Under theLAW

[TanNinety]

Dear Spirit Driven,

I think the Law does a wonderfull job of bringing us to Jesus

I think it is the other way around. Jesus does a wonderful job of bringing us to the law like it was meant to be kept. He never directed us away from it.

.... I once heard the Law described as Mr Death... bringing us to Mr Life.

Ezekiel 20:21 They refused to keep my laws and follow my instructions, even though obeying them would have given them life.
Law should be described as Mr Life

Matthew 19:17And He(Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Even Jesus said keeping the law/commandments brings eternal life.

Then they will turn to Jesus for sure.... he is their only hope now.

Even Jesus directed us to the perfect law of God. He was here to fulfill not abolish the law.

 

[Solo]

Can a heart accept God's Law without the Holy Spirit?

Yes. If not, then God was doing it all wrong to begin with, with israel. He should have given them holy spirit first and then the law, then it would have worked out like He planned.

Is the Law of the Spirit or of the flesh?

 

[JM]

Notice first that in the picture by which, in Romans 7:1-4, Paul illustrates our deliverance from the Law, there is only one woman, while there are two husbands. The woman is in a very difficult position, for she can only be wife of one of the two, and unfortunately she is married to the less desirable one. Let us make no mistake, the man to whom she is married is a good man; but the trouble lies here, that the husband and wife are totally unsuited to one another. He is a most particular man, accurate to a degree; she on the other hand is decidedly easy-going. With him all is definite and precise; with her all is casual and haphazard. He wants everything just so, while she takes things as they come. How could there be happiness in such a home?

And then that husband is so exacting! He is always making demands upon her. And yet one cannot find fault with him, for as a husband he has a right to expect something of his wife; and besides, all his demands are perfectly legitimate. There is nothing wrong with the man and nothing wrong with his demands; the trouble is that he has the wrong kind of wife to carry them out. The two cannot get on at all; theirs are utterly incompatible natures. Thus the poor woman is in great distress. She is fully aware that she often makes mistakes, but living with such a husband it seems as though EVERYTHING she says and does is wrong! What hope is there for her? If only she were married to that other Man all would be well. He is no less exacting than her husband, but He also helps much. She would fain marry Him, but her husband is still alive. What can she do? She is "bound by law to the husband" and unless he dies she cannot legitimately marry that other Man.

The first husband is the Law; the second husband is Christ; and you are the woman. The law requires much, but offers no help in the carrying out of its requirements. The Lord Jesus requires just as much, yea more, but what He requires from us He Himself carries out in us. The law makes demands and leaves us helpless to fulfill them; Christ makes demands, but He Himself fulfills in us the very demands He makes. Little wonder that the woman desires to be freed from the first husband that she may marry that other Man! But her only hope of release is through the death of her first husband, and he holds on to life most tenaciously. Indeed there is not the least prospect of his passing away (see Matthew 5:18).

The law is going to continue for all eternity. If the Law will never pass away, then how can I ever be united to Christ? How can I marry a second husband if my first husband resolutely refuses to die? There is only one way out. If HE will not die, I can die, and if I die the marriage relationship is dissolved. And that is exactly God’s way of deliverance from the Law. The most important point to note in this section of Romans 7 is the transition from verse 3 to verse 4. Verses 1 to 3 show that the husband should die, but in verse 4 we see that in fact it is the woman who dies. The Law does not pass away, but I pass away, and by death I am freed from the Law. [Footnote #15--Watchman Nee, THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE, pages 107-109 (Chapter 9).]

 

[John the Baptist]

I've often heard that we are not under the LAW anymore and hence, it is inferred that the Law is bad... often with shades of malice and discord.

I am asking the below questions with the presupposition that a conditional covenant between God and the Israelites was agreed upon after the exodus from Egypt. The intent of these laws were multifaceted and included statements such as, Leviticus 20:26 And you shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from other people, that you should be mine.

Was the Law given to Moses bad...
or
Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?
Conclusion
What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses? What was God trying to achieve through them and how does that apply to our lives today?

