Was Jesus a sinner like everyone else?

[DivineNames]

http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

 

[Jay T]

http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

No, or He would have needed a Saviour Himself.

He never broke the sabbath, as some try to say, either.

 

[DivineNames]

http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

No, or He would have needed a Saviour Himself.

He never broke the sabbath, as some try to say, either.

Didn't his disciples break the sabbath, by eating grain?


Also, Jesus wouldn't have needed a saviour if he were a sinner, if a Jesus-like saviour isn't needed. (Obviously)

 

[Vic C.]

Didn't his disciples break the sabbath, by eating grain?...

Eating is not a violation of the sabbath. Actually, eating is very much a part of the sabbath.

Now to address whether or not Jesus broke the "rules"...

Matthew 12
1 ¶ At that time on the sabbath, Jesus went through the grain fields. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
2 But seeing, the Pharisees said to Him, Behold, your disciples are doing what it is not lawful to do on the sabbath.
3 But He said to them, Have you not read what David did, when he and those with him hungered?
4 How he entered into the house of God, and he ate the Loaves of the Presentation, which it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those with him, but for the priests only?
5 Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are guiltless?
6 But I say to you, One greater than the temple is here.
7 But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned the guiltless. Hos. 6:6
8 For the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath. (LITV)

You will similar accounts in Mark 2 and Luke 6.

 

[Vic C.]

DivineNames, instead of having to weed through the forrest of issues on that link, maybe you could pick out a few to discuss.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[DivineNames]

Now to address whether or not Jesus broke the "rules"...

Matthew 12
1 ¶ At that time on the sabbath, Jesus went through the grain fields. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat.
2 But seeing, the Pharisees said to Him, Behold, your disciples are doing what it is not lawful to do on the sabbath.
3 But He said to them, Have you not read what David did, when he and those with him hungered?
4 How he entered into the house of God, and he ate the Loaves of the Presentation, which it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those with him, but for the priests only?
5 Or have you not read in the Law that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are guiltless?
6 But I say to you, One greater than the temple is here.
7 But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned the guiltless. Hos. 6:6
8 For the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath. (LITV)

You will similar accounts in Mark 2 and Luke 6.

The Jewish response to this seems to be-

(1) Ahimelech was the High Priest, not Abiathar (factual error)
(2) David was alone (factual error)
(3) It would not be unlawful for David to eat the bread
(4) David was in fear of his life and needed food, the same could not be said for the disciples of Jesus.
(5) Even if David HAD sinned, how exactly would that help Jesus?

So Jesus broke the law, and had a very poor excuse.

 

[DivineNames]

DivineNames, instead of having to weed through the forrest of issues on that link, maybe you could pick out a few to discuss.

Thanks,
Vic

Fair point, I will keep it to specific examples.

 

[DivineNames]

Eating is not a violation of the sabbath. Actually, eating is very much a part of the sabbath.

Yes, but they picked the grain. Picking seems to be regarded by Jews as work.

 

[Vic C.]

So Jesus broke the law, and had a very poor excuse.

Jesus did not break the Law... and one more blasphemous statement like that and this thread is toast. Your thinking is like that of the Pharisees, so I will narrow down the Scripture for you.

6 But I say to you, One greater than the temple is here.
7 But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned the guiltless. Hos. 6:6
8 For the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.

(Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.)

 

[Khristeeanos]

1 Peter 2:21-23
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
"He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth." When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.


Christ committed no sin. THANK YOU JESUS!!!

 

[peace4all]

just something a lil broader on teh topic of "if jesus sinned"


Here is something I found of interest

Q: Is Jesus a human being?

A: The Lord Jesus exists eternally as God. But Jesus also became a man. At His conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary, he became a man with a true body and a true soul.

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a slave,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to deathâ€â€even death on a cross! (Philippians 2:5-8).

Since the children have flesh and blood, Christ also shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of deathâ€â€that is, the devil (Hebrews 2:14).

Now, I am not 100% sure because there seems to be some sort of, leaving it loose to interpretation in there, but it sounds as if jesus was born a human.

