Under theLAW

[stovebolts]

I've often heard that we are not under the LAW anymore and hence, it is inferred that the Law is bad... often with shades of malice and discord.

I am asking the below questions with the presupposition that a conditional covenant between God and the Israelites was agreed upon after the exodus from Egypt. The intent of these laws were multifaceted and included statements such as, Leviticus 20:26 And you shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from other people, that you should be mine.

Was the Law given to Moses bad...
or
Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?
Conclusion
What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses? What was God trying to achieve through them and how does that apply to our lives today?

 

[cyberjosh]

I've often heard that we are not under the LAW anymore and hence, it is inferred that the Law is bad... often with shades of malice and discord.

2 Corinthians chapter 3 deals with this:

5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

12Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,

13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Paul also calls the law good:

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
" (Romans 7:12-13)

"But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. " (Romans 7:16)

"But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, " (1 Timothy 1:8)

 

[stovebolts]

So your saying that the way the law was later interpreted and applied was wrong?

What do you believe the purpose of the law was to achieve?

 

[TanNinety]

Was the Law given to Moses bad...
No.

or

Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?
Yes. Proof: Jesus spent a lot of His time correcting many misinterpretations of scripture/law throughout His time of ministry.

Conclusion
What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses?
To establish God’s kingdom on earth.

What was God trying to achieve through them
The final goal of the law was to achieve the gospel. What is the gospel? The good news of God's everlasting kingdom to be established on earth.

How does that apply to our lives today?
The law has never been done away with. The sooner we realize this the sooner that kingdom that everyone is awaiting so eagerly for will be found and established.
Luke 17:20-21 "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country.' For the Kingdom of God is within you."

How can one enter this kingdom of God that is within oneself? By keeping the commands of God. Like Jesus prayed, “your kingdom come, let thy will be done on earth as it is in heavenâ€Â. The coming of the kingdom cannot be separated from doing the will of the Father in heaven. The will of the Father cannot be separated from His law. (The law like it was meant to be ..not the way man has twisted it during the years ..how can one follow the untwisted law? ..follow the words of Jesus for He revealed and fulfilled the law like we are supposed to keep it)

 

[Georges]

Was the Law given to Moses bad...
No.

or

Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?
Yes. Proof: Jesus spent a lot of His time correcting many misinterpretations of scripture/law throughout His time of ministry.

Conclusion
What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses?
To establish God’s kingdom on earth.

What was God trying to achieve through them
The final goal of the law was to achieve the gospel. What is the gospel? The good news of God's everlasting kingdom to be established on earth.

How does that apply to our lives today?
The law has never been done away with. The sooner we realize this the sooner that kingdom that everyone is awaiting so eagerly for will be found and established.
Luke 17:20-21 "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country.' For the Kingdom of God is within you."

How can one enter this kingdom of God that is within oneself? By keeping the commands of God. Like Jesus prayed, “your kingdom come, let thy will be done on earth as it is in heavenâ€Â. The coming of the kingdom cannot be separated from doing the will of the Father in heaven. The will of the Father cannot be separated from His law. (The law like it was meant to be ..not the way man has twisted it during the years ..how can one follow the untwisted law? ..follow the words of Jesus for He revealed and fulfilled the law like we are supposed to keep it)

On the nosey......

 

[stovebolts]

TanNinety,
Very good. I enjoyed your response.

If nobody objects, it may be a good thing to remember these things in future debates ;-)

 

[TanNinety]

TanNinety,
Very good. I enjoyed your response.

If nobody objects, it may be a good thing to remember these things in future debates ;-)

But I hardly believe anyone would want to remember these things in a debate. Most of our responses/actions fall right in parallel with what Adam and Eve did in the garden. There is something about the term being "under" the law that turns people off. It necessitates a feeling to be beyond it, being the lovers of super heroes, we all want to be above the law. But for most of us being above the law is easy by breaking the law than to actually keep the law by understanding the principle behind it. That’s why we all run for grace rather than repentance.

