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Bible Study TurntheOtherCheek

H

Hitch

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There have been quite a number of posts lately related to pacifism . The most ardent voices seemed to agree that any offensive action , is strictly prohibited, citing personal quotations from Jesus Christ, but that stopping an attack, calling in the police, etc are acceptable. It is repeated over and again that Jesus never allowed ,said or did anything to promote any violence ,in fact exactly the opposite. Citations of conflicting OT passages are scoffed at.

The question is directed toward our local self professed pacifists with special emphasis on those who fit the template (and I think all of them do ) above, but of course all are invited to respond. It is basically a repetition of a question that so far as I know was asked but never addressed earlier.

considering what Jesus actually said;

Luke 6:29
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.

Where do you derive from what Jesus said, the right to restrain the attacker?

Why would it 'be best' to ignore what Jesus taught ?
 
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In forums we need to display the love of Christ in all our actions towards each other no matter if they are in Christ or not as each have different views and or Spiritual knowledge in the word of God and there is no need to attack each other as we should be pacifist with each other.

Now in the world it can be a different story, but yet we should try and handle all things through the love of Christ, but yet there are times when we need to take up arms against our enemies and drive them away as Jesus did when he used a whip to drive out the money changers in the Temple. When we can not handle certain situations then the authorities need to step in and take control as we are also watchmen to not allow others to be harmed.

Eze 33:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 33:2 Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:
Eze 33:3 If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people;
Eze 33:4 Then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head.
Eze 33:5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul.
Eze 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.
Eze 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

Joh 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
 
.....but yet there are times when we need to take up arms against our enemies and drive them away as Jesus did when he used a whip to drive out the money changers in the Temple.
I do not agree with your interpretation of the events in the temple.

Yes, Jesus used a "violent" form of action in the temple. But this action needs to be understood in its broader context. Throughout His ministry, Jesus has repeatedly critiqued contemporary Israel for abandoning their obligation to be a light of the world. In short, Jesus announced judgement on Israel.

What was the central symbol of Israel in Jesus' day? It was the temple.

Jesus' action in the temple is not a legitimation of the use of force to achieve even honourable goals. It is instead, I suggest, a carefully contrived symbolic act pre-figuring a coming judgement for the nation of Israel. To see His action in the temple as providing a "template" or model for how we are to act in the world is to entirely misread the event.
 
In forums we need to display the love of Christ in all our actions towards each other no matter if they are in Christ or not as each have different views and or Spiritual knowledge in the word of God and there is no need to attack each other as we should be pacifist with each other.

Now in the world it can be a different story, but yet we should try and handle all things through the love of Christ, but yet there are times when we need to take up arms against our enemies and drive them away as Jesus did when he used a whip to drive out the money changers in the Temple. When we can not handle certain situations then the authorities need to step in and take control as we are also watchmen to not allow others to be harmed.

E
Im glad you and I can agree somewhere but this is off topic and the focus here is narrow.
 
Deuteronomy 19 is where we get the context of what Jesus was talking about:

16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, 17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, 19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deut. 19:16-21 NIV1984)


Matthew 5 gives us a better explanation of Jesus' teaching:

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. (Matt. 5:38-39 NIV1984)

The law stipulated that you could legally exact an eye for an eye, or a tooth for a tooth, etc. from someone as payment for the harm they have done to you or your property. And that if a false accusation has been leveled against you, the false witness must then have to have happen to him what he expected the other person to have happen to them. Jesus is telling us not to resist the evil person and not use our lawful right to exact revenge for what they have done, even in the case of a false witness. The law demanded it. Mercy relinquishes it's right to do that. 'Mercy triumphs over judgment'

To make this into a passage that teaches us that we must stand idley by while evil people slap us or others around is to simply not know what 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' means.

Paul speaks to this matter to the Corinthians:

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? (1 Cor. 6:7 NIV1984)

A pretty hard teaching if you ask me. Sometimes what people have done to us has indeed cost us a lot and even made life miserable. But Jesus says to show the wrong doer mercy and not exercise your legal right to receive just payment. There probably aren't as many dogmatic, zealous people for that truth than there are for a lot of other things people insist is the truth.
 
