Translation of John 8:25

[Gregg]

"Then they said to Him, Who are you? And Jesus said to them, Altogether what I also say to you." (Joh 8:25 LITV)

"Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning." (Joh 8:25 KJV)

I only thought that I knew a little Greek.

I've tried to translate John 8:25 [the portion bolded], but lack understanding a few principles. Would anyone care to translate this verse 1) explaining the tense, voice, and mood of the verbs; 2) why the case of the nouns are interpreted as you might suggest, and 3) the sentence structure?

 

[chessman]

I can't translate it any better than the translators do but I can study it:

John 8:25 (LEB)So they began to say to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “What I have been saying to you from the beginning.
​

The group of scribes and Pharisees are asking him a series of questions and this is one of them. They ask:

Who are you? A rather odd question until you remember He just got through saying He's not from this world. v23

But he's answering their question, who are you and claiming to be God (The Beginning). His answer:

ἀρχὴν archēn beginning; power; office. (See John 1:1) also translated at times:
ruler, authority, originator

Then He adds, and I paraphrase; oh by the way, I'm your judge, you're not mine (or the adulteres')

 

[veryberry]

"Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning." (Joh 8:25 KJV)

This is the inspired translation.

 

[Gregg]

But he's answering their question, who are you and claiming to be God (The Beginning). His answer:

ἀρχὴν archēn beginning; power; office. (See John 1:1) also translated at times:
ruler, authority, originator

Thanks chessman,

I also took it as Jesus giving one of His titles; that He is 'The Beginning', την αρχην. It is in the accusative case, the direct object to the verb λαλω; He was speaking that title towards those [υμιν] questioning Him.

What I am having difficulty understanding is this part of His answer: ο τι και, particularly "ο τι".

My interpretation of Jesus' answer is this: 'The Beginning; that which also I speak towards you.'

- - -

Perhaps the moderators will begin a new forum on 'Interpretation of the Greek New Testament'.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Matthew 16:16 -17 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus in (John 8:25) was looking for revelation from God from them, but didn't get it. Peter on the other-hand......did.

 

[OzSpen]

"Then they said to Him, Who are you? And Jesus said to them, Altogether what I also say to you." (Joh 8:25 LITV)

"Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning." (Joh 8:25 KJV)

I only thought that I knew a little Greek.

I've tried to translate John 8:25 [the portion bolded], but lack understanding a few principles. Would anyone care to translate this verse 1) explaining the tense, voice, and mood of the verbs; 2) why the case of the nouns are interpreted as you might suggest, and 3) the sentence structure?

Gregg,

Here's my attempt. Please feel free to respond with some questions if I'm not clear.

John 8 Interlinear

25 3004 [e]
25 elegon
25 ἔλεγον
25 They said
25 V-IIA-3P

elegon = first person singular OR third person plural number, imperfect tense, indicative mood, active voice. The imperfect tense refers to continuous or repeated action in the past and generally should be translated as past continuous forms. So here the translation would be ‘they were saying’. The indicative mood is the mood of statements.

3767 [e]
oun
οὖν
therefore
Conj

846 [e]
autō
αὐτῷ ,
to him
PPro-DM3S

4771 [e]
Sy
Σὺ
You
PPro-N2S

5101 [e]
tis
τίς
who
IPro-NMS

1510 [e]
ei
εἶ ?
are
V-PIA-2S

ei is the second person singular, present, tense indicative of the verb ‘to be’, i.e. eimi. So the translation is ‘you (singular) are’ or something like ‘you continue to be’.

3004 [e]
eipen
εἶπεν
said
V-AIA-3S

eipen = 3rd person singular, aorist tense, indicative mood, active voice of eipon (i.e. he said) OR 2nd person singular, aorist verb, imperative mood, active voice of eipon (i.e. say – as a command). The imperative mood is that of a command. Because both are aorist tense, it refers to a point action, thought of like a single dot.

