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Type 1 Eunuch

B

BigSodaExposer

Member
Jesus said its not for everyone to marry. He listed these as Eunuchs.

According to Jesus there are three types of Eunuchs (mathew 19:12)

1.Those born eunuch from the womb
2.those made eunuch by men
3.those who make themselves eunuch for the sake of the faith

What then is an Eunuch exactly?
Websters dictionary -
1
: a castrated man placed in charge of a harem or employed as a chamberlain in a palace
2
: a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals
3
: one that lacks virility or power <political eunuchs>


What then of type 1 Eunuch's? An autistic or schizophrenic could be a type 1 Eunuch. Because they were born that way from the womb. Their physical temples are defective from the womb. They do not desire the things that others desire. Nor do they learn the same as the majority. They are mentally disabled and require parental supervision. They have genuine cognitive impairments. A schizophrenic only accounts for .5 to 1 percent of the entire population. They may not ever become married, nor desire it.

The old testament portrays Eunuchs as those that take care of a harem of women, therefore a man without sexual desire and lust would be desired to be around such large quantities of women.
 
Eunuchs of harems were in many cases made eunuchs by their masters. So maybe sticking to Jesus definitions are somewhat clearer than man's.

There are different levels of autism, there are also different levels of mental age development, so to lump them together as all being eunuchs is just not stating facts.

I've never heard that a person suffering from schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc. would not because of some physical defect not have desire, although they may choose not to live it out for different reasons. So in away I can see your point.
 
I agree. Here's how I understand these definitions.

1.Those born eunuch from the womb
This would be someone born sterile.

2.those made eunuch by men
This would be someone that is castrated or somehow rendered sterile, most likely by force.

3.those who make themselves eunuch for the sake of the faith
This would be someone that chose to be castrated or rendered sterile.
 
Definition number 3:
What about a guy (or a female, for that matter) who is fully functional but, for the sake of heaven, gives up their sexual impulse voluntarily? That counts as a spiritual eunuch, does it not? They don't have to be castrated to be a eunuch. Seriously. They don't.

Nowadays, with the prevalence of fornication and the assumed (and constitutionally guaranteed right) of the pursuit of "happiness" there is very little (if any) discussion of lifetime abstinence. But this is indeed one of the qualities that all Overcomers can share in. The ability to walk by faith and resist sin; Job made a covenant with his eyes (see Job, chapter 31). He understood something and put God first (even above his own pleasures). But don't mis-understand me, please. I know that Job was married and had children -- he was not a eunuch. But his was the kind of self-guarding before God that is set as an example of righteousness. Also I am not disagreeing with Paul - this is not for everybody. It's better to marry than to burn (whatever that means --> :shock )

Job said:
Does He not see my ways, And count all my steps?
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That was only part of why God spoke of His righteousness as notable: "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil." [Job 1:1 NKJV]


Also, regarding "rendered sterile"? If this means having vasectomy? Then it does not count as being a eunuch because some men have this done in order to have "worry free" sexual relations. But there could be another meaning that I'm missing too. WIP? Your thoughts, please?
 
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I guess I was using too broad a term when using the word sterile (I was trying to be less graphic). What I meant was I understand it to be...
1. Born a eunuch would imply born with no sexual organs.
2. Made a eunuch by man implies surgically removing the sexual organs.
3. Making one's self a eunuch implies choosing to remove one's own sexual organs.

I also think it implies that sexual desire goes out the window as a result.

I'm not saying I'm right but this is how I understand it.
 
I'm thinking that my personal decision to forgo sexual relations also puts me in the category of eunuch - at least after a fashion. And I don't need to remove any sexual organs but only need to guard my mind with a double lock. There is an "avert the eyes" habit that helps but mostly it is the prayers of my friends and their thoughtful understanding that buoys me along.

I went once (years ago) to a brother in the church. He was an older brother who I respected. And I confessed my struggle with the sin of lust and asked if he would consider agreeing with me so that we could ask the Lord to remove all sexual desire. But he, being wise, said, "No." The he proposed an alternative request. That the Lord put this to sleep for me. So that I would not be strongly tempted and pulled off the path by desire or lust. So that I could continue as a single (not married) man and do so without undue troubles. He was concerned because what he really wanted for me was that the Lord provide a wife. But I've not asked for this.