****
One law, pointed to Christ. Even past the rent curtain into His work of today in the Most Holy Place of heaven itself. (a copy, or road map type blueprint)
But don't get this mixed up with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead! It is the "EPISTLE" of Christ! 2 Corinthians 3:3. :wink:
Hebrews 13:20

Such as, why kill lambs today, or carnal ordinances? Then comes why kill or break the Eternal Law & then become a sinner right back under the law, all the while openly even, perhaps???
---John

 

[Jay T]

I've often heard that we are not under the LAW anymore and hence, it is inferred that the Law is bad... often with shades of malice and discord.

Always remember that satan is at ...WAR...with God's commandments, because they are what Righteousness is.....
# 1.) Psalms 119:172 "My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness".

# 2.) Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make WARwith the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

I am asking the below questions with the presupposition that a conditional covenant between God and the Israelites was agreed upon after the exodus from Egypt. The intent of these laws were multifaceted and included statements such as, Leviticus 20:26 And you shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have separated you from other people, that you should be mine.

20:20 ""And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.

Was the Law given to Moses bad...

pSALMS 19:7 "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple".

or
Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?

Remember satan's WAR...against God's commandments ?

Conclusion
What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses?

Which law are we refering to here ?
The ceremonial law...or, the 10 commandments ?

What was God trying to achieve through them and how does that apply to our lives today?

Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law".

 

[cyberjosh]

Can one keep the law without the Holy Spirit?

No. But it was the ultimate standard which Jesus fulfilled, and called us to follow in his footsteps by the power of the Holy Spirit. But since even we are not perfect we will still fall short of perfectly fulfilling the law this is why God gives us grace rather than putting us under the law, so that when we fail to fulfill the Divine standard that Jesus' atoning blood can cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

In other words the moral and spiritual standards of the law are good, and have not ceased under the new covenant, but we are no longer under the condemnation which we rightfully deserve for failing to do even one point of the law. But this is not an excuse to sin. That is why you see Paul write in Romans several times "Surely not!" or "God forbid!".

 

[Spirit Driven]

Hi Guys,

Look I have what I think is a truly God inspired article written on this very matter of the Law and its relationship to us...... check it out at the link below.....

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/jteachings/lawgood.htm

Grace and Peace to you.

 

[stovebolts]

"Spirit Driven" aka Razor

Let's start here...

Was the Law given to Moses bad...
or
Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?
Conclusion
A. What was the purpose of the Law given to Moses?

B. What was God trying to achieve through them and how does that apply to our lives today?


Grace and Peace to you

 

[stovebolts]

****
One law, pointed to Christ. Even past the rent curtain into His work of today in the Most Holy Place of heaven itself. (a copy, or road map type blueprint)
But don't get this mixed up with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead! It is the "EPISTLE" of Christ! 2 Corinthians 3:3. :wink:
Hebrews 13:20

Such as, why kill lambs today, or carnal ordinances? Then comes why kill or break the Eternal Law & then become a sinner right back under the law, all the while openly even, perhaps???
---John

Hi John!
I absolutely agree with you. However, I'd like to talk about the direct questions that I answered in the beginning of my post.

I get the idea that when people think of the "Law", they see it as a bad thing (kind of how Razor described it) when in reality, God gave them the Law to set themselves apart from the other nations. Israel was to be a light to the nations around them. They were called to be holy because YHWH was Holy.


JT
The 10 commandments and the laws that hang directly off of them. I'm not including the ordinances, though the ordinances held significance when properly administered.

 

[Spirit Driven]

I completely agree with the apostle Paul that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8).

The Law that God sent so that sinning might increase (Rom. 5:20), so that sins might be defined more clearly (Gal. 3:19), so that all men would be under a curse (Gal. 3:10), and so that the power of sin might work through it to kill you and me (Rom. 7:11)

Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (Gal. 3:3)?

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi Guys,

Look I have what I think is a truly God inspired article written on this very matter of the Law and its relationship to us...... check it out at the link below.....

http://www.gospelfortoday.org/jteachings/lawgood.htm

Grace and Peace to you.

