Was Israel enslaved in Egypt due to their sin and does Passover represent forgiveness of sin?

[stovebolts]

Hi Stove. That’s true. My main point here concerns the backdrop to the Passover rather than the word ‘sacrifice’. The Passover represents (among other things) God’s judgment of Egypt’s gods (Exod. 12.12, 18.10-11, Num. 33.4), with whom Israel has wrongfully connected herself. God is therefore angry with his people, and rightly so (Josh. 24.14, Ezek. 20.8, 20.34-36). He will pour out his judgment and strike down each firstborn in Egypt. And his wrath will be outpoured on Israel’s households too. But, in Israel’s case, God has provided a way of escape--in particular, a means of substitution. A lamb can be killed in place of a firstborn. From God’s divine perspective, then, the Passover lamb serves as a substitute. The death of each firstborn will (rightly) afflict the Israelites’ households unless a lamb is slaughtered and its blood is applied to each house’s doorframe. To put the point another way, either a lamb must die or the firstborn must die. The point is underscored in Exod. 13, where, as an illustration and memorial of the Passover’s events, Moses tells the Israelites, “[From now on], you must redeem each firstborn of a donkey by means of [alt. ‘at the cost of’] a lamb, and, if you do not redeem [it], you must break its neck; and [so] each firstborn man among your sons you must redeem”. Contra the claims of Wright, then, the events of the Passover revolve around the notion of penal substitution.

Hi James
I view Passover slightly different. It's not about Gods wrath, but of his deliverance.
GOD does not rejoice in the death of the wicked, which is why they are led to the bitter waters of Mara after Miriams song. What occurred at the Red Sea was bitter sweet.
Passover is about redemption from exile... and calling a people for himself who were oppressed and mistreated to remember their exile so they could show Gods mercy and grace to the world. Often, we gain wisdom from our trials, but only if we remember from where we have come and the great and mighty things the Lord has done for us.
Exodus starts with the names of those who entered Egypt, which represents exile for they had left the promised land. Even Joseph knew their time in Egypt was temporary. 430 years later, the identity of Israel was still in tact and those names remained... a remnant one might say.
But God is good on his promise to Abraham, and so God redeems all who are his who where called out to be a light, both Egyptian, Gentile and Hebrew under the name Israel.
And so it was that God drew them near through the blood of the lamb and they were removed from exile and journeyed to the promised land.

 

[James Bejon]

Hi Stove. To say Passover is ‘not about God’s wrath, but...deliverance’ is, I think, to posit a false dichotomy. Does Scripture describe the Passover as a judgment on Egypt and her gods? Yes. Does Scripture say Israel became tangled up with Egypt and her gods? Yes. Does Scripture say God was angry with Israel as a result? Yes. Is the Passover therefore about God’s wrath? Yes of course. Scripture says so. Is the Passover *also* about God’s deliverance and the advancement of God’s redemptive purposes? Yes of course. But that doesn’t deny the connection between the Passover and God’s wrath; on the contrary, it presupposes and underlines it. It’s a both-and situation rather than an either-or. This, I believe, is the problem with Wright’s book. It’s one long rehearsal of arguments of the form: (1) X is about A, (2) Therefore, X is about A and not B, (3) Therefore, X is not about B.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stove. To say Passover is ‘not about God’s wrath, but...deliverance’ is, I think, to posit a false dichotomy. Does Scripture describe the Passover as a judgment on Egypt and her gods? Yes. Does Scripture say Israel became tangled up with Egypt and her gods? Yes. Does Scripture say God was angry with Israel as a result? Yes. Is the Passover therefore about God’s wrath? Yes of course. Scripture says so. Is the Passover *also* about God’s deliverance and the advancement of God’s redemptive purposes? Yes of course. But that doesn’t deny the connection between the Passover and God’s wrath; on the contrary, it presupposes and underlines it. It’s a both-and situation rather than an either-or. This, I believe, is the problem with Wright’s book. It’s one long rehearsal of arguments of the form: (1) X is about A, (2) Therefore, X is about A and not B, (3) Therefore, X is not about B.

Let me frame it this way, and see if you agree.
The focal of Passover is redemptive in nature, not wrathfull in nature.
While Gods wrath is shown in Passover, it is against all the gods of Egypt. Again, the nature is redemptive, not condemning.

 

[James Bejon]

I think ‘redemptive not wrathful’ is just a paraphrase of the same false dichotomy to be honest. Let’s try a slightly different tack. Suppose there’s an Israelite in Egypt on the night of the Passover who doesn’t sacrifice a lamb. What happens to his household? Is his firstborn son slain by the destroyer or not?

 

[ezra]

Dear Ezra. True, Israel isn’t specifically said to have been enslaved in Egypt due to her sin. But, either way, God is said to be angry with Israel at the time of the Passover.

why was he angry with them at this time?