To make this into a passage that teaches us that we must stand idley by while evil people slap us or others around is to simply not know what 'eye for eye, tooth for tooth' means.
I am inclined to agree with your analysis. But I want to point out that the following is not a valid argument (I am not suggesting that you are making this argument, by the way):

1. The "turn the other cheek" text does not teach a pacifist response to violence;
2. Therefore, its Biblically acceptable to use violence in self-defence.

If your analysis is correct, all we can conclude is that this particular passage does not make a case for "pacifism". I suggest that, among others, what Jesus says to Pilate in John 18 shows that Jesus indeed believes that the use of force has no place in the Kingdom of God.
 
I suggest that, among others, what Jesus says to Pilate in John 18 shows that Jesus indeed believes that the use of force has no place in the Kingdom of God.
In regard to persecution I generally agree. But for someone who just wants to be troublesome and destructive, they need to be restrained when possible for the good of all.
 
I know, I know but I am going to post it again, anyway.


Below is a very interesting article that I found.

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (attributed to Jesus in Matthew 5:38-41, Revised Standard Version)

Many who have committed their lives to working for change and justice in the world simply dismiss Jesus' teachings about nonviolence as impractical idealism. And with good reason. "Turn the other cheek" suggests the passive, Christian doormat quality that has made so many Christians cowardly and complicit in the face of injustice. "Resist not evil" seems to break the back of all opposition to evil and counsel submission. "Going the second mile" has become a platitude meaning nothing more than "extend yourself." Rather than fostering structural change, such attitudes encourage collaboration with the oppressor.

Jesus never behaved in such ways. Whatever the source of the misunderstanding, it is neither Jesus nor his teaching, which, when given a fair hearing in its original social context, is arguably one of the most revolutionary political statements ever uttered.

When the court translators working in the hire of King James chose to translate antistenai as "Resist not evil," they were doing something more than rendering Greek into English. They were translating nonviolent resistance into docility. The Greek word means more than simply to "stand against" or "resist." It means to resist violently, to revolt or rebel, to engage in an insurrection. Jesus did not tell his oppressed hearers not to resist evil. His entire ministry is at odds with such a preposterous idea. He is, rather, warning against responding to evil in kind by letting the oppressor set the terms of our opposition.

A proper translation of Jesus' teaching would then be, "Do not retaliate against violence with violence." Jesus was no less committed to opposing evil than the anti-Roman resistance fighters like Barabbas. The only difference was over the means to be used.

There are three general responses to evil: (1) violent opposition, (2) passivity, and (3) the third way of militant nonviolence articulated by Jesus. Human evolution has conditioned us for only the first two of these responses: fight or flight.

Fight had been the cry of Galileans who had abortively rebelled against Rome only two decades before Jesus spoke. Jesus and many of his hearers would have seen some of the two thousand of their countrymen crucified by the Romans along the roadsides. They would have known some of the inhabitants of Sepphoris (a mere three miles north of Nazareth) who had been sold into slavery for aiding the insurrectionists' assault on the arsenal there. Some also would live to experience the horrors of the war against Rome in 66-70 C.E., one of the ghastliest in history. If the option of fighting had no appeal to them, their only alternative was flight: passivity, submission, or, at best, a passive-aggressive recalcitrance in obeying commands. For them no third way existed.

Now we are in a better position to see why King James' servants translated antistenai as "resist not." The king would not want people concluding they had any recourse against his or any other sovereign's unjust policies. Jesus commands us, according to these king's men, to resist not. Jesus appears to say say that submission to monarchial absolutism is the will of God. Most modern translations have meekly followed the King James path.

Neither of the invidious alternatives of flight or fight is what Jesus is proposing. Jesus abhors both passivity and violence as responses to evil. His is a third alternative not even touched by these options. The Scholars Version translates Antistenai brilliantly: "Don't react violently against someone who is evil."