If death and resurrection of Jesus was ALL it took for salvation then God could have blessed Eve with Jesus. Cain being Cain could have killed Jesus the righteous. God resurrects Jesus. Adam and Eve believe in Jesus as their personal savior. *Bam* Earth is restored to its original state. Why drag the story for all these years?

Because, its hard for us to understand that faith is not the same as faithfulness. Faith is knowing God has ordained the law and it will not return to Him empty and will remain until heaven and earth pass away. Faithfulness is acting according to the law. Does faith save or faithfulness? The words of Jesus in Revelation seem to indicate that faithfulness is what saves.

 

[Atonement]

I believe the law was given to Moses to prepair the way for Christ. Through the law there is none righteous but through Christ we are redeemed through His Blood.

 

[CatholicXian]

The purpose of the Law was to force the Israelites to realize that they needed God. The Law made them keenly aware of their transgressions (sins) and the need to repent (cf. Romans 3:20). I think this is what was being referred to in Ezekiel: "I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances through which they could not live. I let them become defiled by their gifts, by their immolation of every first-born, so as to make them an object of horror" (Ezekiel 20:25). The Israelites couldn't keep any of the covenants they established with God... and this clearly paves the way to underscore God's love in Christ.

 

[jgredline]

Jeff
Great topic and long overdue.

 

[TanNinety]

The purpose of the Law was to force the Israelites to realize that they needed God. The Law made them keenly aware of their transgressions (sins) and the need to repent (cf. Romans 3:20). I think this is what was being referred to in Ezekiel: "I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances through which they could not live. I let them become defiled by their gifts, by their immolation of every first-born, so as to make them an object of horror" (Ezekiel 20:25). The Israelites couldn't keep any of the covenants they established with God... and this clearly paves the way to underscore God's love in Christ.

Ezekiel 20 hardly refers to anything remotely substantiating the claim that the law was given to make israel realise they needed God.

On the contrary Ezekiel 20 has many references where God wished that israel kept the law so they could be given LIFE. Yeah living by God's law indeed brings life. It is not an impossbility. If it were, it makes no sense for God to act flustered when israel couldnt keep the law. That's just ironic. God gives israel the law that cannot be kept and when israel doesnt keep the law God gets angry? What kind of twisted God do we serve?

Ezekiel 20:21 "But their children, too, rebelled against me. They refused to keep my laws and follow my instructions, even though obeying them would have given them life. And they also violated my Sabbath days. So again I threatened to pour out my fury on them in the wilderness. 22 Nevertheless, I withdrew my judgment against them to protect the honor of my name among the nations who had seen my power in bringing them out of Egypt. 23 But I took a solemn oath against them while they were in the wilderness. I vowed I would scatter them among all the nations 24 because they did not obey my laws. They scorned my instructions by violating my Sabbath days and longing for the idols of their ancestors. 25 I gave them over to worthless customs and laws that would not lead to life. 26 I let them pollute themselves with the very gifts I had given them, and I allowed them to give their firstborn children as offerings to their gods-so I might devastate them and show them that I alone am the Lord.

God let israel follow their worthless gods and statutes that they brought from egypt because of their hardened hearts. He did not give these worthless statutes Himself.

Please read the whole chapter of Ezekiel 20 before coming to the conclusion God established worthless laws just to make israel transgress.

 

[CatholicXian]

Whoa, TanNinety... I did not say the Law was given to "make" Israel transgress. But it be pretty hard to dispute that Israel was incapable of keeping the Law on their own--have you read all 613 precepts? Furthermore, I did not call the Law "worthless"... you are reading WAY more into my post than was intended. Did you read the reference I gave from Romans? Even Paul admits that the Law made him aware of his transgressions. Thus, by extension, the need for God.

