Tough Love

[netchaplain]

God condemned man, but that was just the beginning of what His love would show! His intended purpose was not only to condemn, but also to save; and without being guilty of sin man would have never been a part of God’s plan to be in Him, and Him in us. Whatever it takes, we should be willing to do, for the most important we are to deal with are the “infirmities” of the sin nature, from which we are rescued (Ro 8:9), to enter into eternal life with the Father and the Son; which of course is all made possible by Their Holy Spirit (He being Creator of our new birth - Jhn 3:6, 8) who is blessed above all here!

Surely and thankfully, we come to know with joy that “the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” This makes all the trials and difficulties, even the most hurtful ones to be but “a vapor that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away.” As we know, life is but the briefest miniscule of time compared to that which is not time—eternity.

There’s definitely nothing that compares with being right with God, which is heart wrenching to know that most are going to choose ignorance over knowledge, and are going to perish in the ”second death” (May 7:13, 14). It’s the love of God that allows this most sorrowful situation to transpire; to gain the few in comparison to the “many”. One cannot fathom such a thought, but God’s love for even one is so full that He finds great worth if only one were recovered, for which the entirety of heaven “rejoices” (Luk 15:7, 10). God chose all mankind for salvation when He sent the Lord Jesus; but it is definite that most will not choose Him. Though He knew most would not choose His “Way,” tough-love found the believers!

He knows all who will desire to choose Him, and it’s then He gives the faith to do so. God not being “a respect of persons” (Mat 22:16; Luk 20:21; Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1Pe 1:17) means each must choose for themselves! This is evident from the “Tree of knowledge of good and evil”—to the innumerable admonitions of Scriptures which encourages man to choose God (e.g. Deu 30:19; Jos 24:15; Psa 119:30; Pro 1:29).
NC

 

[Tenchi]

God condemned man, but that was just the beginning of what His love would show!

Was it God's love that condemned Man? This is what it seems to me you're indicating here. Am I reading you right?

...without being guilty of sin man would have never been a part of God’s plan to be in Him, and Him in us.

Hmmm...Why do you think our being of guilty of sin is necessary to God's plan? Couldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful God have made a world in which no one sinned?

Whatever it takes, we should be willing to do, for the most important we are to deal with are the “infirmities” of the sin nature, from which we are rescued (Ro 8:9)

I'm puzzled here: If we are rescued from the "infirmities of the sin nature," why should we be willing to deal with them? If, say, I've been rescued from the jaws of a hungry bear, it seems to me this would necessarily mean the jaws of the bear are no longer a threat or problem for me, right? And so, if I've been rescued from the "infirmities of sin," shouldn't those "infirmities" no longer be an issue for me? It doesn't sound here like you think this, though. Am I reading you correctly?

Surely and thankfully, we come to know with joy that “the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” This makes all the trials and difficulties, even the most hurtful ones to be but “a vapor that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away.” As we know, life is but the briefest miniscule of time compared to that which is not time—eternity.

I don't know what your experience with suffering has been, but what you've written here suggests you don't know what it is to endure very severe and persistent pain. When one is in bed, writhing in pain, tears streaming down one's face, the thought that what one is suffering is "but a vapor that appears for a little time" is no comfort at all. Deep pain stretches seconds, making them seem an eternity, confining one's thinking to nothing but itself. I would, then, be very careful about writing the sort of thing you have above. God is not pleased, I think, when we casually diminish the suffering of others, telling them it will all soon vanish - especially if we have yet to be in significant suffering ourselves. In my experience, God has equipped me to speak to the hurting by putting me in the midst of hurt myself. A sobering thought, I think.

There’s definitely nothing that compares with being right with God, which is heart wrenching to know that most are going to choose ignorance over knowledge, and are going to perish in the ”second death” (May 7:13, 14). It’s the love of God that allows this most sorrowful situation to transpire; to gain the few in comparison to the “many”.

