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Unconditional election: what are we all doing here on earth?

U

undertow

Guest
This is a question for those that believe in unconditional election: What are we doing here? It can't be about giving us the opportunity of whether we accept or reject salvation, because that isn't down to us. Presumably, if God wanted to, he could create the elect and send them straight to heaven, and he could send others straight to hell immediately after creating them. What purpose does God have in giving us a life on earth?
 
+JMJ+

To know God, to love God, and serve God.
 
Quote: We are here for God's glory alone.

True, although we may disagree on who and what glorifies God.

Psa 50:23 Whoso offers praise glorifies me: And to him who orders his way aright I shall show the salvation of God.

Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

1Cr 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
 
Fulton Sheen's Warrior said:
To know God, to love God, and serve God.
Click to expand...

Couldn't the elect know and love God if they went straight to heaven? And the non-elect can't be here for the reasons you have given.

lovely said:
We are here for God's glory alone.
Click to expand...

But what is God's purpose in giving us a life on earth? How does this achieve his glory?
 
lovely said:
We are here for God's glory alone.
Click to expand...

:D you took the words right out of my mouth!

Consider:

Deuteronomy 10:14-15 God set his heart in love = chose
Psalm 33:12 God chooses his own heritage
Psalm 65:4 Chosen to dwell in his courts
Psalm 106:5 God's chosen ones
Haggai 2:23 God chose Zerubbabel
Matthew 11:27 Only the one the Son chooses know the Father
Matthew 22:14 Many are called, but few are chosen
Matthew 24:22, 24, 31 days shortened for the elect the elect cannot
be deceived gathering of the elect
Luke 18:7 God will vindicate his elect
Romans 8:28-30 Called according to God's purpose
Romans 8:33 These (28-30) are God's elect
Colossians 3:12 God's chosen ones
1 Thessalonians 5:9 God has destined us to obtain salvation
Titus 1:1-2 to further the faith of God's elect
1 Peter 1:1,2 the exiles who were chosen and destined
1 Peter 2:8,9 some stumble because they were destined to,
but others are a chosen race who have been called.
Revelation 17:14 Those with Christ are called and chosen and faithful
Mark 13:20 God did the choosing
Ephesians 1:4 It was done before the foundation of the world
Revelation 13:8 God chose people, not just a plan
Revelation 17:8 God chose people, not just a plan
Romans 9:11-13 God's choice not based on anything creaturely
Romans 9:16 Not based on man's will or man's exertion
Romans 10:20 God found by those who did NOT seek him
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 God chose the foolish, weak, low and despised
specifically so that no flesh could boast that ANY PART of their salvation was from them.

2 Timothy 1:9 not by our works, but because of his own purpose
Ephesians 1:11-12 Works are the result not the cause of election
Ephesians 2:10 Works are the result not the cause of election
John 15:16 Apostles did not choose Christ, but he chose.
Acts 13:48 Those who were ordained believed.
Acts 18:27 Those who believed did so through grace
Philippians 1:29 Granted to us to believe
Philippians 2:12-13 God wills his pleasure in us
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 Because chosen, the word came in
power of Holy Spirit and not just words of men.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 God chose them from the beginning to be saved.
James 2:5 God has chosen the poor to become rich to faith

Election is NOT salvation, but is unto salvation
(Romans 11:7, 2 Timothy 2:10; etc)

Exodus 33:19 God's mercy based on his will
Deuteronomy 7:6-7 (esp. 7) chosen-ness not based on something good in the chosen.

The doctrine of election is really the biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God
as it applies to the doctrine of salvation.

Deuteronomy 7:6 God chose the nation of Israel for no good thing in the nation.
Luke 6:13 Jesus chose disciples whom also he named apostles
John 17:16 A group of men belonged to the Father and he gave them to Christ
Acts 9:15 Paul was also a chosen vessel, as were the other apostles
Exodus 33:19 God will be gracious to whom he pleases
Deuteronomy 4:37 chosen-ness based on being beloved
Joshua 11:20 Decisions of the wicked are result of God's hardening
Job 23:14 God does that which he has appointed
Psalm 65:4 The man is blest who is chosen to enter God's house
Jeremiah 1:5 God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb
Matthew 20:16 external call not the same as election
Matthew 25:44 The kingdom prepared for some people from foundation of the world
2 Timothy 1:11 Paul appointed a preacher, an apostle, a teacher
2 Timothy 2:10 Paul endures all things for the elect's sake
2 Timothy 2:19 The Lord knows them that are his
Hebrews 2:13 Behold, I and the children God gave me - applied to Christ
John 17:2 Christ gives life to those who were given to him by the Father
Ephesians 1:5 God predestinated us to adoption according the
good pleasure of his will.

- Compiled by Richard Bacon
 
I have severe doubts about the correctness of unconditional election, and certainly any form of it that involves the following (as per the "Westminster Confession") (I added the bolding):

"Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of his free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto.."

