Topic #1 . . . "The holy spirit brings men to the truth".

[Deavonreye]

I've been told that "the holy spirit draws men to the truth", . . . that "God gives understanding", . . . and that one can know what the bible is actually saying if the reader is led by the holy spirit.

If this is the case, then I find it interesting that there are so many heated debates within christianity [as seen on this forum]. I've seen many threads that have various christian sects debating another sect about how they are right and the other side wrong, . . . they produce scripture to back up their side [always within their own ability to 'read it in context'], . . . and at the same time, their opponent shows how they are wrong, producing scripture that THEY use for their side. Both claiming the other side isn't "reading the bible correctly". The debates go on and on.

If the bible was true, AND it was true that the holy spirit guides all men to the truth, it is my opinion that there would only be ONE denomination. Each person would come to the same conclusion, . . . and because it was divinely inspired, what would be discovered would be irresistable in it's conclusion.

I see the bible as a book written by men, with their faults intact, talking about a god they believed in, who may be a real person. And in this book, their error was recorded. Error in what they claimed was "direction from god", yet every so often getting something right. But this [their error] is what causes today's fights over theology. This is, of course, only my thoughts on it.

 

[smaller]

I've been told that "the holy spirit draws men to the truth", . . . that "God gives understanding", . . . and that one can know what the bible is actually saying if the reader is led by the holy spirit.

If this is the case, then I find it interesting that there are so many heated debates within christianity [as seen on this forum]. I've seen many threads that have various christian sects debating another sect about how they are right and the other side wrong, . . . they produce scripture to back up their side [always within their own ability to 'read it in context'], . . . and at the same time, their opponent shows how they are wrong, producing scripture that THEY use for their side. Both claiming the other side isn't "reading the bible correctly". The debates go on and on.

If the bible was true, AND it was true that the holy spirit guides all men to the truth, it is my opinion that there would only be ONE denomination. Each person would come to the same conclusion, . . . and because it was divinely inspired, what would be discovered would be irresistable in it's conclusion.

I see the bible as a book written by men, with their faults intact, talking about a god they believed in, who may be a real person. And in this book, their error was recorded. Error in what they claimed was "direction from god", yet every so often getting something right. But this [their error] is what causes today's fights over theology. This is, of course, only my thoughts on it.

You might consider that being led into TRUTH is to expose DIVISION and HATRED within the hearts of those so exposed to those Words and Spirit.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division

In the open light of FACTS that you put forth, and in seeing the statements of Jesus, I would have to observe that HE was VERY successful!

jes sayin

s

 

[Deavonreye]

If we were to use the words of Jesus in response to this thread, then one would have to conclude that god wanted people to get the wrong answers . . . in other words, having the holy spirit draw some to UNtruth.

 

[Elijah674]

In Gen. 6:3 you will find the man Preacher Noah preaching along with the STRIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT for 120 years. Being 'LED' is [ONLY AFTER] one ACCEPTS THE STRIVING ONES MESSAGE. Acts 5:32 (see Rom. 8:1 & then verse 14)

And the many church's that your post mention?? It is because they also GRIEVE & finally QUENCH the Holy Spirit away, even way past any 120 years of such, that now Inspiration has them DOCUMENTED in Rev. 17:1-5 as the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH. (with the same fate as the ones outside of the Ark of Gen 6:3) And that is why you see the few there who must leave! Rev. 18:4

Hope that this helps you 'see'.

---Elijah

 

[Deavonreye]

I know what you are saying. I'm aware of the argument. What I'm wanting to point out is that . . . when each group has scripture to back up their side, and believe they have received inspiration. . . . yet it differs from another's doctrine, . . . who is the one who didn't receive the right inspriation? Each person will accuse the other of being wrong.

For example, the debate over [and let's not actually debate it here] whether or not "some were made for destruction" vs. "all men have an equal ability to be saved". Both can't be right. . . . both have equally conviction . . . .

 

[smaller]

I know what you are saying. I'm aware of the argument. What I'm wanting to point out is that . . . when each group has scripture to back up their side, and believe they have received inspiration. . . . yet it differs from another's doctrine, . . . who is the one who didn't receive the right inspriation? Each person will accuse the other of being wrong.

For example, the debate over [and let's not actually debate it here] whether or not "some were made for destruction" vs. "all men have an equal ability to be saved". Both can't be right. . . . both have equally conviction . . . .

What you write of is a large part of the difficulties with text.

It is and remains very unlikely that any two people are going to have an identical reflection of the text. We are all 'factually' individually subjective in nature.

This reality comes OUT in all who pick up the text.

