Transgression, the law, and redemption...

[cyberjosh]

Without writing a narrative on Pauline theology, Paul speaks about how without the law no one knew was sin was, but that the law thus came in for a reason: to show the need for a Savior. But there is a catch, because for the creature to know it is sinful it must see its inability to be righteous, thus the purpose of the law: which causes men to sin. Yes you heard me right. Not as puppets but the law inexplicably draws (tempts) one to break it, as Paul said, "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET" (Romans 7:7). But then in the next verse he says sin taking opportunity by the commandment decieved him and drew him into sinning because of the law. Also note what Paul says as to transgression and the law: "for where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15). Luckily though God "overlooked the times of ignorance" (Acts 17:30). But the law served two purposes which are in fact one (but different aspects): (1) To increase our transgression (Romans 5:20) and thus (2) to point to Christ.

This 1st idea is no more repulsive than the statement, "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all" (Romans 11:32) and the parallel passage "But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Galatians 3:22). Paul said, "apart from the Law sin is dead" (Romans 7:8). Thus is makes supreme sense when Paul says, "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more (Romans 5:20).

"Pure foolishness!" you might say. But I thank my God: "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen" (1 Corinthians 1:27-28). Does even the Fall make earthly sense to man as part of God's redemption? No it does not, not to fleshly apprehension. Yet God used sin and the Fall to accomplish our redemption. This is the true paradox of redemption.

I shall conclude with this, to handle any concerns: "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law" (Romans 7:7). The law is not sin nor sinful, but rather perfect & good (1 Timothy 1:8), and accounted for a righteousness we could not attain. It came in not to increase our righteousness for it is useless to save in such a way, but rather to increase sin to show the substance of sin "so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful" (Romans 7:13) and thus point to its remedy: Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[bleitzel]

Paul's teaching on the law here also goes hand in hand with Paul's understanding of the great mystery he talks about so much, that God didn't just choose the Israelites to be the only people going to heaven. He also chose the Gentiles. Paul goes on to explain that God's great mystery wasn't that He only loved some of His creation, but that He loved them all. So now the Israelites would say 'wait just a minute, if the gentiles get an opportunity to come into God's kingdom also, through grace, then His choosing of us wasan't actually a blessing after all! In fact, by putting the law onto us and not the gentiles also, God actually PUNISHED us!' So Paul then shows, as you've pointed out, that putting Israel under the law WAS in fact a blessing. That it is through the law that we can see our transgressions, pointing us closer to God. So God wasn't punishing Israel by giving it the law, God was drawing Israel closer, faster, by pointing out much more clearly its unholiness, making Israel more desparate to seek His holiness.

 

[Drew]

I have a specific take on this issue that I believe neither of you have addressed, although I suspect that what I will write does not contradict any of what you have written.

I find a certain appeal to the assertion that God used the Law to literally "draw sin into one place" - the nation of Israel. This is consistent with Romans 5:20 - sin, which I think has a literally physical dimension - actually needs to ultimately be brought together in one literal physical place - the body (and I literally mean the body) of Jesus. However, before the sin of the world is actually concentrated down enough to be borne in Jesus' body, the process of "starting to concentate it" needs to begin. The nation of Israel serves that role and the Law literally "lures sin out of the corners of the Universe" and accumulates it onto Israel.

 

[DM]

Cybershark said the following:

Yet God used sin and the Fall to accomplish our redemption. This is the true paradox of redemption.

I think the idea that there is a "ture paradox" with respect to salvation, stems from a true misunderstanding embedded in the orthodox theory of the atonement. According to the orthodox theory of the atonement, God only "forgives" our sins because Jesus "paid the price" for them. The problem with this theory though, is that forgiveness, by very definition, is the cancellation of an unpaid debt. If the debt has been paid for, then there has never been an opportunity for it to be forgiven.

The ecclesiastical/orthodox solution to this conundrum, is to employ the concept that God's "justice" is a part of His "nature", and as such that God's justice demands payment for offenses against His Holy nature. This view of legal "justice" was incorporated into Christian understanding after the passing of the apostolic generation, whose Jewish understanding regarded God's "justice", not as a justice in the Roman/Latin "legal" sense, but in the Hebrew/Christian "covenantal" sense.

God's "justice" or "righteousness" is based on His faithfulness to His promises. Likewise, our "injustice" or "unrighteousness" is based on our unfaithfulness regarding His promises. Consequently, to "believe God" (i.e. have faith) is regarded by God as our "righteousness" or "justification". The law of Moses was only a temporary agent in the fulfillment of God's Abrahamic promise to bless all nations in Abraham's seed - Christ. Abraham was regarded by God as "righteous" before there was ever a Mosaic law to offend in the first place - by a period of 430 years according to Paul.

Whereas the law (whether the Mosaic law or a general civil law) keeps a record of wrongs, love doesn't. (cf. 1 Cor. 13:5) Since "God is love", God is able to "forgive" our sins. He doesn't demand payment in order to forgive.

