beliefs, i too would condemn them but this is not the case, as you well know.

God bless

 

[Guest]

1) You have not answered my question, you have just dodged it: how does WW2 make Atheists any worse than Christians or Muslims? How have you come to the conclusion that they are "sad" "the worst" and "mis-guided"

I'm sorry, i didn't mean all atheists. But this guy who i think, please correct me if i am wrong is a apostate and his purpose is just to cause trouble.

2) Once again, you are dodging my question and shifting the focus onto something else. I was not talking of a paticular country and its war tactics (the American Army is NOT a Christian Army and 2 wrongs do not make a right), i was talking of religious terror attacks and the persecution of your OWN people, just because they do not believe in islam. Also, i think you will find that the number of muslim's that actualy speak-out against terror attacks and persecution of non-believers is disgracefully low and if applied to any other faith (or even Atheists) would be unacceptable

In your opinion, It is a Christian army, and a Christian government. Didn't Bush say 'God' told him to go to war, and Mr Blair i think said something on the same lines?

3) and what is it exactly that YOU are trying to achieve by attacking Atheists (who happen to be ex-muslims) probably with more knowledge of the quran than yourself, instead of commenting on the OP? Is this possibly to try and ignore the fact that Ali Sina has yet to be proven wrong by ANY muslim? And because of this he has a fatwa issued against him and his site has been banned in several islamic states?

-Not all atheists are ex Muslims. Theres actually more ex Christian atheists i believe.
-Having knowledge, implementing that knowledge and distorting are all different.
-Its a good thing that his website has been banned by a few Islamic states. Its a shame its not all.

Atheist's are not stupid and i doubt many would need me to tell them that a convertion to islam would go against most if not all of their moral code's. I am just interested in knowing how you find that they are sad and misguided, is it because they are more outspoken than others at pointing out the truth's regarding islam and it's ridiculous commands? Many Atheist's condemn Christianity but i see no need in insulting them or using scare tactics against them like "you'll see when you're in your grave". If i thought that it were a requirement of Atheist's to insult differing beliefs, i too would condemn them but this is not the case, as you well know.

I meant him specifically. His attitude is pathetic.

 

[Gabe]

You have not answered my question, you have just dodged it: how does WW2 make Atheists any worse than Christians or Muslims? How have you come to the conclusion that they are "sad" "the worst" and "mis-guided"

I'm sorry, I didn't mean all atheists. But this guy who i think, please correct me if i am wrong is a apostate and his purpose is just to cause trouble.

He is an ex-Muslim turned Atheist. It is only YOUR opinion that his sole purpose is to cause trouble, he apparently sees it rather differently. It is his attempt to educate people about Islam (without the restraints of political correctness) and also to give Muslims a FAIR chance to successfully counter his claims (which I may add, has not been achieved yet.) and anyone who reads your post without bias will see that your remarks were aimed at Atheist in general (and not at Ali Sina) otherwise there would have been no need to condemn Atheists as guilty for the atrocities of WW2. Please stop lying, it does not reflect well on Islam in general.

Once again, you are dodging my question and shifting the focus onto something else. I was not talking of a particular country and its war tactics (the American Army is NOT a Christian Army and 2 wrongs do not make a right), I was talking of religious terror attacks and the persecution of your OWN people, just because they do not believe in Islam. Also, I think you will find that the number of Muslim's that actually speak-out against terror attacks and persecution of non-believers is disgracefully low and if applied to any other faith (or even Atheists) would be unacceptable

In your opinion, It is a Christian army, and a Christian government. Didn't Bush say 'God' told him to go to war, and Mr Blair i think said something on the same lines?

I'm sorry mate but its not my opinion OR anyone else's, ITS A FACT!!! The American and British Armies ARE NOT Christian Armies regardless of the words used by President Bush or Mr Tony Blair. Religion and state are separate in both countries and if the governments were 'Christian' how do you explain abortion laws and Sunday work amongst endless other non-Christian laws?

Even the harshest of Bush critics do not believe his motives for conflict to be religion related, he actually has Muslim friends and the usual accusation is that it was over OIL......nice try though on your part to vilify Christianity as the cause for war and recent ill-feelings towards the east which was actually caused by THE ISLAMIC 9/11 TERRORIST ATTACKS!

and what is it exactly that YOU are trying to achieve by attacking Atheists (who happen to be ex-Muslims) probably with more knowledge of the Quran than yourself, instead of commenting on the OP? Is this possibly to try and ignore the fact that Ali Sina has yet to be proven wrong by ANY Muslim? And because of this he has a fatwa issued against him and his site has been banned in several Islamic states?