It sounds here like you're saying that the love of God is responsible for the terrible end of the majority who spurn Christ and end up in hell. Are you saying God will cast most into the lake of fire simply in order to collect a few for heaven? How is this an expression of God's love? It seems quite the opposite, don't you think - especially if God is all-powerful and thus capable - theoretically, at least - of saving everyone.

God not being “a respect of persons” (Mat 22:16; Luk 20:21; Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1Pe 1:17) means each must choose for themselves! This is evident from the “Tree of knowledge of good and evil”—to the innumerable admonitions of Scriptures which encourages man to choose God (e.g. Deu 30:19; Jos 24:15; Psa 119:30; Pro 1:29).

But God must act to draw people to Himself, right? (John 6:44) He must convict people of their sin and illuminate their hearts and minds to the truth of the Gospel, yes? (John 16:8, 13) God must impart to the sinner the capacity to repent and choose Christ (2 Timothy 2:25) before they can do so, correct? The individual's choice to receive Christ can't be made at all unless God has first acted in these ways to make such a choice possible. Do you agree?

 

[netchaplain]

Was it God's love that condemned Man?

If God did not care that we were in sin or not, He wouldn't care about us at all. He loves us too much not to revel our sin.

Hmmm...Why do you think our being of guilty of sin is necessary to God's plan? [To know good and evil is to experience sin, in order to know his holiness.

Couldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful God have made a world in which no one sinned? [But he didn't make it where there is no sin, yet. We must first experience sin in order to know His holiness.]

I'm puzzled here: If we are rescued from the "infirmities of the sin nature," why should we be willing to deal with them?

Rescue only means removing the guilt and dominion of sin, but not the presence of sin (the old man). We are to continue to deal with sin for our continued learning and conforming.

If, say, I've been rescued from the jaws of a hungry bear, it seems to me this would necessarily mean the jaws of the bear are no longer a threat or problem for me, right?

Self (old man), Satan and society are no longer a problem for Christians. These can only delay our growth, but can never affect our redemption.

It sounds here like you're saying that the love of God is responsible for the terrible end of the majority who spurn Christ and end up in hell. Are you saying God will cast most into the lake of fire simply in order to collect a few for heaven? How is this an expression of God's love? It seems quite the opposite, don't you think - especially if God is all-powerful and thus capable - theoretically, at least - of saving everyone.

Most of mankind will perish (Mat 7:13, 14), which answers to why the majority of mankind has never been interested in God. God does everything out of love and sorrow; love to those who love Him; and for this love He keeps those who don't love Him separate from those who don't love Him. He knew most would choose to perish, but created for those will who love Him.

But God must act to draw people to Himself, right? (John 6:44)

He only "draws" those who desire Him, otherwise He would draw everyone!

He must convict people of their sin and illuminate their hearts and minds to the truth of the Gospel, yes? (John 16:8, 13) God must impart to the sinner the capacity to repent and choose Christ (2 Timothy 2:25) before they can do so, correct? The individual's choice to receive Christ can't be made at all unless God has first acted in these ways to make such a choice possible. Do you agree?

Yes, I agree to all here. But I'm one who believer the individual must first desire Him and choose Him before He gives them faith, etc. to do so.

 

[Tenchi]

If God did not care that we were in sin or not, He wouldn't care about us at all. He loves us too much not to revel our sin.

I see. But was it God's love that condemned Man? Or was it, maybe, His holiness and justice?

Hmmm...Why do you think our being of guilty of sin is necessary to God's plan? [To know good and evil is to experience sin, in order to know his holiness.

So, you're saying we couldn't know God's holiness except we had sinned? Holiness depends upon sin? Is this what you're suggesting? Isn't this New Age dualism you're describing here, the idea of necessary, complementary opposites?

Couldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful God have made a world in which no one sinned? [But he didn't make it where there is no sin, yet. We must first experience sin in order to know His holiness.]