So that's the prayer that was offered and that's why I amuse myself with the term "eunch for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" even though I am not chemically nor physically castrated. In other words, do you insist on a physical removal? I'm not so sure.
 
I work with teenaged Down syndrome, autistic and mentally retarded people for a living. From what I have observed, most all of them have the desires of a normal person. Even the ones with limited cognitive ability. Some of them even have boyfriend and girlfriend relationships and talk about getting married. Although I don't know any that have actually ever been married.
 
Deborah13 said:
Eunuchs of harems were in many cases made eunuchs by their masters. So maybe sticking to Jesus definitions are somewhat clearer than man's.

There are different levels of autism, there are also different levels of mental age development, so to lump them together as all being eunuchs is just not stating facts.

I've never heard that a person suffering from schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc. would not because of some physical defect not have desire, although they may choose not to live it out for different reasons. So in away I can see your point.
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Deborah, loss of desire is a symptom of negative schizophrenia. http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/schizophrenia-symptoms
 
WIP said:
I agree. Here's how I understand these definitions.

1.Those born eunuch from the womb
This would be someone born sterile.

2.those made eunuch by men
This would be someone that is castrated or somehow rendered sterile, most likely by force.

3.those who make themselves eunuch for the sake of the faith
This would be someone that chose to be castrated or rendered sterile.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
Sparrowhawke said:
I'm thinking that my personal decision to forgo sexual relations also puts me in the category of eunuch - at least after a fashion. And I don't need to remove any sexual organs but only need to guard my mind with a double lock. There is an "avert the eyes" habit that helps but mostly it is the prayers of my friends and their thoughtful understanding that buoys me along.

I went once (years ago) to a brother in the church. He was an older brother who I respected. And I confessed my struggle with the sin of lust and asked if he would consider agreeing with me so that we could ask the Lord to remove all sexual desire. But he, being wise, said, "No." The he proposed an alternative request. That the Lord put this to sleep for me. So that I would not be strongly tempted and pulled off the path by desire or lust. So that I could continue as a single (not married) man and do so without undue troubles. He was concerned because what he really wanted for me was that the Lord provide a wife. But I've not asked for this.

So that's the prayer that was offered and that's why I amuse myself with the term "eunch for the sake of the kingdom of heaven" even though I am not chemically nor physically castrated. In other words, do you insist on a physical removal? I'm not so sure.
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Thanks for your testimony. I imagine Jesus wasn't talking about physical castration when he said this of type 3 eunuchs. Because one could have a frontal lobotomy done like old school psychiatry and they would have no desire or personality. There would not be verses about thought control in the bible if a mandatory action was required like circumcision of a male child on the 8th day.
 
BigSodaExposer said:
Deborah, loss of desire is a symptom of negative schizophrenia. http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/schizophrenia-symptoms
Click to expand...

Considering meds and depression I can see how it could affect their mental state. But not something that is necessarily dysfunction in this area itself. I don't see anything in this article that I wasn't aware of.
I don't think this is what Jesus was referring to.

BigSodaExposer said:
Thanks, but are they required to marry?
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Is there a scripture that requires someone to marry?
 
jeff77 said:
I work with teenaged Down syndrome, autistic and mentally retarded people for a living. From what I have observed, most all of them have the desires of a normal person. Even the ones with limited cognitive ability. Some of them even have boyfriend and girlfriend relationships and talk about getting married. Although I don't know any that have actually ever been married.
Click to expand...

I disagree with that statement. If they were just like everyone else would they be in a special group to be worked with? Its not that they have no desire, but that they do not have the same desires as the majority. Else they would be just like the majority. And when speaking of such individuals its really hard to classify them. Like snowflakes, no two are the same. One cannot say "well I work with an autistic child so I know how all autistic children are". Since we do not observe reality from within their brain we will never truly know how they experience reality. There are many medical books out there that classify different types of schizophrenics based on symptoms.

I may be "assuming" too much, to say any disabled child is a born eunuch. But then again, maybe that does apply to a born eunuch? I personally have never heard of a male child being born without genitals, and I have heard of some weird stuff during my life. But it is common to hear of children born with mental defects that are exposed as the child ages.
 