846 [e]
autois
αὐτοῖς
to them
PPro-DM3P


3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
-
Art-NMS


2424 [e]
Iēsous
Ἰησοῦς ,
Jesus
N-NMS


3588 [e]
Tēn
Τὴν
from the
Art-AFS


746 [e]
archēn
ἀρχὴν
beginning
N-AFS


3754 [e]
ho¦ti
ὅ¦τι
what
Conj


2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
also
Conj


2980 [e]
lalō
λαλῶ
I am saying
V-PIA-1S

lalo = 1st person singular, present tense, indicative and subjunctive moods of laleo (i.e. I am saying). The subjunctive mood is the mood of doubtful assertion. In most instances there is some element of indefiniteness (e.g. I may say; I might preach, etc).

If you want some additional help with the Greek, I recommend exegesis by one of the most outstanding Greek grammarians of the 20th century, Dr. A T Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament.

4771 [e]
hymin
ὑμῖν .
to you
PPro-D2P

In Christ,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Gregg,

I forgot to add that, based on this Greek text and the tenses of the verbs, this could be a translation: 'Therefore, they were saying to him, “Who are you (continuing to be)?” (The) Jesus said to them, “(From) the beginning also what I am saying"'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Thanks chessman,

I also took it as Jesus giving one of His titles; that He is 'The Beginning', την αρχην. It is in the accusative case, the direct object to the verb λαλω; He was speaking that title towards those [υμιν] questioning Him.

What I am having difficulty understanding is this part of His answer: ο τι και, particularly "ο τι".

My interpretation of Jesus' answer is this: 'The Beginning; that which also I speak towards you.'

- - -

Perhaps the moderators will begin a new forum on 'Interpretation of the Greek New Testament'.

Gregg,

You stated: 'What I am having difficulty understanding is this part of His answer: ο τι και, particularly "ο τι". Most often 'o ti' is here understood as oti = hoti, i.e. 'that' or 'that which'
A T Robertson in his Word Pictures in the New Testament explains some of the difficulty with John 8:25, based on the Greek:

Who art thou? (Su ti ei;). Proleptic use of su before ti, "Thou, who art thou?" Cf. Isaiah 1:19 . He had virtually claimed to be the Messiah and on a par with God as in Isaiah 5:15 . They wish to pin him down and to charge him with blasphemy. Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning (thn archn oti kai lalw umin). A difficult sentence. It is not clear whether it is an affirmation or a question. The Latin and Syriac versions treat it as affirmative. Westcott and Hort follow Meyer and take it as interrogative. The Greek fathers take it as an exclamation. It seems clear that the adverbial accusative thn archn cannot mean "from the beginning" like ap arch ( Isaiah 15:27 ) or ex arch ( Isaiah 16:4 ). The LXX has thn archn for "at the beginning" or "at the first" ( Genesis 43:20 ). There are examples in Greek, chiefly negative, where thn archn means "at all," "essentially," "primarily." Vincent and Bernard so take it here, "Primarily what I am telling you." Jesus avoids the term Messiah with its political connotations. He stands by his high claims already made. (Source: Word Pictures in the New Testament: John 8:25)​

As Robertson points out, there are varying views on whether 'that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning' is a statement (affirmation) or a question. As you appreciate, there is no question mark or other English-based punctuation marks in Greek, so context needs to help us with interpretation. Even the Greek scholars come to different conclusions concerning the nature of this Greek sentence - statement or question.

Oz

 

[chessman]

As you appreciate, there is no question mark or other English-based punctuation marks in Greek, so context needs to help us with interpretation. Even the Greek scholars come to different conclusions concerning the nature of this Greek sentence - statement or question.

Oz

This point is why I pointed out that the verse is first (fundamentally) Jesus' answer to their question, Who are you?

I suppose it's technically possible to answer a question with a question but not very likeily. In many ways it's a one word answer:

Who are you, Jesus? God!
(See Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21)

 

[OzSpen]

This point is why I pointed out that the verse is first (fundamentally) Jesus' answer to their question, Who are you?

I suppose it's technically possible to answer a question with a question but not very likeily. In many ways it's a one word answer:

Who are you, Jesus? God!
(See Gen 1:1 thru Rev 22:21)

Chess,

I agree that answering with a question is hardly the way to reply.

That's why I find the New Living Translation's dynamic equivalence version of John 8:24-25 (NLT) to be a pretty good understanding of the meaning of the Greek, 'That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins." 25 “Who are you?” they demanded. Jesus replied, “The one I have always claimed to be"'.

Oz

 

[Gregg]

ref Jn 8:25 την αρχην ο τι . . .