-Not all atheists are ex Muslims. Theres actually more ex Christian atheists i believe.

I'm not stupid and I most certainly am aware that all Atheists are not ex-Muslims. I may not have made it clear enough for you but If you re-read my post I'm sure you and everyone else would have realised that I was referring to ex-Muslims turned Atheists, who choose to speak out against Islam.

LoL, there are more ex-Christians than ex-Muslims? Of course there is! The question one must ask is why? In most Christian majority countries (particularly in Europe) there is no stigma or fear at all attached to having your own opinions and choosing your own faith. While in many Islamic states, it is actually AGAINST THE LAW to leave Islam and it could very likely get you put in jail for years and KILLED! obviously you know all this but would rather not mention it.

btw, Christianity is also the fastest growing faith in the worldand it has achieved this without the aid of the alarmingly fast birth-rates you will find amongst Muslim families. I have read somewhere that Christians in the UK have on average 1.5 children while Muslims in the UK have on average 5-6 children

-Having knowledge, implementing that knowledge and distorting are all different.

Yes, and that is what serious debates with Islamic scholars are for.

-Its a good thing that his website has been banned by a few Islamic states. Its a shame its not all.

Yes, I'm sure everyone on this forum is aware of Islamic views towards free-speech.

Atheist's are not stupid and I doubt many would need me to tell them that a convention to Islam would go against most if not all of their moral code's. I am just interested in knowing how you find that they are sad and misguided, is it because they are more outspoken than others at pointing out the truth's regarding Islam and it's ridiculous commands? Many Atheist's condemn Christianity but i see no need in insulting them or using scare tactics against them like "you'll see when you're in your grave". If I thought that it were a requirement of Atheist's to insult differing beliefs, I too would condemn them but this is not the case, as you well know.

I meant him specifically. His attitude is pathetic.

As I have already pointed out, your comments were aimed at Atheists in general and not just at Ali Sina. Your opinion on his attitude is just that: your opinion. I'm sure a lot of Christians, Muslims and Atheists have attitudes that stink, that does not mean that what they say is untrue.

Once again (and for the last time) you dodge any questions you find 'uncomfortable' and pick and choose which parts you think are safe to answer (sometimes with bare-faced lies) did I mention that a Muslim is permitted to lie if it is to protect Islam?

PS- Why are we even having this debate about Christians and Atheists? This topic is about a debate that has taken place regarding the Islamic 'faith' so why not keep your posts relevant to the OP and avoid insulting other beliefs in your attempt at clouding peoples judgement of THAT debate?

 

[Guest]

1) He is an ex-muslim turned Atheist. It is only YOUR opinion that his sole purpose is to cause trouble, he apparently see's it rather differently. It is his attempt to educate people about islam (without the restraints of political correctness) and also to give muslims a FAIR chance to successfully counter his claims (which i may add, has not been achieved yet.) and anyone who reads your post without bias will see that your remarks were aimed at Atheist in general (and not at Ali Sina) otherwise there would have been no need to condemn Atheists as guilty for the attroceties of WW2. Please stop lying, it does not reflect well on islam in general.

So now there’s no such thing as blasphemy? Please grow up. I didn’t mean atheists in general. I said sorry but you don’t seem to understand that, instead you like telling me what I have to believe.

It doesn’t reflect nicely on Christians the way your attitude is.

2) I'm sorry mate but its not my opinion OR anyone elses, ITS A FACT!!! The American and British Armies ARE NOT Christian Armies regardless of the words used by President Bush or Mr Tony Blair. Religion and state are seperate in both countries and if the goverments were 'Christian' how do you explain abortion laws and Sunday work amongst endless other non-Christian laws?

Even the harshest of Bush critics do not believe his motives for conflict to be religion related, he actualy has muslim freinds and the usual accusation is that it was over OIL......nice try though on your part to villify Christianity as the cause for war and recent ill-feelings towards the east which was actualy caused by THE ISLAMIC 9/11 TERRORIST ATTACKS!

Led by Christian leaders, that is a fact.

Answer this question of mine. Is interest permissible in Christianity? What i am referring to is bank interest etc.

9/11 - inside job. If not let them hold a public inquiry. Same for 7/7. But there scared to do that.

3a) I'm not stupid and i most certainly am aware that all Atheists are not ex-muslims. I may not have made it clear enough for you but If you re-read my post i'm sure you and everyone else would have realised that i was refering to ex-muslims turned Atheists, who choose to speak out against islam.