*****
"God Inspired Article"?????

It looks just like the Revelation 17:5 Church pulpit to me? : Don't worry, we are not in the Broadway, we are not Sick & Lukewarm, and on & on it goes with everyday a new (2 Corinthian 4:2) twist, that I love you Lord, but not enough to surrender it all!

And this ALL means what? Well, you just take a peek at the worlds 'devil WORKLESS' ones?? (these guys must be on some kind of sleeping pill's? Matthew 25:5 or Ezekiel 37:1-6 ??) but we can't LOVE CHRIST ENOUGH to be anything less than 'SICKENING' LUKEWARM WORKLESS SCUM OF THE EARTH????? And 'SPEWED OUT'?? Why not???

Naw, you can have these Jeremiah 17:5 piece here & piece there ones??
Probably a sun keeper to boot? (1 John 2:4) With sure Lord, I know you! And I LOVE YOU, but Your Blessed Set Aside & Sanctified 7th Day Sabbath is 'gospelfortoday'?? garbage!! See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 & Malachi 3:6 for an Changing their Godhead mind? :roll: and with Hebrews 13:8's Jesus Christ the SAME YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOR EVER."
Then HIS WARNING in the next verse!! of 'STRANGE DOCTRINES'! And the Arm of Flesh? you can go and lean on the stuff if you want, but not me friend. And the nothing New from the Godhead? It ALL started in heaven's rebellion with Lucifer & then is seen from Genesis on, with Cains HOT 'WORKING' DESIRE for his new master the 'serpent!'!

---John

 

[Spirit Driven]

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all (James 2:10)

Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16)

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33)

Seems pretty straight forward to me....scripture just told us that there is no way you can justify yourself by the works of the Law...... only by faith in Christ Jesus will God Justify you.

So I guess you gotta choose weather you think you can live up to ALL the righteouse requirements of the Law..... even though scripture has just told us there is no way that you can..... or choose to be believing in Jesus Christ alone, and be found to be a righteouse person because of that Alone

To me that is the really Good News of the Gospel.

 

[John the Baptist]

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all (James 2:10)

Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16)

No one (me at least) here is not agreeing with this. And James 2 states that this will be our Standard in Judgement. Compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. Christ alone saves! Notice that this New to us, Born Again LOVE is not to become Lukewarm & Sickening to Christ, or we will be SPEWED OUT! Now, where is this Grace??? So: we are to MATURE in ALL OBEDIENCE as the Holy Spirit Lead's us! Romans 8:14 And He leads us 'knowingly & presumptously' (see Psalm 19:13 K.J.) to break any one of the James 2:8-12 Eternal Covenant of the Godhead??? And this is called Knowing Them, and Loving them??? 1 John 2:4

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33)

In Hebrew 13:20 we see how that all were to be saved, they were saved in only one way! These ALL DIED IN THE FAITH! Remember that this included the Genesis 3:15 Promise! Acts 4:12 (and Cains substitute 'OFFERING' was rejected) Such as todays 7th Day Sabbath of the Godhead, for the devil's 1st day Daniel 7:25 REPLACEMENT! : ---John

Seems pretty straight forward to me....

 

[Jay T]

I completely agree with the apostle Paul that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully (1 Tim. 1:8).

The Law that God sent so that sinning might increase (Rom. 5:20), so that sins might be defined more clearly (Gal. 3:19), so that all men would be under a curse (Gal. 3:10), and so that the power of sin might work through it to kill you and me (Rom. 7:11)

Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh (Gal. 3:3)?

This is a questio the whole Christian world shouyld pay attention to.......Jesus Christ freed us from sinful habits, yet the modern Christian world falls right into sinful habits, like disobeying God's commandments ?!?

 

[cyberjosh]

Was the way the law was interpreted and applied bad?

I must ask on this rather broad question: As applied by whom? There is a difference between how King Josiah and Hezekiah rightfully applied the law and how the Pharisees, who mixed in their "tradition of the elders" and "neglected the wieghtier matters of the law", did.