την [accusative, fem.] αρχην [accusative, fem.] ο [accusative, neu.] τι [nominative, neu.]

- Is it proper or legitimate to translate την αρχην 'from the beginning'? I might have thought the genitive case would have been used were that the desired translation.

- But as την αρχην is in the accusative case, I understand that as the direct object it receives the action of the verb λαλω; την αρχην is what was said, such as 'I say' [λαλω] 'the Beginning' [την αρχην].

- ο also is the accusative case, but neuter gender in relation to τι.

 

[OzSpen]

ref Jn 8:25 την αρχην ο τι . . .

την [accusative, fem.] αρχην [accusative, fem.] ο [accusative, neu.] τι [nominative, neu.]

- Is it proper or legitimate to translate την αρχην 'from the beginning'? I might have thought the genitive case would have been used were that the desired translation.

- But as την αρχην is in the accusative case, I understand that as the direct object it receives the action of the verb λαλω; την αρχην is what was said, such as 'I say' [λαλω] 'the Beginning' [την αρχην].

- ο also is the accusative case, but neuter gender in relation to τι.

Gregg,

You stated:

'Is it proper or legitimate to translate την αρχην 'from the beginning'? I might have thought the genitive case would have been used were that the desired translation'.​

There are a number of other ways that ten archen could be interpreted and Robertson gave those options (as I have cited above):

The LXX has thn archn for "at the beginning" or "at the first" ( Genesis 43:20 ). There are examples in Greek, chiefly negative, where thn archn means "at all," "essentially," "primarily." Vincent and Bernard so take it here, "Primarily what I am telling you."​

Because 2 words are in the accusative case in Greek does not automatically lead to them regarded in Jn 8:25 as the direct object of 'I say'. This is further exemplified by en archen being prior to the verb, lalo.

Leon Morris's commentary The Gospel according to John (The New International Commentary on the New Testament 1971, Eerdmans, pp 448-150) has a very good discussion of the exegetical difficulties with the Greek of this verse. D A Carson's commentary on John 8:25 at pp. 345-346 and he explains why ten archen does not make sense if it is translated as the direct object. See: http://books.google.com.au/books?id... but that makes no sense here" Carson&f=false

I don't think you and I are going to overcome the Greek difficulties in this verse when some of the leading Greek scholars have not been able to do it. Well, that's how I see it. Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

​

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

You stated:

'Is it proper or legitimate to translate την αρχην 'from the beginning'? I might have thought the genitive case would have been used were that the desired translation'.​

There are a number of other ways that ten archen could be interpreted and Robertson gave those options (as I have cited above):

The LXX has thn archn for "at the beginning" or "at the first" ( Genesis 43:20 ). There are examples in Greek, chiefly negative, where thn archn means "at all," "essentially," "primarily." Vincent and Bernard so take it here, "Primarily what I am telling you."​

Because 2 words are in the accusative case in Greek does not automatically lead to them regarded in Jn 8:25 as the direct object of 'I say'. This is further exemplified by en archen being prior to the verb, lalo.

Leon Morris's commentary The Gospel according to John (The New International Commentary on the New Testament 1971, Eerdmans, pp 448-150) has a very good discussion of the exegetical difficulties with the Greek of this verse. D A Carson's commentary on John 8:25 at pp. 345-346 and he explains why ten archen does not make sense if it is translated as the direct object. See: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=zBRuo3LHyS4C&pg=PA345&lpg=PA345&dq="The accusative case is often used to signify a direct object, but that makes no sense here" Carson&source=bl&ots=lc7aeu9PPY&sig=KbA0GzUqyZrjPCi8P4lCV1ZP-yA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=d6RQVP6LNqi0mAW0kYKIBQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q="The accusative case is often used to signify a direct object, but that makes no sense here" Carson&f=false

I don't think you and I are going to overcome the Greek difficulties in this verse when some of the leading Greek scholars have not been able to do it. Well, that's how I see it. Just some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

​

I have Morris' book. He wrongly justifies translating λαλω in the past tense ['I told you'] to correct the sentence [an unwarranted liberty taken], although he rightly acknowledges λαλω is present tense.