LoL, there are more ex-Christians than ex-muslims? Of course there is! The question one must ask is why? In most Christian majority countries (paticularly in Europe) there is no stigma or fear at all attached to having your own opinions and choosing your own faith. While in many islamic states, it is actualy AGAINST THE LAW to leave islam and it could very likely get you put in jail for years and KILLED! obviously you know all this but would rather not mention it.

Well there is only a handful of Islamic country's now who have capital punishment. And i am not going to hide behind the bush, but generally it is the death punishment. But personally i dont know the full details. Like from what i know, for men i think they have three days to return to Islam, and for women, they will have no death punishment but only a jail sentence.

But you cant play that card that here in the west it is a free society. One second your saying state and religion is separate and the next... Islam is growing in the west.

Our mosques are over flooding, while the Churches are being closed down. Now you tell me why?

 

[Gabe]

AHMED, before you even begin to read my reply, please note:

- I will NOT be answering any further posts made by you which have nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. This thread was not intended as a debate thread. All i asked were for people to post their thoughts and comments in regards to the debate between Ali Sina and the Islamic scholars.

- You have repeatedly ignored my requests to stay on topic and stop posting irrelevant questions which i have repeatedly answered, question by question and point by point.

- You have repeatedly ignored most of the points i have raised in answer to your questions and only answer when you feel it is safe (and often with a lie.)

- If you continue to stray off-topic, then i will inform a Moderator who will take appropriete action.

- I am doing you the courtesy of replying in full to you last post.

He is an ex-muslim turned Atheist. It is only YOUR opinion that his sole purpose is to cause trouble, he apparently see's it rather differently. It is his attempt to educate people about islam (without the restraints of political correctness) and also to give muslims a FAIR chance to successfully counter his claims (which i may add, has not been achieved yet.) and anyone who reads your post without bias will see that your remarks were aimed at Atheist in general (and not at Ali Sina) otherwise there would have been no need to condemn Atheists as guilty for the attroceties of WW2. Please stop lying, it does not reflect well on islam in general.

So now there’s no such thing as blasphemy? Please grow up. I didn’t mean atheists in general. I said sorry but you don’t seem to understand that, instead you like telling me what I have to believe.

You WERE commenting on all atheists in general and no matter how many times you lie or say sorry, it does not alter the wording of your original post or your personal feelings towards atheists. There is nothing wrong or childish of me bringing peoples attention to your blatant lies.

IT IS YOU AHMED, WHO IS IN NEED OF GROWING UP!!!

It doesn’t reflect nicely on Christians the way your attitude is.

On the contrary, i think it reflects rather well on me. I find it offensive when someone insults atheist (or any other group of people) without cause. Which is why i usualy criticise the Islamic scriptures and its application in eastern societies, not the people.

I'm sorry mate but its not my opinion OR anyone elses, ITS A FACT!!! The American and British Armies ARE NOT Christian Armies regardless of the words used by President Bush or Mr Tony Blair. Religion and state are seperate in both countries and if the goverments were 'Christian' how do you explain abortion laws and Sunday work amongst endless other non-Christian laws?

Even the harshest of Bush critics do not believe his motives for conflict to be religion related, he actualy has muslim freinds and the usual accusation is that it was over OIL......nice try though on your part to villify Christianity as the cause for war and recent ill-feelings towards the east which was actualy caused by THE ISLAMIC 9/11 TERRORIST ATTACKS!

Led by Christian leaders, that is a fact.

And what is that fact supposed to prove? Their faith is something personal between them and their God, not the state. They are heads of civilised western countries, what did you expect, Islamic leaders?

Answer this question of mine. Is interest permissible in Christianity? What i am referring to is bank interest etc.

I'm assuming by the mere fact that you have asked me this random question, that you do not believe it to be permisible. Who cares and how is that relevant?

Count the number of Muslim home-owners in the UK and the number of Islamic Mortgages taken out in the Uk. The figures do not add up, i should know, i was a Mortgage Advisor for two years and arranged many mortgages for Muslim clients. Bad Muslim, shame on you.

9/11 - inside job. If not let them hold a public inquiry. Same for 7/7. But there scared to do that.

If this anti-American Islam-freindly conspiracy theory were to be true then all that it would serve to prove is the US goverments greed for oil. It has nothing to do with Christianity.