 

[chessman]

This, I believe, is the problem with Wright’s book. It’s one long rehearsal of arguments of the form: (1) X is about A, (2) Therefore, X is about A and not B, (3) Therefore, X is not about B.

I’m looking forward to William Lane Craig’s work on the Atonement provided by Christ. I’ve heard him say it’s been his most challenging work study. Not a few (including myself) Christ lovers have been challenged grasping all the facets of the Atonement. I read your critique of NTW’s book. Though I’ve not read that particular book, I have read others of his. I think I’ll skip it.

 

[James Bejon]

why was he angry with them at this time?

Idolatry. As I said earlier,

The Passover represents (among other things) God’s judgment of Egypt’s gods (Exod. 12.12, 18.10-11, Num. 33.4), with whom Israel has wrongfully connected herself. God is therefore angry with his people, and rightly so (Josh. 24.14, Ezek. 20.8, 20.34-36). He will pour out his judgment and strike down each firstborn in Egypt. And [unless a substitute is found] his wrath will be outpoured on Israel’s households too.

 

[James Bejon]

I’m looking forward to William Lane Craig’s work on the Atonement provided by Christ. I’ve heard him say it’s been his most challenging work study. Not a few (including myself) Christ lovers have been challenged grasping all the facets of the Atonement. I read your critique of NTW’s book. Though I’ve not read that particular book, I have read others of his. I think I’ll skip it.

A wise move in my opinion! Yes, I've been looking forward to Craig's book for quite a while now.

 

[stovebolts]

I think ‘redemptive not wrathful’ is just a paraphrase of the same false dichotomy to be honest. Let’s try a slightly different tack. Suppose there’s an Israelite in Egypt on the night of the Passover who doesn’t sacrifice a lamb. What happens to his household? Is his firstborn son slain by the destroyer or not?

Well, now were just going to start being foolish aren't we. We both know that every household that does not have the blood of the lamb over it's doorposts will have its first born slain.
I see you like to preach a wrathfull God. That is fine with me. We will simply disagree on matters of the very nature of God, which is love.
This is not to deny Gods wrath, for which we ourselves store up for ourselves according to scripture. It is simply to say, that Gods very nature is love, and Gods desire is that all be saved. Again, this is not to deny Gods wrath, otherwise it would not be written that God does not rejoice over the destruction of the wicked.
L
If you have a hard time grasping this dichotomy,I don't know how you can accept that if one is to live, he must die. Furthermore, Christ himself died, yet he is alive. How then can life come through death?

 

[stovebolts]

Dear Ezra. True, Israel isn’t specifically said to have been enslaved in Egypt due to her sin. But, either way, God is said to be angry with Israel at the time of the Passover.

Nothing you have written agrees with scripture.
Fact is, Israel had the best grazing in the land and were not oppressed until the time of Moses. They were put in Egypt just as God told Abraham. You can look at my earlier post to see what I've written on the matter.
As far as Passover, God was not directing his wrath on Israel. He was directing it at the Gods of Egypt. Each plague targeted a different Egyptian God. The final plague, Passover, was directed at PHAROAH, who claimed to be the giver and taker of life. He claimed to be God incarnate. God told Moses back in chapter 4 that Israel was Gods first son, and that he would take pharaohs first born...
God does not get angry with Israel until the incident of the Golden calf, and this is the beginning of Yom Kippur, which shows Gods willingness toward Israel.

 

[James Bejon]

Hi Stove. I’m not 100% sure what we’re disagreeing with at this point. You say you don’t “deny God’s wrath”. Good. Nor do I. Further, you agree that God would slay the firstborn of every Israelite household unless there is blood on its door-posts. Fine. Wouldn’t that be an example of the outpouring of God’s wrath though? If so, what do you think God was angry about? And, if not, why would God slay the firstborn?

Elsewhere you say: “God does not get angry with Israel until the incident of the Golden calf”. But I cited Ezek. 20 in an earlier post. Here are a few verses of it in full:

“I said to them, ‘Cast away, each of you, the detestable things of his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt; I am the LORD your God’. But they rebelled against Me and were not willing to listen to Me; they did not cast away the detestable things of their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I resolved to pour out My wrath on them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt. But I acted for the sake of My name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations among whom they lived, in whose sight I made Myself known to them by bringing them out of the land of Egypt. So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness”.

This strikes me as very clear.

James.