Jesus clarifies his meaning by three brief examples. "If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Why the right cheek? How does one strike another on the right cheek anyway? Try it. A blow by the right fist in that right-handed world would land on the left cheek of the opponent. To strike the right cheek with the fist would require using the left hand, but in that society the left hand was used only for unclean tasks. As the Dead Sea Scrolls specify, even to gesture with the left hand at Qumran carried the penalty of ten days penance. The only way one could strike the right cheek with the right hand would be with the back of the hand.

What we are dealing with here is unmistakably an insult, not a fistfight. The intention is not to injure but to humiliate, to put someone in his or her place. One normally did not strike a peer in this way, and if one did the fine was exorbitant (four zuz was the fine for a blow to a peer with a fist, 400 zuz for backhanding him; but to an underling, no penalty whatever). A backhand slap was the normal way of admonishing inferiors. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; men, women; Romans, Jews.

We have here a set of unequal relations, in each of which retaliation would be suicidal. The only normal response would be cowering submission. It is important to ask who Jesus' audience is. In every case, Jesus' listeners are not those who strike, initiate lawsuits, or impose forced labor. Rather, Jesus is speaking to their victims, people who have been subjected to these very indignities. They have been forced to stifle their inner outrage at the dehumanizing treatment meted out to them by the hierarchical system of caste and class, race and gender, age and status, and by the guardians of imperial occupation.

Why then does Jesus counsel these already humiliated people to turn the other cheek? Because this action robs the oppressor of power to humiliate them. The person who turns the other cheek is saying, in effect, "Try again. Your first blow failed to achieve its intended effect. I deny you the power to humiliate me. I am a human being just like you. Your status (gender, race, age, wealth) does not alter that. You cannot demean me." Such a response would create enormous difficulties for the striker. Purely logistically, how can he now hit the other cheek? He cannot backhand it with his right hand. If he hits with a fist, he makes himself an equal, acknowledging the other as a peer. But the whole point of the back of the hand is to reinforce the caste system and its institutionalized inequality.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...sage665517/pg1
 
All depends on who the attacker is and how they are attacking you or your family and friends. According to Romans 13:1-7 God created government to establish order, punish evil, and promote justice, which allows us to call the police when justice needs to prevail. People are quick to use the phrase an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth within their justification of retaliation for after all this is what Jesus said in the Bible, but they have either never read the Bible or else they have just omitted the rest of the verses as Jesus gave instruction on how to deal with our enemies in Matthew 5:38-48. You can feel justified in anger towards another person when they wrong you by society’s standards and this world has become a social majority rule kind of place that has leaned more on retaliation than forgiveness. This is why we have wars between countries that are no different than the war you have raging in you against those who wrong you and you want to bring your own retaliation against them.

Love and forgiveness is hard to accomplish especially if you do not know the love of Christ in your own life as it is Gods greatest commandment and his will that we love everyone, even our enemies, Matthew 22:36-40. As a child of God through the Spiritual rebirth when you are in the flesh you allow yourself to be separated from the Holy Spirit as flesh and Spirit can not mix and flesh is a hostile enemy against God, Romans 8:5-8. This also allows Satan a window to enter into your thoughts that could cause you to do things you could regret later. We are to abide by the laws of Government as long as those laws line up with the word of God, but if they do not then we abide in what is Gods, Acts 5:27-29.

Proverbs 19:11 The discretion of a man deferreth his anger; and it is his glory to pass over a transgression.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
 
In regard to persecution I generally agree. But for someone who just wants to be troublesome and destructive, they need to be restrained when possible for the good of all.
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "restrain". But I do think that, as per Jesus' statement before Pilate, citizens of the kingdom of God do not use violent means to achieve even an end that involves saving someone's life.
 
Topic has been moved to the Bible Study forum.

This fits better in a Bible Study environment, where it can me monitored and moderated according to the sub rules of the Bible Study Forum.

So, treat it as such, use scripture to support beliefs and opinions, address the issue(s) at hand and DO NOT address specific worldviews of other members, including Staff members who need to interject for whatever reason.