Quick Ahmed.....run! That incredibly clever mastermind of a genius Bush, would have no doubt caught on to the fact that his dastidly plan for world domination has been uncovered by a Muslim named Ahmed and is at this very moment sending out his evil free-thinking American henchmen.

I'm not stupid and i most certainly am aware that all Atheists are not ex-muslims. I may not have made it clear enough for you but If you re-read my post i'm sure you and everyone else would have realised that i was refering to ex-muslims turned Atheists, who choose to speak out against islam.

LoL, there are more ex-Christians than ex-muslims? Of course there is! The question one must ask is why? In most Christian majority countries (paticularly in Europe) there is no stigma or fear at all attached to having your own opinions and choosing your own faith. While in many islamic states, it is actualy AGAINST THE LAW to leave islam and it could very likely get you put in jail for years and KILLED! obviously you know all this but would rather not mention it.

Well there is only a handful of Islamic country's now who have capital punishment. And i am not going to hide behind the bush, but generally it is the death punishment. But personally i dont know the full details. Like from what i know, for men i think they have three days to return to Islam, and for women, they will have no death punishment but only a jail sentence.

Thank you for confirming something that i already know. Can you imagine how much courage and faith in Christ (or whatever else they may believe in)it must take for these people to declare their beliefs, even in the states that do not murder them? These eastern men women and children truly are an inspiration to all in the west who believe in free speach, free thought and the right to take a stand for what you believe in. Btw i think you meant "beating around the bush" not hiding behind it.

But you cant play that card that here in the west it is a free society.

I was not playing any card, i was simply answering a point YOU had raised stating that there are less ex-Muslims than ex-Christians.

I'm sure that if the same law was in place in the US and Europe, there would also be a lot less Christian de-converts.

Frankly, i'm disgusted that Muslims can talk about this so matter-of-factly. Where is the outrage and condemnation from the 'civilised' and 'peaceful' Islamic people over these barbaric and bigoted laws? This is not the middle-ages, its the year 2008 AD.

One second your saying state and religion is separate and the next... Islam is growing in the west.

This comment of yours does not even make any sense, what has the seperation of state and religion have to do with our abused immigration laws?

Our mosques are over flooding....

....because:
- Generaly Muslims procreate like rabbits.
- It is seen as a requirment for a Muslim male to attend mosque on friday and would bring him great shame if he repeatedly did not.
- there are not enough mosque's and the ones that are available are mostly small house mosque's.
- Muslims procreate like rabbits (I thought that was worth a second mention.)

.... while the Churches are being closed down. Now you tell me why?

....because:
- It is not a requirment for a Christian to attend church. Many Christians now choose to worship at home.
- there are far too many churches for a multi-cultured society (eg- the city that i live in has a high concentration of Muslims but while there are only six mosques, there are over 37 ACTIVE purpose-built churches.)
- Christian numbers have fallen in many western countries.

Before you die of joy and spend the rest of eternity in heaven with 72 virgins, please note:

THE TOTAL NUMBER OF CHRISTIANS WORLD-WIDE IS RISING, NOT FALLING,

this is due to the large number of converts in Africa, Asia etc. Who are leaving Islam (much to their peril) and embracing Christianity.

Please stick to the OP!

God bless

 

[Guest]

Atheists are the worst. Look what happened in World War 2. He has chosen misguidance over guidance, what a loss. These people are sad, some of them just do it for the money...hey lets write a book against Islam. They will understand when they are in there grave.

Heres my first post. I have said sorry about the first sentence which you don't seem to accept, the same way you made a mistake which i'm not forcing down your throat. You can clearly see i am referring to the article you posted. I compared him to the fools of WW2 because it was not religion the led the Nazi's to commit those atrocities but them believing in the science of eugenics, i.e that they are a superior race. And they believed that the Jews were an inferior race etc etc. This was based on science not religion, the lack of believing in God.

Yes.........i kinda guessed.

Whats your problem with Atheists and how have you come to the conclusion that they are 'sad' and the 'worst'?

Is it by any chance because the quran says so, is it by any chance because the quran places Atheists and faiths like Hinduism lower than the hated Jews and Christians and thinks that they are not even worthy of life?

How does world war 2 make Atheists any worse than the 'Christians' during the Crusades or the muslims who conquered and converted most of the east through the sword? Or the thousands of terrorist attacks that are still being commited in the name of islam? Or how about all the Christian men, women and children in the east who are being kidnapped, molested, raped and killed on a daily basis by muslims?

Btw, i'm sure every Atheist on this forum prefers to be 'misguided' than be guided by hate.