In MANY PEOPLE that 'subjectivity' turns into megalomania and IDOL WORSHIP (of doctrines.) I think L. Frank Baum in The Wizard of Oz captured this caricature quite nicely. Outsiders see 'christianity' exactly that way and so do I when it collapses into that 'type' of working. There is simply no benefit in associations with such holders. All are proven FRAIL SINNERS when the 'curtains' are pulled back. And the text says as much.

What is even more interesting is that in THAT REFLECTION we do see what actually IS in peoples hearts, and that is even more valuable information to the viewers.

There are also a great deal of very beneficial reflections available to those who are not led by their own 'inner' megalomaniac and are rather led to see the reality of that working of the megalomaniac IN THEM and are then led to AVOID that trap within.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Free]

I've been told that "the holy spirit draws men to the truth", . . . that "God gives understanding", . . . and that one can know what the bible is actually saying if the reader is led by the holy spirit.

If this is the case, then I find it interesting that there are so many heated debates within christianity [as seen on this forum]. I've seen many threads that have various christian sects debating another sect about how they are right and the other side wrong, . . . they produce scripture to back up their side [always within their own ability to 'read it in context'], . . . and at the same time, their opponent shows how they are wrong, producing scripture that THEY use for their side. Both claiming the other side isn't "reading the bible correctly". The debates go on and on.

If the bible was true, AND it was true that the holy spirit guides all men to the truth, it is my opinion that there would only be ONE denomination. Each person would come to the same conclusion, . . . and because it was divinely inspired, what would be discovered would be irresistable in it's conclusion.

I see the bible as a book written by men, with their faults intact, talking about a god they believed in, who may be a real person. And in this book, their error was recorded. Error in what they claimed was "direction from god", yet every so often getting something right. But this [their error] is what causes today's fights over theology. This is, of course, only my thoughts on it.

If only it were that easy.

Firstly, there is the difficulty of translation. It can be difficult enough translating modern languages never mind ancient ones. Secondly, there is also the difficulty of interpretation. There are different levels of interpretation and some arguments are actually between different levels. Also, everyone brings their life experiences into interpreting and understanding the Bible. And thirdly, in general people have a strong aversion to changing their beliefs, whether theological or otherwise. People want to be right, they don't want to be wrong and often will not change their beliefs even after sufficient evidence has been given showing their beliefs to be incorrect in some way.

 

[Deavonreye]

Free and smaller, I agree that these are factors when you have people attempting to understand a book written in a different time/place/culture. The main point of this thread has to do with the holy spirits supposed role IN what they should know. What I'm saying about it is. . . because two people can promote a serious doctrine [whether or not everyone can be saved] that conflicts, show scripture to prove their side, and argue about it ad nauseum.

 

[smaller]

Free and smaller, I agree that these are factors when you have people attempting to understand a book written in a different time/place/culture. The main point of this thread has to do with the holy spirits supposed role IN what they should know. What I'm saying about it is. . . because two people can promote a serious doctrine [whether or not everyone can be saved] that conflicts, show scripture to prove their side, and argue about it ad nauseum.

I 'personally' believe ALL of those conflicts can be and are resolved when honesty comes to the table. Few really want to be or CAN BE as honest as we should be about 'scriptural matters.'

Your claim that both sides [of any given argument/debate setup] construct scripture sets and interpretations (usually at the expense of not dealing with the opposing sets or altering and inserting things not really there in the opposing sets) and then making camps and perpetually warring IS an open and known fact.

You claim then that the Holy Spirit is NOT working TRUTH.

I would claim that the Holy Spirit IS working an EXACT TRUTH in all such people, showing us ALL that we do indeed HAVE SIN and that SIN separates us all not only from each others but from God.

All of these matters are reflective of the DESIRE to be LIKE GOD, a SIN that was inserted into the hearts of mankind by SATAN and that SIN continues to work in ALL who remain under that spirit of DISOBEDIENCE.

The Holy Spirit will CONTINUE to keep such operations in DIVISION.

And I thank God for that DIVISION. Heaven forbid that such confusions would EVER take a seat over another.

God has PROMISED DIVISION and NO PEACE to such operators and The Holy Spirit DOES continue to ACTIVELY OPERATE to keep these operators SEPARATE, ARGUING and DIVISIVE.

There you have OPEN ACTION, foretold by the scriptures...and working.

30,000 megalomaniac churches (or whatever #) can NOT all be GOD. That much is A FACT. I say NONE of them are. This is also A FACT.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Free]

Free and smaller, I agree that these are factors when you have people attempting to understand a book written in a different time/place/culture. The main point of this thread has to do with the holy spirits supposed role IN what they should know. What I'm saying about it is. . . because two people can promote a serious doctrine [whether or not everyone can be saved] that conflicts, show scripture to prove their side, and argue about it ad nauseum.