Accordingly, God forgives sins BECAUSE He is "just". 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous (or just) to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteouness."

Grace and peace.
David

 

[francisdesales]

As per your request, Josh, I repost this. I have not had a chance to "edit" it. It is "as-is".

Without writing a narrative on Pauline theology, Paul speaks about how without the law no one knew was sin was, but that the law thus came in for a reason: to show the need for a Savior.

I disagree that the Law "came into being" to show the need for a Savior.

I think we view our relationship with God differently, resulting in opposed views on such passages that you point out.

Catholics and some Protestants view our relationship with God as a familial one. We are His children, or we are the Bride and He is the Groom. There is a family relationship that transcends your legal definitions. Most Protestants view God's work of salvation as a legal transaction, a debt paid to ... someone. As a result, your view of the Law is skewed from the start. Since you think only of the legal aspect, God merely has worked some sort of legal "imputation" of righteousness to us. We really aren't righteous, but the "someone" who God "owes" this legal action to will be "satisfied". Thus, the Law is merely a legal document that God tosses before man to say "see, I told you so, you are worthless". THAT is not the sort of relationship that exists between God and man, in our opinion...

You didn't do your homework. There are NUMEROUS Scripture quotes that discuss how GREAT the Law is, how it brings us close to God, how it is to be followed, etc...

Just a small sampling:

Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD. Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart. They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways. Thou hast commanded [us] to keep thy precepts diligently. Psalms 119:1-4

You hang your hat on a couple of misinterpreted verses, while the Bible SCREAMS of God's Law and how we are to follow it.

Paul looks at things from a different angle. If you read the end of Romans 7, he tells us that there are TWO laws working inside of man. The spiritual and the fleshy urges. Even WITH the written law, the Jewish man STILL has urges to follow the way of the flesh. And when we KNOW the written law, the sin is GREATER because we KNOW the Will of God but do not DO the will of God. We are all the more guilty because of our knowledge.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. In other words, to enable us to PERFORM it! Even the spiritual meaning of the Law, as He describes in Matthew 5, going BEYOND what Moses wrote regarding marriage, murder, and love of neighbor.

Yes you heard me right. Not as puppets but the law inexplicably draws (tempts) one to break it, as Paul said, "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET" (Romans 7:7).

Again, read Romans 7 to the end. The written Law is a "problem" because of the war within us that remains unresolved UNTIL Romans 8 - the Holy Spirit. Knowledge of sin is worse than being merely ignorant and committing the deed. It is agony to the holy person to know the Law and STILL falter at times.

Thus, Paul writes

I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom 7:7

Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom 7:12

Your interpretation is incorrect. If the Law is holy, just and good, how is it a device given by God to man to FURTHER sin???

This seems to be a MAJOR problem of contradiction. Paul writes that merely HAVING the written law is not enough. He notes human psychology - we are tempted and fight mightily to try to obey this law. Having the Law is not enough, because it doesn't give the power to obey it. ONLY GOD'S SPIRIT give anyone the power to obey the law. Try to remember who Paul is writing against - Judaizers who thought that mere POSSESSION of the Law made them favored in God's eyes... Paul refutes that at the end of Romans 2 all the way to Romans 7.

This 2nd idea is no more repulsive than the statement, "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all"

Paul is trying to explain the cognitive dissonance of the Jews not becoming Christians. It should be obvious that Paul was "disconcerted" that his co-religionists were also not becoming Christians. His explanation was his attempt to show that it was part of God's plan, even though it didn't make sense at the time.

I shall conclude with this, to handle your concerns: ... The law is not sin nor sinful, but rather perfect & good (1 Timothy 1:8), and accounted for a righteousness we could not attain. It came in not to increase our righteousness for it is useless to save in such a way, but rather to increase sin to show the substance of sin

You take Scriptures and jump to conclusions and say "we could not attain righteousness". Even the Jews didn't believe they could attain righteousness BY THEMSELVES. In Christ, however, we CAN BECOME righteous.

Unfortunately, you believe that the Law was given to prove how lowly we are. This is not the actions of a loving Father. Would you smash your little kid into the ground to show how much better in football you were than your 4 year old kid???? Ridiculous.

God is a God of Love, not a spiteful God or One who needs to show He is better than us. For heavens sake, HE DIED ON A CROSS! Of all the ways to save us, HE CHOSE to die in that manner. And you tell me that He gave us the Law so that we would be even deeper in sin?

The Bible clearly tells us that men CAN be righteous in God's eyes. We are even told that we MUST have righteousness, one that exceeds that of the Pharisees. (Mat 5:20). Jesus said that - and NEVER ONCE mentions anything about HIS righteousness "covering" us up. That legal interpretation of the work of Christ is NOT mentioned by Jesus even ONE time, that I am aware of...

Regards