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Understanding Mary - Mother of God

Mungo

Member
Mary, Mother of God
"The Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos) since according to the flesh she brought forth the Word of God made flesh" (Council of Ephesus, 431 AD)

What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para 487)

Let us therefore start with Jesus. The early centuries of Christianity were marked by controversies over the nature of Jesus Christ. Was he God? Was he man? Was he born human and became God?
The definition of Mary as Theotokos (literally “God bearer”) at the Council of Ephesus in 431 was made in response to a fifth century heresy called Nestorianism which said that Mary did not carry God but only carried Christ’s human nature in her womb.

Nestorians claimed that Mary did not give birth to a unified person but tried to separate Jesus’ human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate persons, one human and one divine in a loose affiliation.

But a woman carries a person in her womb, not just a human nature. Mary carried, and gave birth to, the person of Jesus Christ, and that person was God, the second person of the Trinity.

This does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”

The definition of Ephesus was not to glorify Mary but to affirm that Jesus’ two natures – divine and human were united in one divine person.

The logic is:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of Jesus
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

Scripture Summary
Jesus is God

Jesus Christ is the Word, the second person of the Trinity.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1)

Mary is the mother of Jesus
He assumed human nature (came in the flesh)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

Where did the Word become flesh? In the womb of Mary
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” (Lk 1:31).
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).

Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)

Therefore Mary is the mother of God
In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.
 
Early Christian witness
The early Church Fathers recognised Mary as the Mother of God. Here are a few quotes from them:

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Iranaeus - Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Hippolytus - Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Gregory the Wonderworker Four Homilies 1; 262 AD).

"(Those engaged in the public transport service) came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and Ever-Virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (Peter of Alexandria The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria; 305 AD).

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Methodius Oration on Simeon and Anna 7; 305 AD).

"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Alexander of Alexandria Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12; 324 AD).

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 10:19; 350 AD).

"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Ephraim the Syrian Songs of Praise 1:20; 351 AD).

"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (Athanasius The Incarnation of the Word of God 8; 365 AD).

"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (Epiphanius of Salamis The Man Well-Anchored 75; 374 AD).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?"
(Ambrose of Milan The Virgins 2:2[7]; 377 AD).

This Virgin became a Mother while preserving her virginity;
And though still a Virgin she carried a Child in her womb;
And the handmaid and work of His Wisdom
became the Mother of God

(St Ephraim, Songs of Praise, 1, 20; c. 381 AD)

"If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Gregory of Nazianz Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101; 382 AD).
 
I personally do not support that Mary was the mother of God. God always existed and has no mother. I believe she was the mother of the incarnate - Jesus. Scripture teaches us that Jesus, "being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men."
Philippians 2:6-7 NKJV

One thing that I notice is the early church fathers you speak of were born many generations after the Apostles died. Do you have any apostolic sources to show that the apostles themselves also believed this?
 
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).

Hopefully you see here that God sent His Son.

He was already God’s Son, sent by the Father to become flesh, and therefore He was born of a woman.


Plainly Mary gave birth to flesh and blood; the Man Christ Jesus.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


God is Spirit. Mary gave birth to flesh.


Jesus became flesh, and was made a little lower than the angels.


But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9


Mary gave birth to that which was made a little lower than the angels; the Man Christ Jesus.


For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5



Is God a little lower than angels?




JLB
 
One thing that I notice is the early church fathers you speak of were born many generations after the Apostles died. Do you have any apostolic sources to show that the apostles themselves also believed this?
Are you suggesting that the Apostles did not believe that Yeshua was wholly man and wholly God..two natures and one divine Person? The CC teaches this; is she wrong to do so?
 
Are you suggesting that the Apostles did not believe that Yeshua was wholly man and wholly God..two natures and one divine Person? The CC teaches this; is she wrong to do so?

Indeed. And it not just Catholics who honour Mary as the mother of God. So also to Orthodox and (I think) Anglicans/Episcopalians.
 
