Unrepentant Adulterers

[glorydaz]

So are you saying that once someone is saved they are always saved??? that it is impossible to fall??

i believe there is a big difference from sinning and living a life of sin....

Possible to stumble, but not possible to fall back into death once we are born again. I'm probably not supposed to get into a debate on eternal security, but, yes, I do believe the Lord is able to keep and preserve those who have been saved. A believer in Christ is one who has been called, beloved, kept, and blessed by God. As Jude says, "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever." There are too many promises to believe otherwise.

And what, exactly, constitutes a "life of sin"?

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Possible to stumble, but not possible to fall back into death once we are born again. I'm probably not supposed to get into a debate on eternal security, but, yes, I do believe the Lord is able to keep and preserve those who have been saved. A believer in Christ is one who has been called, beloved, kept, and blessed by God. As Jude says, "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever." There are too many promises to believe otherwise.

And what, exactly, constitutes a "life of sin"?

so then what is the point of going to church or even living a spiritual life??? I won't get into verse after verse after verse, but every promise in the bible is hinging upon following the commands of God, i mean have you even read the OT at all, All we see is examples of people like saul, that the lord WAS WITH, but then WAS NO LONGER WITH. how can God no longer be with someone who is saved? as far as a life of sin goes, pretty easy, for example the individual in 1 cor 5, as long as he continued to be with his fathers life he was not part of the church (hence the reason the church was told to expel him out). If someone decides they no longer believe in God, etc.... etc... Yes i firmly believe that if i leave my wife and marry some other chick and refuse to go back to my wife i would be living a life of sin, if not the what Jesus said about marriage is worthless, if you can do whatever you want anyways then his words have no meaning.....

 

[Alabaster]

so then what is the point of going to church or even living a spiritual life??? I won't get into verse after verse after verse, but every promise in the bible is hinging upon following the commands of God, i mean have you even read the OT at all, All we see is examples of people like saul, that the lord WAS WITH, but then WAS NO LONGER WITH. how can God no longer be with someone who is saved? as far as a life of sin goes, pretty easy, for example the individual in 1 cor 5, as long as he continued to be with his fathers life he was not part of the church (hence the reason the church was told to expel him out). If someone decides they no longer believe in God, etc.... etc... Yes i firmly believe that if i leave my wife and marry some other chick and refuse to go back to my wife i would be living a life of sin, if not the what Jesus said about marriage is worthless, if you can do whatever you want anyways then his words have no meaning.....

The important part of all this is that when a person truly receives Christ, he experiences a changed heart, a renewed way of thinking. He becomes a new creature. His eyes are opened to truth and sensitive to God and what sin is.

He wants to obey God, and wants to please Him.

As far as going to church and DOING things, he desires these things, even though there is still the pull of flesh against them. We must master our flesh. Those who do not experience that battle, at least in the beginning (most do for their entire lives to some degree), need to realize that maybe they have not experienced the renewal of salvation, but rather an wakening to Him---the next step is to renounce sin and kneel at the cross, receiving Jesus.

Once His, we are free to walk in righteousness---we do not have to sin! But we do not have to become legalistic in our living, either. It isn't about what we do or don't do, but in the depth of relationship we have with the living Jesus!

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

The important part of all this is that when a person truly receives Christ, he experiences a changed heart, a renewed way of thinking. He becomes a new creature. His eyes are opened to truth and sensitive to God and what sin is.

He wants to obey God, and wants to please Him.

As far as going to church and DOING things, he desires these things, even though there is still the pull of flesh against them. We must master our flesh. Those who do not experience that battle, at least in the beginning (most do for their entire lives to some degree), need to realize that maybe they have not experienced the renewal of salvation, but rather an wakening to Him---the next step is to renounce sin and kneel at the cross, receiving Jesus.

Once His, we are free to walk in righteousness---we do not have to sin! But we do not have to become legalistic in our living, either. It isn't about what we do or don't do, but in the depth of relationship we have with the living Jesus!

Being legalistic is far from what i am saying... i am preaching free will, Jesus never forced himself on anyone and even Judas whom followed Jesus and saw Jesus do things firsthand that no one hear will ever see, allowed Satan to enter his heart...... I don't think the depth of our relationship is by being legalistic i am saying if someone wants to walk away from Jesus they CAN. God does not and will not force himself on anyone. If you can change you mind one way you can change the other... why do you think the bible says "be careful, lest ye fall", how can you fall if it is impossible..... the only thing i am saying is we have a free will, nothing more, nothing less....

 

[Alabaster]

I have a hard time believing that when someone's spirit has come alive and the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in a human spirit, and a person has had the joy of knowing the living God, he cannot just up and evict Him...even though he has a mind to do so, due to the enemy's interference.

God has the power to keep us. He uses it.

John 10:27-29 NLT
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

I have a hard time believing that when someone's spirit has come alive and the Holy Spirit has taken up residence in a human spirit, and a person has had the joy of knowing the living God, he cannot just up and evict Him...even though he has a mind to do so, due to the enemy's interference.