 

[ezra]

Idolatry. As I said earlier,

not seeing it all though a person can not live in the slime pit w/o it affecting you . but at this time wrath on the children of Israel .disagree they was in the Land of Goshen none of the plagues affected them ..the Passover is deliverance for the children of Israel just like Christ is our Passover , once they got out in the wilderness the old had to die out certainly at the red sea when there seemed no escape God made a way. but up till that point they panicked said we should have stayed. the spirit of fear came on them

 

[WIP]

Friendly reminder: This is the Theology forum where the rules require that we present the Scripture that supports our views.

 

[ezra]

not seeing it all though a person can not live in the slime pit w/o it affecting you . but at this time wrath on the children of Israel .disagree they was in the Land of Goshen none of the plagues affected them ..the Passover is deliverance for the children of Israel just like Christ is our Passover , once they got out in the wilderness the old had to die out certainly at the red sea when there seemed no escape God made a way. but up till that point they panicked said we should have stayed. the spirit of fear came on them

you want scripture https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+12&version=KJV full chapter

 

[Papa Zoom]

you want scripture https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+12&version=KJV full chapter

He means to go along with posted arguments. ;) Or are you pulling our leg?

 

[ezra]

He means to go along with posted arguments. ;) Or are you pulling our leg?

nope i gave a full chapter to read. to say the Passover for Israel out of Egypt was God wrath does not line up with scripture

 

[Jim Parker]

Was Israel enslaved in Egypt due to their sin and does Passover represent forgiveness of sin? [/QUOTE]
Israel (the 70 or 75 members of the family of Jacob) went down into Israel because there was a famine and Joseph, the viceroy of Egypt, had made provisions for the famine so that Egypt would have grain.
As viceroy, he sold the grain to the Egyptians and to his family who had come from Canaan into Egypt because there was grain.

Gen 41:54 and the seven years of famine began to come, as Joseph had said. The famine was in all lands, but in all the land of Egypt there was bread.

Gen 41:56 The famine was over all the face of the earth, and Joseph opened all the storehouses and sold to the Egyptians. And the famine became severe in the land of Egypt.

Gen 41:57 So all countries came to Joseph in Egypt to buy grain,because the famine was severe in all lands.

Gen 42:5 And the sons of Israel went to buy grain among those who journeyed, for the famine was in the land of Canaan.

When the people ran out of money, they traded their cattle. When they ran out of cattle they sold themselves into slavery.

Gen 47:15 So when the money failed in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan, all the Egyptians came to Joseph and said, “Give us bread, for why should we die in your presence? For the money has failed.”
16 Then Joseph said, “Give your livestock, and I will give you bread for your livestock, if the money is gone.”
17 So they brought their livestock to Joseph, and Joseph gave them bread in exchange for the horses, the flocks, the cattle of the herds, and for the donkeys. Thus he fed them with bread in exchange for all their livestock that year.
18 When that year had ended, they came to him the next year and said to him, “We will not hide from my lord that our money is gone; my lord also has our herds of livestock. There is nothing left in the sight of my lord but our bodies and our lands.
19 “Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants of Pharaoh; give us seed, that we may live and not die, that the land may not be desolate.”

When Israel (Jacob) and his family first went to Egypt, the land was ruled by a pharaoh who was not Egyptian. He was the leader of the Hyksos people who were herdsmen who had come into Egypt seeking land and were allowed to stay. They became powerful and rose up against the Egyptians, drove they out and set up their king as Pharaoh.

Some time later, the Egyptians returned, deposed the Hyksos pharaoh and regained rule of Egypt.

By this time, the Israelites had become a much larger group and they seemed very much like the Hyksos people who had rebelled a few hundred years earlier so the Egyptian pharaoh tried to keep the Israelites oppressed by means of hard labor. This was the time of the Exodus.

Exo 1:7 But the children of Israel were fruitful and increased abundantly, multiplied and grew exceedingly mighty; and the land was filled with them. 8 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. 9 And he said to his people, “Look, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we; 10 “come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and it happen, in the event of war, that they also join our enemies and fight against us, and so go up out of the land.”

The Passover was the protection of God's chosen people when He sent the "death angel" to Egypt to kill the firstborn of every family and every beast because of the Pharaoh's attempt to kill all the male children of the Israelites and his stubborn refusal to submit to God's command that he let the Israelites go.

Pharaoh's stubborn refusal to submit to God's will is a type of the sin of all mankind.

The Israelites put the blood of the sacrificial lamb on their doorposts and when the death angel saw it, he passed over that house without killing the firstborn. So the blood of the lamb saved them from death and became a type and foreshadowing of Jesus' shed blood.

iakov the fool

 

[Papa Zoom]

nope i gave a full chapter to read. to say the Passover for Israel out of Egypt was God wrath does not line up with scripture

ahhh, I get it. ;)

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Stove. I’m not 100% sure what we’re disagreeing with at this point. You say you don’t “deny God’s wrath”. Good. Nor do I. Further, you agree that God would slay the firstborn of every Israelite household unless there is blood on its door-posts. Fine. Wouldn’t that be an example of the outpouring of God’s wrath though? If so, what do you think God was angry about? And, if not, why would God slay the firstborn?