PS- have you anything constructive to add to the debate that these top islamic scholars may have 'forgoten' to mention in their feeble attempts at disproving Ali Sina's 'misguided' claims?

God bless

Listen dude, you are the one who started going off topic. Look above this is your first post. I'm only replying to your false accusations!

Ali Sina has offered the reward of $50,000 (and to take down his site with an apology) to anyone who can show him that islam is a true religion or at the very least show that his charges against mohammad are unfounded, so far the money has gone unclaimed.

I have not read all of the debate yet, but please remember that these three individuals possibly posess more knowledge of the islamic sciptures than all of us combined.

You can download the debate 'Probing islam' and many others in PDF format for free from faithfreedom internationals homepage. (scroll to the bottom and click on 'Debate')

http://www.faithfreedom.org


Once you have read the debate, feel free to post your thoughts.

 

[Gabe]

In 2006 Dr Ali Sina (an ex-Muslim and founder of secular site FaithFreedom international) engaged in a serious debate with Javed Ahmad Ghamidi (one of the worlds top and Pakistani 'state appointed' Islamic scholars) and Dr Kalid Zaheer (Professor of Islamic studies and ethics) via e-mail.

The aim of the debate was for Javid Ghamidi and Dr Kalid Zaheer to defend the many charges that Ali Sina (a well known critic of Islam) has made against Islam and its founder Mohammad.

Shortly after the debate commenced, the Pakistani goverment banned faithfreedom.org (the site that this debate was being posted on for all to read.) Dr Sina's request that this ongoing debate be published on Javed Ghamidi's own site (so people in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia may read) was at first ignored and then denied.

The debate covers many topics regarding the Islamic scriptures (Quran and Hadiths) including the commands that call for THE KILLING OF ALL INFIDELS (something which i have always said is contained within the Islamic scriptures and if you read them you cannot fail to see them. page 176-180) the reasons why PEDOPHILIA IS THE ACCEPTED NORM in some Islamic states and the Qurans incompatability and inferiority to the much older Holy Bible and its concept of God.

Ali Sina has offered the reward of $50,000 (and to take down his site with an apology) to anyone who can show him that Islam is a true religion or at the very least show that his charges against Mohammad are unfounded, so far the money has gone unclaimed.

Syed Yousaf Bin (the Chief patron of the Ulema Board, in Hyderabad) has issued a Fatwa against Dr Sina for the amount of 1,000,000 rupees

I have not read all of the debate yet, but please remember that these three individuals possibly posess more knowledge of the Islamic sciptures than all of us combined.

You can download the debate 'Probing Islam' and many others in PDF format for free from faithfreedom internationals homepage.

http://www.faithfreedom.org


Once you have read the debate, feel free to post your thoughts.

PS- i would also like to add that Ali Sina is not a Christian, as far as i can tell he is an atheist who see's no problem with peoples religious beliefs as long as they do not encite hatred of others

God bless

^ mate, that is my first post, not the one you quoted.

It was you who strayed from the OP by attacking atheists or by "taking the focus of the OP and putting it onto the Nazi's and somehow connecting their actions to atheists like Ali Sina who have nothing whatsoever to do with eugenics" whatever you prefer to call it, it doesnt make a difference.

Btw, thanks for the link.

God bless

EDIT: I have just had a quick look at the link you posted (have not read anything yet) but it appears to me that this has nothing to do with the debate between Dr Ali Sina, Javed Ghamidi and Dr Kalid Zahir. Although it may be of interest, it also is off-top. This site also attacks Christianity, which (if I'm not mistaken) is against this sites TOS.

 

[Guest]

Sorry i meant your second post. But people can judge for themselves who initiated this debate.You just took it too far.

 

[Gabe]

Sorry i meant your second post. But people can judge for themselves who initiated this debate.You just took it too far.

Thank you, thats fine with me. I wish you well

God bless,
Gabriel

 

[therealsuperman64]

Atheism has no truth and Islam is a lack of truth. No truth plus a lack of truth gets you no where and that's exactly where this debate is going.

 

[Gabe]

Atheism has no truth and Islam is a lack of truth. No truth plus a lack of truth gets you no where and that's exactly where this debate is going.

Of course you are free to comment as you please but as far as me and Ahmed are concerned, the discussion between us has gone some where and it came to a close almost a week ago.

 

[Guest]

Atheism has no truth and Islam is a lack of truth.

And how did you come to that conclusion. Please tell me what is faith and how is it measured?