And my point is that all those things play a role in one's understanding, despite what Scripture says about the Holy Spirit leading men into the truth. We still have free will and human nature which interfere with the Holy Spirit leading us into truth. Interpreting the Bible isn't easy and many don't study it at all.

No where is it stated in Scripture that once one becomes a Christian one will automatically come into a full knowledge of the truth or that we will know it all in this life. In fact, Paul states in 1 Cor 13 that now, in this earthly life, we only "know in part" and won't know fully until Jesus's return.

 

[Deavonreye]

I bring this up because I'm expected to believe a certain way, yet that "way" is indetermined, due TO all the fighting between those who are supposed to have "the truth". Why does it matter? Because if the bible IS the way one has to understand god, yet even those who are well learned in it argue its meanings, why should I believe that either of them are right? Think about this. . . IF the book was perfect, inspired perfectly, allowed to be translated perfectly to where today each person came to the same conclusion, . . . how much further along would "the gospel" be . . . and how many more people would come to believe? "...not the author of confusion"?

 

[smaller]

I bring this up because I'm expected to believe a certain way, yet that "way" is indetermined, due TO all the fighting between those who are supposed to have "the truth". Why does it matter? Because if the bible IS the way one has to understand god, yet even those who are well learned in it argue its meanings, why should I believe that either of them are right? Think about this. . . IF the book was perfect, inspired perfectly, allowed to be translated perfectly to where today each person came to the same conclusion, . . . how much further along would "the gospel" be . . . and how many more people would come to believe? "...not the author of confusion"?

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

Believers vainly try to FRAME these matters.

It can not be done. There is NO LETTER that can bring these things into the heart. IF you look there, you will find them to have been already placed and accessible to YOU personally, and without any other persons impositions or limitations.

s

 

[stovebolts]

D,

2 Timothy 2:14-15 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

What you may see within forums are those who are more about subverting the hearers, than to show themselves approved unto God. The word pride comes to mind

The spirit does bring men to the truth, but it does so by way of knocking, seeking and asking... The way I see it, life is a journey.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

So the question is, are we asking, seeking and knocking? Or do we all claim utter truth upon ALL matters biblical?

 

[Free]

I bring this up because I'm expected to believe a certain way, yet that "way" is indetermined, due TO all the fighting between those who are supposed to have "the truth". Why does it matter?

True, there are certain things one must believe in order to be a Christian, a follower of Christ.

But I suppose one thing to be said about fighting over doctrine is it means people could be, at some level, taking truth and claims to truth seriously. That certainly was much of it in the early church. Of course, msot of it these days is done in a destructive way rather than in a way which would help facilitate coming to an agreement. Most of this infighting is due to human nature--pride in wanting to be right and the difficulty in admitting that one is wrong and correcting one's beliefs.

Because if the bible IS the way one has to understand god, yet even those who are well learned in it argue its meanings, why should I believe that either of them are right?

You have to remember that there is still much that is agreed upon. Disagreements between scholars and the learned merely show the difficulty in interpreting and understanding a collection of books that are 1900+ years old. It is possible that none of them are right and it is possible that one or more are right.

Think about this. . . IF the book was perfect, inspired perfectly, allowed to be translated perfectly to where today each person came to the same conclusion, . . . how much further along would "the gospel" be . . . and how many more people would come to believe? "...not the author of confusion"?

Disagreement does not mean that something isn't true nor that Scripture is not inspired. One cannot translate it perfectly simply because the differences in language do not permit it. That has nothing to do with inspiration or lack thereof.

 

[Adstar]

I've been told that "the holy spirit draws men to the truth", . . . that "God gives understanding", . . . and that one can know what the bible is actually saying if the reader is led by the holy spirit.

True. But there are simple "introductory" truths. And there are truths that are core truths needing to be accepted for salvation.

If this is the case, then I find it interesting that there are so many heated debates within christianity [as seen on this forum]. I've seen many threads that have various christian sects debating another sect about how they are right and the other side wrong, . . . they produce scripture to back up their side [always within their own ability to 'read it in context'], . . . and at the same time, their opponent shows how they are wrong, producing scripture that THEY use for their side. Both claiming the other side isn't "reading the bible correctly". The debates go on and on.

But you must be carefull to note wether they are debating Core salvational issues or disputable matters that are not essential to ones salvation. There are a lot of debates on such non-core issues, it is a mistake to think that a disagreement over such things as rapture of second coming timing or similar disagreements are vital issues of salvation importance. They are side issues. The bible states:

1 Corinthians 11
18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

This is not saying that a division is nessecaraly indicating one side is saved and the other side is not saved. But division is nessecary so that the truth can come out.