Elsewhere you say: “God does not get angry with Israel until the incident of the Golden calf”. But I cited Ezek. 20 in an earlier post. Here are a few verses of it in full:



This strikes me as very clear.

James.

Hi James,
I think we started disagreeing on the "MAIN POINT" of Passover. I stated that the focal point was Redemptive in Nature, where you have inferred the focal point was based on wrath.

Above you seem to think that God was angry and pouring out his wrath on Israel, and then rhetorically ask why God would slay the first born. I'm sorry that I want to be lazy here, but I'll try to lay out the narrative. Please, follow along.

1. Exodus 12:12 Emphasis on 'All the Gods of Egypt'. When you look at the plagues, you have to realize that each plague was against one of the gods of Egypt, for Egypt had many gods. Each plague was God's wonder to show that not only was YHVH in Egypt, but he was greater than each god of Egypt. David Padfield puts it this way,

http://www.padfield.com/2002/egypt_3.html

This plague was directed against "all of the gods of Egypt" (Exo. 12:12) and would show the total inability of the gods of Egypt to protect their subjects. In the face of unparalleled tragedy, "all of the gods of Egypt" were silent. Where was Meskhenet, the goddess who presided at the birth of children? Where was Hathor, one of the seven deities who attended the birth of children? Where was Min, the god of procreation? Where was Isis, the goddess of fertility? Where was Selket, the guardian of life? Where was Renenutet, the cobra-goddess and guardian of Pharaoh?

If you want to know who God was angry with, it was Pharaoh / Egypt. We call it systemic sin. Its when oppression starts at the top, and trickles down. Think of it this way. Pharaoh takes away their straw and expects them to produce the same amount of bricks. A man comes home who was beaten for not making his quota and his child asks, "Why were you beaten". The man replies, "I was beaten because I did not make my quota. As a result, the soldier who beat me got beat by his superior, because he did not make his quota".
And this continues up the line...

Exodus 2:23-25 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel groaned by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. And God looked upon the children of Israel, and God had concern for them.

Moving forward in the narrative, we see that God was getting ready to go up against the Empire, which was Egypt. It was the powerhouse of the day, and Pharaoh was supreme ruler. This is also the first place in the bible that we see God taking a nation for himself.

Exodus 4:21-23 And the LORD said unto Moses, When you go to return into Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh, whom I have put in your hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn: And I say unto you, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

As far as Ezekiel 20, it is referring to the incident of the Golden Calf as well as forward in time of that event. As a bonus, I have a book called Ancient Near Eastern Texts. Unfortunately it is in a closed bookshelf with Christmas decorations and presents surrounding it or I would go dig it out. In it are letters written I believe to Cyrus to rebuild a temple for an Egyptian god, who I can't seem to recall. There are two or three letters written asking to rebuild this temple. If you recall, it was Cyrus who authorized the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem. Ironically, these writings are from the same exile period as Ezekiel's writing. I'm going to assume you know your biblical timelines and that Ezekiel was a priest who served in the LORD's Temple and was writing from exile after the destruction in 586 BC.

 

[James Bejon]

Hi Stove. Apologies for the delayed reply; I’ve only just seen your post.

First a quick word of clarification re your initial point. I have never said (or at least, if I have, I have never meant to say) that the focal point of the Passover was wrath; I’m not even sure what such a claim would mean in practice. My point is simply that wrath is in fact involved in the Passover--more specifically, that the Passover sacrifice is both penal (due to God’s anger with his people, Israel) and substitutionary (due to the way in which either a lamb must die or a firstborn son must die in each Israelite house).

As for your point about Pharaoh and the gods of Egypt: again, I don’t deny other aspects of the Exodus narrative; indeed, I explicitly brought up the way in which it entails the judgment of Egypt’s gods.

I am glad you have engaged with the text of Ezek. 20, but I don’t think you can dismiss its relevance to the issue at hand simply by saying “it is referring to the incident of the Golden Calf”. In Ezek. 20, God gives Israel a command to forsake Egypt’s idols at the same time as he announces his intention to lead them out of Egypt (20.5-7). Israel choose not to do so, which angers God, so God says he has resolved to pour out his wrath on them “in the midst of the land of Egypt” (20.8), but God then says he has decided to spare Israel--specifically, to ‘act for the sake of his name’--, saying, “So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness” (20.9-10). The text of 20.5-10 can’t, therefore, be relegated to the time from the Golden Calf incident onwards. It is explicitly set in the period prior to the moment when God leads his people out of Egypt. The statements above make this very clear.

James.