I personally do not support that Mary was the mother of God. God always existed and has no mother. I believe she was the mother of the incarnate - Jesus. Scripture teaches us that Jesus, "being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men."
Philippians 2:6-7 NKJV

One thing that I notice is the early church fathers you speak of were born many generations after the Apostles died. Do you have any apostolic sources to show that the apostles themselves also believed this?

As I pointed out in the OP this does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”. Do you not accept that Jesus is God?

I also pointed out in the OP
In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.
To expand that:
Lk 1
9 according to the custom of the priesthood, it fell to him by lot to enter the temple of the Lord [kuriou] and burn incense.
11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord [kuriou] standing on the right side of the altar of incense
16 And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord [kuriou] their God,
17 ….to make ready for the Lord [kurio] a people prepared.
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one,, the Lord [kurios] is with you!
38 “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord [kurio]; let it be to me according to your word.”

In all these kurios clearly means God so when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit, asks "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord [kuriou] should come to me? " the phrase mother of my Lord clearly means the mother of my God
 
Indeed. And it not just Catholics who honour Mary as the mother of God. So also to Orthodox and (I think) Anglicans/Episcopalians.
But, Christianity is not a popularity contest. When we go that route, we begin to get away from just discussing our differences and working toward Christian unity.
 
As I pointed out in the OP this does not mean Mary is older than God, or that she is the source of her Son’s divinity. She is the Mother of God in that she carried in her womb, and gave birth to, a divine person – Jesus Christ, God “in the flesh”. Do you not accept that Jesus is God?

I also pointed out in the OP

To expand that:
Lk 1
9 according to the custom of the priesthood, it fell to him by lot to enter the temple of the Lord [kuriou] and burn incense.
11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord [kuriou] standing on the right side of the altar of incense
16 And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord [kuriou] their God,
17 ….to make ready for the Lord [kurio] a people prepared.
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one,, the Lord [kurios] is with you!
38 “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord [kurio]; let it be to me according to your word.”

In all these kurios clearly means God so when Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit, asks "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord [kuriou] should come to me? " the phrase mother of my Lord clearly means the mother of my God
I hear what you're saying. This is where I resolve that I don't have all the answers, why I am discussing this, and to accepting the mystery of Jesus having two distinct natures, one being fully God and one being fully man. Nothing is impossible with God.
 
Very good.

So, in your opinion, when did this union of his two natures take place?
That's really immaterial to the point of this discussion. I'm trying to understand how Mary can be the mother of God when God always existed. Did God have a mother? To answer yes indicates that God came from or in human terms was born but since God is eternal, this is not logical.
 
That's really immaterial to the point of this discussion. I'm trying to understand how Mary can be the mother of God when God always existed. Did God have a mother? To answer yes indicates that God came from or in human terms was born but since God is eternal, this is not logical.
Please answer my question:

In your opinion, when did this union of Yeshua's two natures (human and divine) take place. Did it occur at his conception; or after his birth?

I am simply asking for your opinion. Why would this be difficult to give?
 
I'm trying to understand how Mary can be the mother of God when God always existed.

And therein lies the dilema of their theory.

Mary certainly wasn't the mother of God, nor was she born without sin.

God is Spirit.

God is eternal.

Mary isnt.




JLB
 
Please answer my question:

In your opinion, when did this union of Yeshua's two natures (human and divine) take place. Did it occur at his conception; or after his birth?

I am simply asking for your opinion. Why would this be difficult to give?
First, you seem to be trying to start a debate and I have no interest in turning this into a debate. Second, my opinion doesn't matter. What matters is truth and that is what we should be seeking.

All I will offer is this...

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,
John 1:14 ESV

And this...

Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Philippians 2:5-8 ESV

I also found this...

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:17 NKJV
 
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HI JLB,
I did ask you on another thread - but you didn't answer:

Jesus Christ is the Lord God.


Is it your belief that Jesus Christ did not become flesh and blood?




JLB
 
Then if Jesus is God, and Mary is the mother of Jesus, why do you not accept that Mary is the mother of God?
The way I understand it, Jesus was fully man and is fully God. Mary wasn't the mother of God Himself but she was the mother of the man, Jesus.

I wonder though, are we just arguing semantics?
 
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