true tradition, false tradition?

[JM]

"The carnal mind is enmity against God"â€â€Romans 8:7

A picture of man,

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

_______________________

Without the Grace of God to change a sinner, the natural man remains hostile to God, consider John Calvin's words: Those, therefore, who set up a fictitious worship, merely worship and adore their own delirious fancies; indeed, they would never dare so to trifle with God, had they not previously fashioned him after their own childish conceits. Hence that vague and wandering opinion of Deity is declared by an apostle to be ignorance of God: “Howbeit, then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.†And he elsewhere declares, that the Ephesians were “without God†(Eph. 2:12) at the time when they wandered without any correct knowledge of him. It makes little difference, at least in this respect, whether you hold the existence of one God, or a plurality of gods, since, in both cases alike, by departing from the true God, you have nothing left but an execrable idol. It remains, therefore, to conclude with Lactantius (Instit. Div. lib 1:2, 6), “No religion is genuine that is not in accordance with truth.â€Â

I just read this last night!

Peace,

j

 

[Imagican]

Is the 'tradition' taught by the churches the Word of God, passed down FROM the Son of God and His apostles, or 'something else'? And if something else, then what is 'wrong' with following them.

Tough question. Church tradition is not all of God but then in part, it can be inspired of God too. Take baptising in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit for example. This can be found in scripture and churches practice it. Many churches teach the Word of God as well; scripture for scripture, and while some of it can be corrupted by man-made interpretation - digesting scripture is the seed God meant to be planted inside believers from the very beginning.

On the outside it looks as if the man-made churches are twisting scripture but when God is in control (through Christ) he nurtures his seed inside every individual, despite outside intervention. "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." ROMANS 8:38-29

When we learn of God's love for his Son through scripture, we are impregnated with the seed of life. Church is where many go to be inspired of God's love...and this is the part which can only be of righteousness. If belief in God was counted as righteousness unto Abraham, then so too any person who believes in God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, must in some part obtain that same righteousness?

Enter tradition however - the bane of mankind's eternal fall from grace. The Jews fell unto their man-made traditions as will the Christian churches fall upon the cornerstone and be broken. For only the Lord's words will remain after heaven and earth pass away; and so every God-fearing person should study the scriptures for his Son's word and find truth.

To sumarise, what I am saying is that church tradition is not of God unless it follows the original commandments set by him and what Jesus taught as well - but also, Church provides the storehouse of seeds which can be planted of God - despite death, life, angels, principalities, powers, things present, things to come, height, depth or any other creature. God's love is eternal and has been offered as a gift for those who are humble, respectful and fearful before God.

Whether through scripture or tradition; given unto the hands of God in full submission to him alone will our understanding be made manifest in his righteousness. No-one has control over when or how we obtain this righteousness either. For some have tried tradition, some have tried sacrifices, some have tried fear of damnation and others have tried doctrine. :wink: In the end God only respects the humble, the respectful and the fearful unto his love through Jesus Christ.

Klee,

Strong words of wisdom, my friend. Good 'news' for those willing to accept it.

Thanks for your offering.

God Bless You and Yours,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Now, the important thing to understand is 'true' tradition AS taught by the apostles and Christ Himself, and separate 'this' from that which is falsely taught by 'man alone'.

Precision is important here. Let me ask what I hope is a clear and direct question: This "true" tradition that you refer to, does any of it provide additional content over and above what is present in the Scriptures? I suspect that you will answer in the negative. Now please hold that thought for now....

Let me break this down to it's simplist terms. The wisdom of man is NOTHING without being in 'tune' with the Wisdom of God. This ONLY takes place through the Spirit.

I believe what you are saying to be true, but I have some qualifications. Let me ask you another question. Is your position basically the following: "The truth that all tradition outside of the scriptures is not authoritative is a truth that can only be discerned 'spiritually'. It simply cannot be shown to be the case in through any kind of evidence-based argument."

Reading between the lines of what you have already written, I expect that you will answer "yes" to this question. If so, there really is nothing to discuss, since the truth about the validity of tradition cannot be defended using the tools of what you call the "wisdom of man", which, I claim, is really the only game in town (as it were) for any humans to have any constructive interactions (with each other) at all. If the "wisdom of man" is totally dismissed, the world is reduced to a set of persons who sit in a kind of immediate relation to the 'spiritual' and who cannot trust all the conventional faculties of human thinking - logic, consistency, analysis, synthesis, etc. I have no trouble with the former, but I do with the latter.

I think it is fairly clear that God has given mankind reasonably reliable "tools" to think and reason properly. It should not be assumed that these cannot be complementary to any kind of direct revelation through the Spirit.

In other words, the fact that we have a spiritual faculty to interact with God is not really a reason to reject the faculties of "human reason" that have served mankind so well through the millenia. We need to be careful to not play the game of denying the validity of the tools of human "wisdom" and yet clearly use these same tools to make that very point. This happens a lot in the Church - teachers will apply the principles of "human wisdom" (e.g. building a scriptural case based on principles of logic and textual interpretation) to try to make the very case that these tools are not to be trusted.

By the way, I appreciate the cordial manner you use in these discussion.

Drew,

Once again, what you offer makes PERFECT sense to the 'carnal mind and heart'. That WE are able to create our OWN heaven and that WE are our OWN gods makes PERFECT sense to men and their carnal nature. We cannot, however, reach God through these means and we certainly can't PLEASE Him in this 'mindset'. We are to 'turn it ALL over to Him through His Son. Otherwise there is NOTHING other than what you have already offered.

Not surprising to me that you offer what you do. For there are MANY, (Mostly IMO, including those that 'claim' a sense of Godliness), that feel EXACTLY as you do. I will not argue your 'right' to view God's will any way that you choose. But, through the LOVE of God, I would offer that you open your heart to that which has been offered freely. Freedom of choice is a BEAUTIFUL thing. But, it can also lead to damnation if not used responsibly.

Ours is to LEARN the 'truth' and therefore be ABLE to abide in the love of God and allow HIS will to lead in our lives. Not our own, for the flesh is greedy and wishes for LITTLE other than it's own. Thijs is a dangerous path that we have been warned can lead us ONLY into destruction.

So, Drew, you obviously understand at least the 'basics' of what has been offered here, for you gave MY answers to your questions without a 'doubt' being offered. And you were right, from the perspective concerning MY understanding, to the answers that stated I would give.

So, I guess that leaves little else to discuss. Not that I have hessitated to respond to your posts nor have I offered any distaste towards them. Drew, I am a man and born of flesh myself. I STILL remember in minute detail, how I use to think 'before' being 'born again'. I am well aware of the nature of the 'natural man' and therefore am unlikely to try and place myself on a pedistal when discussing these issues with those that are still seeking. Nothing here but love my friend and my wish is that others only be able to share it the more abundantly.

Any questions any time. Glad you're here to offer an opposing viewpoint for without it we could only reconfirm that which 'we' already know.

God Bless you brother,

MEC