God has the power to keep us. He uses it.

John 10:27-29 NLT
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand.

How did it happen to Judas, why warning about falling away, you are just pulling scripture up and not even understanding basic theology.... You are right no one can snatch them away from them... think about what that means, if i a child as long as you stay inside the house no one can snatch you away from me and then she runs away and gets taken can she turn to me and say you lied???? what do you think the parable of the prodigal son is about.. the father LET HIM LEAVE and of course he was watching every day, but he NEVER went into the world to get him. What about the parable of the virgins, i mean they were waiting for Jesus, but they LEFT and then when Jesus came he said "I do not know you". Just basic logic will tell you that if you could have 1,000 dollars a day without doing anything, then you aren't going to do anything, if can live whatever life you want and still be saved, why not??
Every example i give you ignore and just post some verse that doesn't even apply to what you are trying to say... the bible is very much like statistics, you can find a statistic to support about anything.... i can make arguments for lots of things that are poor theology, by ignoring the rest of the bible.... What about all the examples that you ignore... what about the whole OT, i mean we have example after example of GOD'S PEOPLE that he was with and they DECIDED TO LEAVE HIM and they got destroyed by God....

 

[Alabaster]

How did it happen to Judas, why warning about falling away, you are just pulling scripture up and not even understanding basic theology....

Excuse me...I understand more than basic theology, thanks.

If the Lord has to say, "I never knew you", then that means He never knew you. The Good Shepherd never abandons the sheep. People can leave what they have come to believe, but they never knew Him to begin with. You can make all the noise you want about that, but that is the basic truth. Accept it or not.

 

[glorydaz]

so then what is the point of going to church or even living a spiritual life??? I won't get into verse after verse after verse, but every promise in the bible is hinging upon following the commands of God, i mean have you even read the OT at all, All we see is examples of people like saul, that the lord WAS WITH, but then WAS NO LONGER WITH. how can God no longer be with someone who is saved? as far as a life of sin goes, pretty easy, for example the individual in 1 cor 5, as long as he continued to be with his fathers life he was not part of the church (hence the reason the church was told to expel him out). If someone decides they no longer believe in God, etc.... etc... Yes i firmly believe that if i leave my wife and marry some other chick and refuse to go back to my wife i would be living a life of sin, if not the what Jesus said about marriage is worthless, if you can do whatever you want anyways then his words have no meaning.....

Let me assure you...I have read the OT....many times. I've also been in this discussion many times, and all those verses you're talking about do not take away the promises to the believer. This isn't any different than trying to convince someone that we will never be sinless (expect positionally in Christ) while in this body of flesh, or the "whole world", or "all men" means just that to a Calvanist, or eternal life is forever. And...we could go around about Saul, but sometimes the effort isn't worth it. Unless the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind to a particular truth, no amount of talk will do it.

Once we realize that anything that is not faith is sin, we aren't so quick to judge the sins we see in others. 1 Cor. 5 is a good example of the church expelling someone in order that they be brought back into fellowship. That's simply one of the tools the Lord uses to chasten the sons of God. When we are in Christ, we will not be given rest until we return to fellowship with Him. Not because of us, but because the Lord is the author and the finisher of our faith. What the Lord undertakes, He will bring to completion.

 

[glorydaz]

How did it happen to Judas, why warning about falling away, you are just pulling scripture up and not even understanding basic theology.... You are right no one can snatch them away from them... think about what that means, if i a child as long as you stay inside the house no one can snatch you away from me and then she runs away and gets taken can she turn to me and say you lied???? what do you think the parable of the prodigal son is about.. the father LET HIM LEAVE and of course he was watching every day, but he NEVER went into the world to get him. What about the parable of the virgins, i mean they were waiting for Jesus, but they LEFT and then when Jesus came he said "I do not know you". Just basic logic will tell you that if you could have 1,000 dollars a day without doing anything, then you aren't going to do anything, if can live whatever life you want and still be saved, why not??
Every example i give you ignore and just post some verse that doesn't even apply to what you are trying to say... the bible is very much like statistics, you can find a statistic to support about anything.... i can make arguments for lots of things that are poor theology, by ignoring the rest of the bible.... What about all the examples that you ignore... what about the whole OT, i mean we have example after example of GOD'S PEOPLE that he was with and they DECIDED TO LEAVE HIM and they got destroyed by God....

I'm sorry, but you sound angry. The examples you gave aren't really good ones. The child in the house, for example. God is not a human parent, nothing is impossible with Him. Basic logic can never stand up to the power of God, and if you'd care to discuss each example you gave, one at a time, I'm confident you would hear scriptural answers that would satisfy you if you allowed yourself to be open to instruction from the Word.

Please note...the prodigal son did return.

 

[glorydaz]

Excuse me...I understand more than basic theology, thanks.