I do understand that it is used adverbially in the LXX to mean 'at the beginning' or 'at the first.' In the NT other than in Jn 8:25, αρχην is proceeded by the article only in Heb 3:14; where it is translated 'the beginning' followed by a genitive phrase.

He just explained that He was "from above" (Jn 8:23), the "I Am" (Jn 8:24); both which went unacknowledged by the Jews. Perhaps He was not answering with the title 'The Beginning'; but rather ο τι [both neuter in Jn 8:25 ] refers to what follows in Jn 8:26 - "many [things]' πολλα accusative neuter.

 

[OzSpen]

I have Morris' book. He wrongly justifies translating λαλω in the past tense ['I told you'] to correct the sentence [an unwarranted liberty taken], although he rightly acknowledges λαλω is present tense.

I do understand that it is used adverbially in the LXX to mean 'at the beginning' or 'at the first.' In the NT other than in Jn 8:25, αρχην is proceeded by the article only in Heb 3:14; where it is translated 'the beginning' followed by a genitive phrase.

He just explained that He was "from above" (Jn 8:23), the "I Am" (Jn 8:24); both which went unacknowledged by the Jews. Perhaps He was not answering with the title 'The Beginning'; but rather ο τι [both neuter in Jn 8:25 ] refers to what follows in Jn 8:26 - "many [things]' πολλα accusative neuter.

Gregg,

You don't like how Leon Morris translated lalo, but the ESV translators had no problem with accepting Morris's kind of understanding with this translation of John 8:25 (ESV): 'So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning"'.

 

[for_his_glory]

Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Ask your self what does Jesus mean from the beginning and then go back to vs. 12 as you will see the Pharisees were questioning Jesus and He was trying to tell them from vs. 12 to vs. 25 that He is that light of the world (Messiah come), but they had no understanding that Jesus was Messiah as they were waiting for a Priestly King, not a carpenters son.

 

[OzSpen]

Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Ask your self what does Jesus mean from the beginning and then go back to vs. 12 as you will see the Pharisees were questioning Jesus and He was trying to tell them from vs. 12 to vs. 25 that He is that light of the world (Messiah come), but they had no understanding that Jesus was Messiah as they were waiting for a Priestly King, not a carpenters son.

fhg,

Thank you for this insight. It affirms what Jesus has been saying about himself.

The issue we have been discussing is with the Greek language used in v. 25. It uses 'the beginning' but not 'from the beginning'. However, only yesterday I examined what some Greek writers did with a technique called asyndeton or polysyndeton. Asyndeton is where use of a conjunction is expected, but it is left out. On occasions this may apply to the use of prepositions (which could be the case with 'the beginning' in John 8:25). A preposition such as 'apo' (from) could be left out but its use is implied. Polysyndeton is where this happens multiple times in a sentence. This technique is not normal with the Greek language, but is a Semiticism.

There also is another Greek technique that could be used in John 8:25 and that is anacoluthon. A T Robertson explains that 'this is merely the failure to complete a sentence as intended when it was begun.... The completion does not follow grammatically from the beginning.... The anacoluthon may be therefore either intentional or unintentional. The writer may be led off by a fresh idea or by a parenthesis, or he may think of a better way of finishing his sentence, one that will be more effective. The very jolt that is given by the anacoluthon is often successful in making more emphasis. The attention is drawn anew to the sentence to see what is the matter' (Robertson 1934:435).

I consider that an anacoluthon may be a pretty good explanation for what is happening in John 8:25. We are given a fresh jolt about who Jesus is.

Oz

Works consulted
Robertson, A T 1934. A grammar of the Greek New Testament in the light of historical research. Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press.

 

[for_his_glory]

Whether it be Hebrew, Greek, English or whatever language it all boils down to that of John 8:25 that Jesus is the light of the world

 

[OzSpen]

Whether it be Hebrew, Greek, English or whatever language it all boils down to that of John 8:25 that Jesus is the light of the world

John 8:25 (ESV) is in a paragraph in which Jesus is telling them, 'I am going away' (v. 21ff). However, this is thread dealing with the Greek grammar of John 8:25 (ESV). To discuss Jesus as the 'light of the world' (an excellent topic), why don't you start a new thread?

 

[LovethroughDove]

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (Holy Spirit-light). He (Jesus) was with God (the Father) in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was the life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Talking about the beginning and man not understanding it because of darkness.