That in turn gives us

Scripture says that we are born sinners and that we are by nature sinners
Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." Ephesians 2:2 says that all people who are not in Christ are "sons of disobedience." Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all "by nature children of wrath." If we are all "by nature children of wrath," it can only be because we are all by nature sinners--for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

So it sort of comes down to, Was jesus a human?

Because in all essence, If jesus was not human, than the laws of the bible would seemingly not apply to him correct? What makes you human? he had a soul, he walked talked breathed and ate. He thought, he did everything humans did.

Is it just a matter of opinion?


Also.. Why would anyone say "follow in the path of jesus" if jesus was given pureness to start with, and we all start with broken legs?

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus was, without a doubt in my mind, born human. He was so much more than that though. He and the Father are One. By incarnating Himself as a human, He was able to experience all the emotions known to man, yet at the same time, He displayed the will of the Father and did not give in to the temptation of sin. What we learn from this is, by "following in His path", we are told wee too can overcome the temptation to sin.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

 

[Jay T]

http://www.messiahtruth.com/sinless.html

No, or He would have needed a Saviour Himself.

He never broke the sabbath, as some try to say, either.

Didn't his disciples break the sabbath, by eating grain?

No, it is not a sin to eat on the sabbath.
Had they been 'working' as in harvesting the grain....then, that would have been sin.

Also, Jesus wouldn't have needed a saviour if he were a sinner, if a Jesus-like saviour isn't needed. (Obviously)

A saviour is some who saves someone else form something.
Jesus Christ was to save the sinner 'from ' their sin.
Had Jesus sinned....He could not have been a Saviour....to save others.

 

[DivineNames]

Had they been 'working' as in harvesting the grain....then, that would have been sin.

Which is exactly what they were doing, as they were picking it. They may only have been picking what they wanted to immediately eat, but Jews regard this as work apparently.

 

[DivineNames]

Jesus did not break the Law... and one more blasphemous statement like that and this thread is toast. Your thinking is like that of the Pharisees, so I will narrow down the Scripture for you.

6 But I say to you, One greater than the temple is here.
7 But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned the guiltless. Hos. 6:6
8 For the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.

(Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.)

Matthew 12:5-8 (NIV)

(5) Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? (6) I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. (7) If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. (8) For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath


Is this a good argument? As I have been told, the priests aren't "desecrating the day", and are in fact commanded to bring sacrifices on the sabbath. They are not breaking any laws. So Jesus has given another false argument.

You have not provided any answer to the points I previously mentioned.

What Jesus has done, as far as I can see, is give some very dodgy argument, including factual errors, and then proclaims himself to be "Lord of the Sabbath". Its looks like embarrassingly foolish behaviour.

 

[Muad'Dib]

I'm not understanding your logic. Jesus was pointing out the narrow-mindedness of the Pharisees. I don't think it is "dodging" anything to point out how much more God values mercy to others over strict obedience to ritual. The Pharisees focused solely on the latter, Christ was more concerned with the former.

 

[mrflippy]

Eating is not a violation of the sabbath. Actually, eating is very much a part of the sabbath.

Yes, but they picked the grain. Picking seems to be regarded by Jews as work.

I bolded the part that's important.


Or, to put it a different way, who is the final word on the law? Is it really the Jews?

 

[peace4all]

would it not be jesus who was a jew?

 

[DivineNames]

Or, to put it a different way, who is the final word on the law? Is it really the Jews?

(32) While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. (33) Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, (34) and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. (35) Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." (Numbers 15:32-35 NIV)


These verses suggest that gathering was forbidden.

 

[DivineNames]

I'm not understanding your logic. Jesus was pointing out the narrow-mindedness of the Pharisees. I don't think it is "dodging" anything to point out how much more God values mercy to others over strict obedience to ritual. The Pharisees focused solely on the latter, Christ was more concerned with the former.

You misunderstood me a little. I didn't use the term "dodging", I said that the arguments Jesus gave were, "very dodgy", i.e. suspect/rubbish argument. Do you disagree with that?

God may well value mercy more than strict obedience to ritual. However, God commanded Jews to keep his law, and God was strict about it. Jesus gives a poor excuse to try and justify light snacking.