I will repost material I wrote a while ago in relation to this very issue.

If God did not die for all, but only for some, then we are naturally inclined to ask "On what basis did He choose the elect?, what was his basis for selecting Fred but not Joe" It is commonly claimed that God did not take any account whatsoever of the attributes of Fred or Joe. And yet it is also argued that his choice was not purely random or arbitrary - he did not "pick Fred's name out of a hat". So, some claim that God chose Fred (but not Joe) in such a manner as to not take into account any of Fred's "attributes" or "properties", and yet the choice was not arbitrary.

This does not seem like a viable position to hold.

Presumably even God has to "represent" both Fred and Joe in his own mind - He must be able to distinguish between them. I suggest that we simply cannot make sense of the idea that God's choice had nothing to do with the particularities of Joe and Fred. The only way that any entity (man or God) can distunguish people is based on one or more of their atttributes. When you take away all of Fred's attributes, there is simply nothing else left. If God is looking at Fred and Joe and chooses to utterly ignore all their attributes, God will simply see Fred and Joe as identical, and any choice He would make would necessarily be arbitrary (random).

The way the world is put together simply makes it impossible for God to distinguish Fred from Joe, except in terms of distinguishing attributes.

You may think I am playing word games here. I do not think that I am. The world is made up of objects and objects have properties that inhere in them (the object is constituted by its properties). What makes Fred "Fred" and Joe "Joe" are their respective properties. Fred and Joe cannot be represented in anyone's mind (even God's) except in terms of these properties. The only reason we do not see the world as a huge undifferentiated blob, is that we can break the world down into objects. And if we think carefully, it is the properties that effectively "make the object an object" for us.

We cannot sensibly talk about selection that is not based on properties - the structure of the world has not left that option open, even for God.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Unconditional election: what are we all doing here on ea

undertow said:
This is a question for those that believe in unconditional election: What are we doing here? It can't be about giving us the opportunity of whether we accept or reject salvation, because that isn't down to us. Presumably, if God wanted to, he could create the elect and send them straight to heaven, and he could send others straight to hell immediately after creating them. What purpose does God have in giving us a life on earth?
Click to expand...
There has never been UNconditional election.
Every promise God ever made, was on condition of obedience.

Israel was God's elect....as long as they obeyed God.

THEN.....the time came for them, to get their act together.......
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness...."They failed !!!
And Jesus told them that the Kingdom of God was to be taken from them.......
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
 
.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

.
 
JM wrote:
Consider:
Deuteronomy 10:14-15 God set his heart in love = chose
Psalm 33:12 God chooses his own heritage
Psalm 65:4 Chosen to dwell in his courts
Psalm 106:5 God's chosen ones
Haggai 2:23 God chose Zerubbabel
Matthew 11:27 Only the one the Son chooses know the Father
Matthew 22:14 Many are called, but few are chosen
Matthew 24:22, 24, 31 days shortened for the elect the elect cannot
be deceived gathering of the elect
Luke 18:7 God will vindicate his elect
Romans 8:28-30 Called according to God's purpose
Romans 8:33 These (28-30) are God's elect
Colossians 3:12 God's chosen ones
1 Thessalonians 5:9 God has destined us to obtain salvation
Titus 1:1-2 to further the faith of God's elect
1 Peter 1:1,2 the exiles who were chosen and destined
1 Peter 2:8,9 some stumble because they were destined to,
but others are a chosen race who have been called.
Revelation 17:14 Those with Christ are called and chosen and faithful
Mark 13:20 God did the choosing
Ephesians 1:4 It was done before the foundation of the world
Revelation 13:8 God chose people, not just a plan
Revelation 17:8 God chose people, not just a plan
Romans 9:11-13 God's choice not based on anything creaturely
Romans 9:16 Not based on man's will or man's exertion
Romans 10:20 God found by those who did NOT seek him
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 God chose the foolish, weak, low and despised
specifically so that no flesh could boast that ANY PART of their salvation was from them.
2 Timothy 1:9 not by our works, but because of his own purpose
Ephesians 1:11-12 Works are the result not the cause of election
Ephesians 2:10 Works are the result not the cause of election
John 15:16 Apostles did not choose Christ, but he chose.
Acts 13:48 Those who were ordained believed.
Acts 18:27 Those who believed did so through grace
Philippians 1:29 Granted to us to believe
Philippians 2:12-13 God wills his pleasure in us
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 Because chosen, the word came in
power of Holy Spirit and not just words of men.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 God chose them from the beginning to be saved.
James 2:5 God has chosen the poor to become rich to faith
Election is NOT salvation, but is unto salvation
(Romans 11:7, 2 Timothy 2:10; etc)
Exodus 33:19 God's mercy based on his will
Deuteronomy 7:6-7 (esp. 7) chosen-ness not based on something good in the chosen.
The doctrine of election is really the biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God
as it applies to the doctrine of salvation.
Deuteronomy 7:6 God chose the nation of Israel for no good thing in the nation.
Luke 6:13 Jesus chose disciples whom also he named apostles
John 17:16 A group of men belonged to the Father and he gave them to Christ
Acts 9:15 Paul was also a chosen vessel, as were the other apostles
Exodus 33:19 God will be gracious to whom he pleases
Deuteronomy 4:37 chosen-ness based on being beloved
Joshua 11:20 Decisions of the wicked are result of God's hardening
Job 23:14 God does that which he has appointed
Psalm 65:4 The man is blest who is chosen to enter God's house
Jeremiah 1:5 God knew Jeremiah before he was formed in the womb
Matthew 20:16 external call not the same as election
Matthew 25:44 The kingdom prepared for some people from foundation of the world
2 Timothy 1:11 Paul appointed a preacher, an apostle, a teacher
2 Timothy 2:10 Paul endures all things for the elect's sake
2 Timothy 2:19 The Lord knows them that are his
Hebrews 2:13 Behold, I and the children God gave me - applied to Christ
John 17:2 Christ gives life to those who were given to him by the Father
Ephesians 1:5 God predestinated us to adoption according the
good pleasure of his will.
Click to expand...