Thanks and carry on. :nod
 
I am not sure exactly what you mean by "restrain". But I do think that, as per Jesus' statement before Pilate, citizens of the kingdom of God do not use violent means to achieve even an end that involves saving someone's life.

John 18:33-38, ESV
So Pilate entered his headquarters again and called Jesus and said to him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus answered, "Do you say this of your own accord, or did others say it to you about me?" Pilate answered, "Am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have delivered you over to me. What have you done?" Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world. " Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world— to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice." Pilate said to him, "What is truth?"

I don't think that the passage above does any work regarding either the appropriateness or inappropriateness of a physically forceful or violent response to violent criminals and aggressors. Jesus is talking about the advancement of the Kingdom of the God and stating that it is not spread by the use of violent defense or aggression. Something that virtually all Christians, pacifists or not, would agree with. I find it a stretch to interpret Christ as offering a teaching on fighting generally in John 18:36, either for or against it.
 
So if I could stop a bank robber who is mercilessly pistol whipping a staff of women bank tellers (don't worry, except for the good looks, muscles, and martial arts skills, I pretty much look like Claude Van Damm) I should not do that because I need to be loving and forgiving?
 
Topic has been moved to the Bible Study forum.

This fits better in a Bible Study environment, where it can me monitored and moderated according to the sub rules of the Bible Study Forum.

So, treat it as such, use scripture to support beliefs and opinions, address the issue(s) at hand and DO NOT address specific worldviews of other members, including Staff members who need to interject for whatever reason.

Thanks and carry on. :nod
This thread has been edited so that it is more inline with a study of related scripture. Since this thread is nothing more than an extension of the topic in the General forum, the only way we will allow it to continue is if it's treated like a Bible Study topic.

If not, it will be locked.
 
So lock it , if the pacifists had a decent response it would have been posted. The meddling and personal complaints have exposed that position for what it is.
 
At a minimum, both the Old Testament and the New Testament pretty clearly endorse the right of just governments to put people to death for various crimes:

Genesis 9:5-6, ESV
And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.
"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

Exodus 21:12-14, ESV
"Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death. But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place to which he may flee. But if a man willfully attacks another to kill him by cunning, you shall take him from my altar, that he may die."

Leviticus 24:17, 22, ESV
"Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death. ... You shall have the same rule for the sojourner and for the native, for I am the LORD your God."

While we're all familar with these passages it is frequently pointed out that Christ overturned these laws through his various teachings like "turn the other cheek," "don't resist the evil person," and "don't repay evil for evil." We can argue whether these verses are universally applicable, as pascifists believe, or were a paradigm change only intended for the personal lives of his followers, but regardless of our conclusions on those teaching Jesus appears to uphold the rightness of capital punishment in contrast to the way the Pharisees mishandled the law:

Matthew 15:1-6, ESV
Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, "What you would have gained from me is given to God,"he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.

Of course, many point out that this was still before the the death of Christ, and as such, the Mosaic Law was still in effect. While I do agree with that, we can't argue that Paul acknowledges the government's right to kill some people for crimes deserving of death:

Acts 25:10-12, ESV
But Paul said, "I am standing before Caesar’s tribunal, where I ought to be tried. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you yourself know very well. If then I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything for which I deserve to die, I do not seek to escape death. But if there is nothing to their charges against me, no one can give me up to them. I appeal to Caesar."

Romans 13:1-5, ESV
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

God's perspective on capital punishment seems to be consist throughout the whole arc of the Bible, He legitimized it before the Mosaic law was established, in the giving of the Mosaic law, and after Christ's death and resurrection.

The biggest question to answer is, "Is a violent response to certain actions ever appropriate?" and the answer seems to be an unequivical "Yes." Once that's out of the way, we can begin to tackle other questions such as, "who, then, has the authority to legitimately use violence in defense of innocents?" and "what kind of actions may legitimately be met with violent resistance and when is such resistance appropriate?"
 
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