As to your translation of Ezekiel.. pull out the Hebrew, if you have access to Strong's it's H5414. God "gave" the Israelites laws that were "not good". I don't dispute the hardness of hearts... but this only furthers my point that God was drawing them to repentance by having them realize that they could not keep the Laws on their own-- they needed God. Life only comes through grace, and grace only comes through God.

 

[Solo]

Was the Law given to Moses bad...
No.

or

Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?
Yes. Proof: Jesus spent a lot of His time correcting many misinterpretations of scripture/law throughout His time of ministry.

Conclusion
What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses?
To establish God’s kingdom on earth.

What was God trying to achieve through them
The final goal of the law was to achieve the gospel. What is the gospel? The good news of God's everlasting kingdom to be established on earth.

How does that apply to our lives today?
The law has never been done away with. The sooner we realize this the sooner that kingdom that everyone is awaiting so eagerly for will be found and established.
Luke 17:20-21 "The Kingdom of God isn't ushered in with visible signs. You won't be able to say, 'It has begun here in this place or there in that part of the country.' For the Kingdom of God is within you."

How can one enter this kingdom of God that is within oneself? By keeping the commands of God. Like Jesus prayed, “your kingdom come, let thy will be done on earth as it is in heavenâ€Â. The coming of the kingdom cannot be separated from doing the will of the Father in heaven. The will of the Father cannot be separated from His law. (The law like it was meant to be ..not the way man has twisted it during the years ..how can one follow the untwisted law? ..follow the words of Jesus for He revealed and fulfilled the law like we are supposed to keep it)

Can one keep the law without the Holy Spirit?

 

[jgredline]

:smt018

 

[TanNinety]

Whoa, TanNinety... I did not say the Law was given to "make" Israel transgress.

I deduced that from your post. Sorry if you didn't mean it. But...

"I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances through which they could not live. I let them become defiled by their gifts, by their immolation of every first-born, so as to make them an object of horror" (Ezekiel 20:25). The Israelites couldn't keep any of the covenants they established with God... and this clearly paves the way to underscore God's love in Christ.

...it seemed like you said israel couldn't keep any of the covenants because God designed their ordinances that way.

I did not call the Law "worthless"... you are reading WAY more into my post than was intended.

Sorry again, but I wasn't saying you said the law was "worthless", I was quoting the scripture that I posted which implied that.

As to your translation of Ezekiel.. pull out the Hebrew, if you have access to Strong's it's H5414. God "gave" the Israelites laws that were "not good".

Looked it up:
1) to give, bestow, grant, permit, ascribe, employ, devote, consecrate, dedicate, pay wages, sell, exchange, lend, commit, entrust, give over, deliver up, yield produce, occasion, produce, requite to, report, mention, utter, stretch out, extend

 

[TanNinety]

Can one keep the law without the Holy Spirit?

Will holy spirit be given to a heart that rejects God's law?

 

[Spirit Driven]

I think the Law does a wonderfull job of bringing us to Jesus.... I once heard the Law described as Mr Death... bringing us to Mr Life.

I think the key to understanding that, is that the Law should never be candy coated or watered down.... it should be upheld in all its terror to be seen by all for what its is.... the condemer and killer of all men.

Then they will turn to Jesus for sure.... he is their only hope now.
Thus the Law has been used Lawfully and to whom it pertains.

This is why the Law will never pass away.


Grace and Peace to you

 

[Solo]

Can one keep the law without the Holy Spirit?

Will holy spirit be given to a heart that rejects God's law?

Can a heart accept God's Law without the Holy Spirit?

 

[Spirit Driven]

Can a heart accept God's Law without the Holy Spirit?

To answer the original question, only Jesus was able to full fill the law, no other person will ever be able to do that, they will condemn themselves to death trying.

Grace and Peace to you

 

[TanNinety]

Can a heart accept God's Law without the Holy Spirit?

Yes. If not, then God was doing it all wrong to begin with, with israel. He should have given them holy spirit first and then the law, then it would have worked out like He planned.