If the Lord has to say, "I never knew you", then that means He never knew you. The Good Shepherd never abandons the sheep. People can leave what they have come to believe, but they never knew Him to begin with. You can make all the noise you want about that, but that is the basic truth. Accept it or not.

LOL. You're right, Alabaster, which is why we're told to search our hearts to see whether we are truly saved or not.

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

I'm sorry, but you sound angry. The examples you gave aren't really good ones. The child in the house, for example. God is not a human parent, nothing is impossible with Him. Basic logic can never stand up to the power of God, and if you'd care to discuss each example you gave, one at a time, I'm confident you would hear scriptural answers that would satisfy you if you allowed yourself to be open to instruction from the Word.

Please note...the prodigal son did return.

i am not angry at all, as far as discussing each example we can if you want to, but i don't feel like we will get very far, if basic logic is not going to be part of the discussion... honestly it is weird to me to hear you say things like Returning (which means you can leave) and they wanted him to COME BACK to the congregation, yet then turn around and say people cannot be lost, it is going against the very 1st law of logic (the law of non contradiction). So honestly any discussion where someone starts out by saying Logic is no match for God, is like playing a game with no rules... as far as being open to instruction, i think you are assuming a little too much. I have listened to HOURS AND HOURS of RC Sproul who is about as hardcore as it gets regrading Calvinism, so trust me i have heard just about every argument from someone who is the leading voice for Calvinism. so i don't think i would qualify as not being open when i have over 100 podcasts from the leading voice on the subject......

 

[benjamin-benjamin]

Excuse me...I understand more than basic theology, thanks.

If the Lord has to say, "I never knew you", then that means He never knew you. The Good Shepherd never abandons the sheep. People can leave what they have come to believe, but they never knew Him to begin with. You can make all the noise you want about that, but that is the basic truth. Accept it or not.

as you continue to ignore everything i say and just pull random scriptures... let me break it down one more time....
Satan/Demons/ANYTHING cannot TAKE US FROM GOD. the scriptures are clear on that, i don't disagree at all. WE HAVE FREE WILL. If we did not then living is pointless, what is the point of playing a game where the winner is already decided, there is no point, so if everything is already decided, then everything we do is pointless, that is basic logic, theology, call it what you want... God will always be there for his children as long as we want him to, but if we decide (you know that whole free will thing) to leave he will let us go..

 

[Alabaster]

as you continue to ignore everything i say and just pull random scriptures... let me break it down one more time....
Satan/Demons/ANYTHING cannot TAKE US FROM GOD. the scriptures are clear on that, i don't disagree at all. WE HAVE FREE WILL. If we did not then living is pointless, what is the point of playing a game where the winner is already decided, there is no point, so if everything is already decided, then everything we do is pointless, that is basic logic, theology, call it what you want... God will always be there for his children as long as we want him to, but if we decide (you know that whole free will thing) to leave he will let us go..

Pullease....nothing I post from the scriptures is ever random.

 

[Free]

Back on topic, please.

 

[glorydaz]

... honestly it is weird to me to hear you say things like Returning (which means you can leave) and they wanted him to COME BACK to the congregation, yet then turn around and say people cannot be lost, it is going against the very 1st law of logic (the law of non contradiction). ...

The point, of course, is that man is not faithful, but the Lord is. Yes, believers stray, but the Good Shepherd will always bring him back. Being lost does not mean one loses his salvation since a believer has already entered into eternal life when he is saved. It is not a contradiction at all to say one can get lost before he finds his way home...or is rescued, for "lost" is not dead.

How much greater is the Lord's love for His own that He wouldn't lift us out of any pit wherein we may fall?

And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?

It's imperative that believers stand on the promises rather than read loss of salvation into verses that do NOT even suggest salvation as an issue. We can fall (stumble) or fall (back), but we can never fall out of salvation once we've been saved. It is impossible.

 

[glorydaz]

as you continue to ignore everything i say and just pull random scriptures... let me break it down one more time....
Satan/Demons/ANYTHING cannot TAKE US FROM GOD. the scriptures are clear on that, i don't disagree at all. WE HAVE FREE WILL. If we did not then living is pointless, what is the point of playing a game where the winner is already decided, there is no point, so if everything is already decided, then everything we do is pointless, that is basic logic, theology, call it what you want... God will always be there for his children as long as we want him to, but if we decide (you know that whole free will thing) to leave he will let us go..

In order to buy that, one would not only have to disregard the promises and guarantees of God, but put words in His mouth.

Here you have to add "but us" after "any man".

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Here you have to add "but us" after "any creature".

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It helps to realize that salvation is a union with God that cannot be broken, while fellowship can be. Which is why believers will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, while unbelievers stand before the Great White Throne. Our salvation is Christ's work...our salvation depends on Him. Man's work will be judged by what sort it is. Man will be rewarded or have his work burned up...."but he himself shall be saved;"

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Free]

Back on topic. I will not repeat this again.

Thanks.

 

[glorydaz]

Back on topic. I will not repeat this again.

Thanks.

I'm sorry, Free. I thought I was on topic.