This really does sound like New Age dualism. It's the idea that there can't be light without darkness, or love without hate, or joy without sorrow, etc. This dualism is not biblical, though. Not at all. Can you think of Scripture that says, "Without sin we can't know God's holiness"? I can't.

Rescue only means removing the guilt and dominion of sin, but not the presence of sin (the old man).

Okay. That's a helpful clarification.

We are to continue to deal with sin for our continued learning and conforming.

Oh? Is there Scripture that backs this up? I can't think of any...

Self (old man), Satan and society are no longer a problem for Christians. These can only delay our growth, but can never affect our redemption.

Okay. I agree.

Most of mankind will perish (Mat 7:13, 14), which answers to why the majority of mankind has never been interested in God.

Um, I don't follow you here. Mankind isn't interested in God because most of mankind will perish? This seems the opposite of the case. Won't the majority of mankind perish because most people aren't interested in God? Perishing is an effect of disinterested disbelief, not the cause of it. People perish because they don't care to believe in God; they don't care to believe in God because they will perish, right?

God does everything out of love and sorrow

Everything? Are you sure about that? Scripture says God acts from His holiness and justice, too (Psalm 89:35; Ezekiel 36:22-23; Amos 4:2, Psalm 89:14; Genesis 18:25; Jeremiah 30:11, etc.). He also acts to glorify Himself. (Ezekiel 39:13; Isaiah 60:21; Ezekiel 28:22, etc.) Maybe you were being a bit hyperbolic?

He knew most would choose to perish, but created for those will who love Him.

Yes. Does this seem loving to you? Destroying many in order to save a few?

But I'm one who believer the individual must first desire Him and choose Him before He gives them faith, etc. to do so.

How is this possible, given the biblical descriptions of the lost person as follows?:

Titus 3:3 (NASB)
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

Colossians 1:21 (NASB)
21 ...you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

Ephesians 2:1-3 (NASB)
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[netchaplain]

How is this possible, given the biblical descriptions of the lost person as follows?:

One can desire to be right with God without Him persuading them. It's when we want to be right with Him that He draws us to Christ. If He is the one that puts the desire in us, and then draws us, we would have to make the false conclusion that God is prejudice and is "a respecter of persons," because He chooses not to save others.

 

[Tenchi]

One can desire to be right with God without Him persuading them. It's when we want to be right with Him that He draws us to Christ. If He is the one that puts the desire in us, and then draws us, we would have to make the false conclusion that God is prejudice and is "a respecter of persons," because He chooses not to save others.

I wouldn't say that God "puts the desire in us." He draws us to Christ through the Good News of salvation, which is "the power of God unto salvation." (Romans 1:16) God illuminates our minds to the truth of the Gospel (John 16:13), the Spirit convicting us of our sin as this illumination happens (John 16:8), but God doesn't compel us to, or impose upon us a desire for, salvation. He moves us into the light of the truth of the Gospel but we must choose for ourselves what we'll do with it. About our need of God's help in coming to salvation, the Bible is very clear, though. As the verses I posted indicate, without divine aid we can't even begin to consider the Gospel, to consider Christ; we are just too far gone in sin to do so.

 

[netchaplain]

I wouldn't say that God "puts the desire in us." He draws us to Christ through the Good News of salvation, which is "the power of God unto salvation." (Romans 1:16) God illuminates our minds to the truth of the Gospel (John 16:13), the Spirit convicting us of our sin as this illumination happens (John 16:8), but God doesn't compel us to, or impose upon us a desire for, salvation. He moves us into the light of the truth of the Gospel but we must choose for ourselves what we'll do with it. About our need of God's help in coming to salvation, the Bible is very clear, though. As the verses I posted indicate, without divine aid we can't even begin to consider the Gospel, to consider Christ; we are just too far gone in sin to do so.

It's ok that we see it differently!

 

[Tenchi]

It's ok that we see it differently!

So long as we each have solid ground in Scripture for our views.