Impressive list. What I understand is that God chose that those who do his will from the heart, whoever they might be, without respect of a person’s nationality, position or wealth, would be placed in Christ and inherit the promise of eternal life. These are the ones who are elected to obtain salvation, and they make their own fate by the choices that they make. He chose that whosoever would choose to follow his teaching of love, humility, forgiveness, faith and holiness would be given eternal life. It is God’s will that it be according to what we choose to do. Scripture makes it clear that everyone and anyone, regardless of who they are, that follows the teachings of Christ would be saved. That's as close to 'unconditional election' as I can get by reading scripture.

Not all references to election, etc. are speaking in regard to their eternal destiny. God does choose some for specific ministries and tasks. You can’t just arbitrarily take a verse that says that God chose some man to be prophet or king before he was born and apply it to all men in regard to their salvation! That is totally unwarranted.
 
Solo said:
.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

.
Click to expand...
You are correct !
This is a identifying mark of the 'elect', which fits perfectly with Revelation 14:12........
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
Drew said:
If God did not die for all, but only for some, then we are naturally inclined to ask "On what basis did He choose the elect?, what was his basis for selecting Fred but not Joe" It is commonly claimed that God did not take any account whatsoever of the attributes of Fred or Joe. And yet it is also argued that his choice was not purely random or arbitrary - he did not "pick Fred's name out of a hat". So, some claim that God chose Fred (but not Joe) in such a manner as to not take into account any of Fred's "attributes" or "properties", and yet the choice was not arbitrary.

This does not seem like a viable position to hold.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think you may well be right about this. At least, I can't think of a way that unconditional election wouldn't be random. Do we have any Calvinists around that are able to respond to what Drew is saying here?
 
Re: Unconditional election: what are we all doing here on ea

undertow said:
This is a question for those that believe in unconditional election: What are we doing here? It can't be about giving us the opportunity of whether we accept or reject salvation, because that isn't down to us. Presumably, if God wanted to, he could create the elect and send them straight to heaven, and he could send others straight to hell immediately after creating them. What purpose does God have in giving us a life on earth?
Click to expand...

Undertow
I agree withy Lovely 100% in her statement and may I also add that to the best of my knowledge God has never sent a person to hell. Since God gave us a free will then its on us. If we Choose Jesus we choose to live with him through all eternity, if we choose to reject Jesus we choose to go to hell. Our choice.
God in his goodness and love would not create a person for the sole reason of sending that person to hell. Its Illogical.
 
Undertow wrote:
Yeah, I think you may well be right about this. At least, I can't think of a way that unconditional election wouldn't be random. Do we have any Calvinists around that are able to respond to what Drew is saying here?
Click to expand...

That’s it… it’s the divine crap shoot… :roll:
 
Re: Unconditional election: what are we all doing here on ea

jgredline said:
Undertow
I agree withy Lovely 100% in her statement
Click to expand...

To be honest, it would be nice to get a little more detail than, "for the glory of God".
 
Re: Unconditional election: what are we all doing here on ea

undertow said:
jgredline said:
Undertow
I agree withy Lovely 100% in her statement
Click to expand...

To be honest, it would be nice to get a little more detail than, "for the glory of God".
Click to expand...

There is no more detail that I know of.
We were created to worship THE CREATOR, THE ALL MIGHTY, YESHUA, THE TRIUNE GOD. I am thankful that he thought enough about me to create me for him even though I am a mess. How cool is that. Even though I am a messed up wreck he created me for him. If thats not love I don't know what love us. Glory be to God All Mighty..
 
Re: Unconditional election: what are we all doing here on ea

jgredline said:
There is no more detail that I know of.
Click to expand...

But you shouldn't be trying to answer the question, as you don't believe in unconditional election.
 
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