If the bible was true, AND it was true that the holy spirit guides all men to the truth, it is my opinion that there would only be ONE denomination. Each person would come to the same conclusion, . . . and because it was divinely inspired, what would be discovered would be irresistable in it's conclusion.

"all men"??

Not sure if the Holy Spirit guides any man who has a hatered or is a rejector of the simple Loving Message of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit does guide people into more knowledge of salvation, but if people reject the first baby step beliefs of the Word of God then no more leading of the Holy Spirit will happen for that person.

Think of the revelation of the Holy Spirit like a stairway to God. Each step up is a truth. If one rejects the first step of faith then understanding of and access to the other steps are kept from the seeker.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Elijah674]

In Gen. 6:3 you will find the man Preacher Noah preaching along with the STRIVING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT for 120 years. Being 'LED' is [ONLY AFTER] one ACCEPTS THE STRIVING ONES MESSAGE. Acts 5:32 (see Rom. 8:1 & then verse 14)

And the many church's that your post mention?? It is because they also GRIEVE & finally QUENCH the Holy Spirit away, even way past any 120 years of such, that now Inspiration has them DOCUMENTED in Rev. 17:1-5 as the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH. (with the same fate as the ones outside of the Ark of Gen 6:3) And that is why you see the few there who must leave! Rev. 18:4

Hope that this helps you 'see'.

---Elijah

Me again: In Acts 5
we find that the pre/flood ones all had the preaching & Striving of the Holy Ghost with them. And it never does any good with/out submiting to the STRIVINGS! And this is documented in Acts 5 for the ones who only have the Holy Spirit GIVEN TO THEM!

[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Did you get that?? And Rom. 8:1 only now, finds JUSTIFICATION for these ones that are now [IN CHRIST!] And ALL OF THESE??? Rom. 8:14 finds them 'LED OF THE HOLY SPIRIT'. If they will be??

And one does find that there is the mother whore + her daughters of Rev. 17:1-5 that are documented as lost which just did as they Gen. 4:7 DESIRED! You know, fruit for OBEDIENCE. (like the 7th day Sabbath Requirement replaced with their sun worship 'fruit' offering) Yet all mankind has had equal opportunity! Even see Rom. 2:14-15's gentile ones saved by beholding God in His nature!


--Elijah

 

[Deavonreye]

"all men"??

Not sure if the Holy Spirit guides any man who has a hatered or is a rejector of the simple Loving Message of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit does guide people into more knowledge of salvation, but if people reject the first baby step beliefs of the Word of God then no more leading of the Holy Spirit will happen for that person.

I'm not talking about people being drawn to christianity. I'm talking about doctrine of those IN christianity. There are TOO many denominations. Why? Because they disagree on doctrine. Some of them ARE major doctrines.

 

[Adstar]

I'm not talking about people being drawn to christianity. I'm talking about doctrine of those IN christianity. There are TOO many denominations. Why? Because they disagree on doctrine. Some of them ARE major doctrines.

If they disagree on Core beliefs unto salvation then my friend then at lest one party is not within "Christianity". No matter what they call themselves.

At the core there must be agreement for the Body of Christ is the core. If there is a division over the core beliefs then one of the two position has to be false and one of the two schools of thought must be un-Christian.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Deavonreye]

I think there must be some misunderstanding. The fact that there is ANY disagreement amongst "true christians" means that either 1. one of them is getting wrong information from the holy spirit,...2. one of them isn't as "in tune with the holy spirit" [even though they honestly believe they are],...3. both are only believing what their denomination states as true and no spiritual being is giving anyone any special insight.

I would say that #3 is the most likely.

 

[smaller]

I think there must be some misunderstanding. The fact that there is ANY disagreement amongst "true christians" means that either 1. one of them is getting wrong information from the holy spirit,...2. one of them isn't as "in tune with the holy spirit" [even though they honestly believe they are],...3. both are only believing what their denomination states as true and no spiritual being is giving anyone any special insight.

I would say that #3 is the most likely.

Man, you are hitting on all cylinders.

I might observe as a kicker that the Holy Spirit INTENTIONALLY divides MANKIND.

This too is written of and the workings are clear.

God KEEPS evil in the hearts of mankind SEPARATED and DIVIDED so they do NOT and can NOT coalesce no matter what.

ALL of these groups will NEVER come together.

God Himself sees to that.

There will however also come a day when HONESTY will SHINE from within, and the real enemies of hatred that we ALL carry will be exposed and we will set aside our 'arms' and beat our swords into plowshares, indicitive of DIVIDING our own LAND-BODIES properly. You can take that to the spiritual bank if you want.

This is a promise of the Gospel.

s