Deborah13 said:
Considering meds and depression I can see how it could affect their mental state. But not something that is necessarily dysfunction in this area itself. I don't see anything in this article that I wasn't aware of.
I don't think this is what Jesus was referring to.



Is there a scripture that requires someone to marry?
Click to expand...

Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Mathew 19:4-6 "
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

I dunno if that could be considered a requirement, or just the correct way life should fall into place under God.


Deborah I have another interesting one for you. When Jesus cast the devils out of the man at gadarenes. The one who said his name was legion for we are many, afterward the devils went into the swine and ran down the steep bank and killed themselves in the sea. That man who was naked and possessed, went and put some clothes on and was at Jesus feet. The bible says he was then in his RIGHT mind. Luke 8:35 "Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid." This verse suggest anyone under devil possession is not in their right mind. Are disabled children in their "right" mind or do they believe they are right?
 
BigSodaExposer said:
Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

Mathew 19:4-6 "
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

I dunno if that could be considered a requirement, or just the correct way life should fall into place under God.


Deborah I have another interesting one for you. When Jesus cast the devils out of the man at gadarenes. The one who said his name was legion for we are many, afterward the devils went into the swine and ran down the steep bank and killed themselves in the sea. That man who was naked and possessed, went and put some clothes on and was at Jesus feet. The bible says he was then in his RIGHT mind. Luke 8:35 "Then they went out to see what was done; and came to Jesus, and found the man, out of whom the devils were departed, sitting at the feet of Jesus, clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid." This verse suggest anyone under devil possession is not in their right mind. Are disabled children in their "right" mind or do they believe they are right?
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I don't know what you are trying to get at. Your question is rhetorical is it not?
I the only thing I am committing to right now is what I think Jesus meant when He described eunuchs. Which appears to me to be an inability to have desire caused by the physical castration (born without, or by man's hand) or controlling one's desire by God's grace in order to serve Him only.
In the first two cases if we were to include thoughts as being included in this than the second type depending on when he was made a eunuch may not stop thoughts of desire only physical inability.
Maybe I can use an example that would be a eunuch physically but not mentally. Some pedophiles have chosen to be made the second type of eunuch in order to be released early from prison. Even though there was no physical reason for them to assault child, some do. Some just watch children in school yards, etc. Their minds still desire and they find ways to get around the physical.
 
BigSodaExposer said:
I disagree with that statement. If they were just like everyone else would they be in a special group to be worked with? Its not that they have no desire, but that they do not have the same desires as the majority. Else they would be just like the majority. And when speaking of such individuals its really hard to classify them. Like snowflakes, no two are the same. One cannot say "well I work with an autistic child so I know how all autistic children are". Since we do not observe reality from within their brain we will never truly know how they experience reality. There are many medical books out there that classify different types of schizophrenics based on symptoms.

I may be "assuming" too much, to say any disabled child is a born eunuch. But then again, maybe that does apply to a born eunuch? I personally have never heard of a male child being born without genitals, and I have heard of some weird stuff during my life. But it is common to hear of children born with mental defects that are exposed as the child ages.
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They are in a special group because of the learning disability that comes along with autism, downs syndrome and others. They can't succeed in the general ed classroom. When I said "desire", I was talking about sexual desires. I sure can't say 100% of them don't have any, but from what I have seen they almost all have them. No different from the "normal" population of people.
 
The only child ever born perfect was Jesus... so i guess every one else is a eunuch of some degree...
 
jeff77 said:
They are in a special group because of the learning disability that comes along with autism, downs syndrome and others. They can't succeed in the general ed classroom. When I said "desire", I was talking about sexual desires. I sure can't say 100% of them don't have any, but from what I have seen they almost all have them. No different from the "normal" population of people.
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Does sexual desire = having the same opportunities at seeking employment and building their own family as the "normal" majority? Science theorizes that autistics and schizophrenics have less dopamine in the frontal lobes. Because of this they will never have the same work efficiency as everyone else. A real physical defect would mean a non perfect body temple. It came imperfect from the factory. These kids do not have to defile their temple with drug abuse in order to be under achievers. They will never be able to wake up sober one day and just get over it. What they live in is a reality to them. Such a birth defect comes all the way from the womb. Sexual desire and lust do not equal the same longing for commitment to marry and build a family as everyone else.
 
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