Bible Study Was King David Stupid or What?

[Georges]

How dumb can David be....? Didn't he know that the Law was a burden...? Didn't he know that it only led to death because no one could keep it? He was either dumb or insane....or maybe Paul was a liar.....which one is it?

Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart.

Psa 94:12 Blessed [is] the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;

Psa 105:10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, [and] to Israel [for] an everlasting covenant:

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psa 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.

Psa 119:34 Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.

Psa 119:53 Horror hath taken hold upon me because of the wicked that forsake thy law.

Psa 119:55 I have remembered thy name, O LORD, in the night, and have kept thy law.

Psa 119:70 Their heart is as fat as grease; [but] I delight in thy law.

Psa 119:72 The law of thy mouth [is] better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.

Psa 119:77 Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live: for thy law [is] my delight.

Psa 119:92 Unless thy law [had been] my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.

Psa 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it [is] my meditation all the day.

Psa 119:113 SAMECH. I hate [vain] thoughts: but thy law do I love.

Psa 119:163 I hate and abhor lying: [but] thy law do I love.

Psa 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Psa 119:174 I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law [is] my delight.

Pro 6:23 For the commandment [is] a lamp; and the law [is] light; and reproofs of instruction [are] the way of life:

Pro 29:18 Where [there is] no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy [is] he.

Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.


Psa 119:12 Blessed [art] thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.

Psa 119:54 Thy statutes have been my songs in the house of my pilgrimage.

Psa 119:68 Thou [art] good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes.

Psa 119:80 Let my heart be sound in thy statutes; that I be not ashamed.

Psa 119:83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; [yet] do I not forget thy statutes.

Psa 119:112 I have inclined mine heart to perform thy statutes alway, [even unto] the end.

Psa 119:171 My lips shall utter praise, when thou hast taught me thy statutes.


I'm seeing a pattern here.....and it ain't that same as what Paul describes....unless I'm missing something here...the Jews delight in the Law of God....hmmmm they must like that yoke....maybe it's a yoke that keeps them on the path to righteousness....

 

[ChristineES]

Maybe you are forgetting that David was around long before Paul was. David was in fact, Joseph's ancestor (did you read Jesus Geneology in Matthew?) The Old Testament took place before the New Testament. David was a good Jew, he was a man after God's heart. Jesus was born in David's line because God promised David that his family would always be "King". (don't worry, I haven't forgotten that Jesus was God's son).
David wanted to please God, and in pleasing God, that made him joyous.

 

[Imagican]

And never forget WHY David was a man after God's own heart. No matter how much of the law he disobeyed he ALWAYS went back with repentance in his heart and asked for forgiveness,

George, what you forget is the 'running' part. We are to run the race like we mean to win it. Is is possible for everyone to finish EVEN? Not likely. So, do we give up knowing that in a race there can be only one winner? NO, we try all the harder to be the ONE. Hopefully that will be enough. If not, at least you tried. Sure beats giving up.

 

[Georges]

Maybe you are forgetting that David was around long before Paul was. David was in fact, Joseph's ancestor (did you read Jesus Geneology in Matthew?) The Old Testament took place before the New Testament. David was a good Jew, he was a man after God's heart. Jesus was born in David's line because God promised David that his family would always be "King". (don't worry, I haven't forgotten that Jesus was God's son).
David wanted to please God, and in pleasing God, that made him joyous.

Christine...the thread was intended to poke a little fun at those who continually call the Law...a burden or a heavy yoke...or an oppression....or what ever term they would like to use meaning "Slavery".....

Clearly Jews...such as David, consider it a "JOY" to obey Torah....Paul is the only one who has contrived it and sqewed it as a burden....The Jews have a different mindset in obeying Torah than what Christian's conceive they do.

Even in the book of Acts....James is remarking as to not a couple, but thousands of Jews who believe in Jesus and are zealous for the Torah....

Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

 

[Georges]

And never forget WHY David was a man after God's own heart. No matter how much of the law he disobeyed he ALWAYS went back with repentance in his heart and asked for forgiveness,

George, what you forget is the 'running' part. We are to run the race like we mean to win it. Is is possible for everyone to finish EVEN? Not likely. So, do we give up knowing that in a race there can be only one winner? NO, we try all the harder to be the ONE. Hopefully that will be enough. If not, at least you tried. Sure beats giving up.

I haven't givin up........yet....

What you said in your opening paragraph is paramont in recieving forgiveness...David is the ultimate example of a contriet and repentful heart...He is the example of how we should approach God when we sin...

Ima, I'm not forgetting anything.....the post is about the "burden of the Law" that many on these forums espouse....David is a Liar, Paul is not....which is it? They both speak oppositely of the Torah....David loved the Torah, Paul did not....David considered it a joy to obey Torah, Paul considered it slavery....or bondage.

 

[ChristineES]

Maybe you are forgetting that David was around long before Paul was. David was in fact, Joseph's ancestor (did you read Jesus Geneology in Matthew?) The Old Testament took place before the New Testament. David was a good Jew, he was a man after God's heart. Jesus was born in David's line because God promised David that his family would always be "King". (don't worry, I haven't forgotten that Jesus was God's son).
David wanted to please God, and in pleasing God, that made him joyous.

Christine...the thread was intended to poke a little fun at those who continually call the Law...a burden or a heavy yoke...or an oppression....or what ever term they would like to use meaning "Slavery".....

Clearly Jews...such as David, consider it a "JOY" to obey Torah....Paul is the only one who has contrived it and sqewed it as a burden....The Jews have a different mindset in obeying Torah than what Christian's conceive they do.

Even in the book of Acts....James is remarking as to not a couple, but thousands of Jews who believe in Jesus and are zealous for the Torah....

Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

Thank God, I was hoping deep down that this was meant to be humorous. :-D

 

[gingercat]

Thank you for your post georges. :D

 

[HisFriend]

And never forget WHY David was a man after God's own heart. No matter how much of the law he disobeyed he ALWAYS went back with repentance in his heart and asked for forgiveness,

George, what you forget is the 'running' part. We are to run the race like we mean to win it. Is is possible for everyone to finish EVEN? Not likely. So, do we give up knowing that in a race there can be only one winner? NO, we try all the harder to be the ONE. Hopefully that will be enough. If not, at least you tried. Sure beats giving up.

I haven't givin up........yet....

What you said in your opening paragraph is paramont in recieving forgiveness...David is the ultimate example of a contriet and repentful heart...He is the example of how we should approach God when we sin...

Ima, I'm not forgetting anything.....the post is about the "burden of the Law" that many on these forums espouse....David is a Liar, Paul is not....which is it? They both speak oppositely of the Torah....David loved the Torah, Paul did not....David considered it a joy to obey Torah, Paul considered it slavery....or bondage.

What you do not comprehend is how the cross changed life for the Jew. Jesus' death fulfilled all that the Law required. This reality did not exist in David's time. He was a Jew under and bound to the Law. I am not. I am a Christian who has never been under the Law and I am bound to Christ.

 

[Georges]

And never forget WHY David was a man after God's own heart. No matter how much of the law he disobeyed he ALWAYS went back with repentance in his heart and asked for forgiveness,

George, what you forget is the 'running' part. We are to run the race like we mean to win it. Is is possible for everyone to finish EVEN? Not likely. So, do we give up knowing that in a race there can be only one winner? NO, we try all the harder to be the ONE. Hopefully that will be enough. If not, at least you tried. Sure beats giving up.

I haven't givin up........yet....

What you said in your opening paragraph is paramont in recieving forgiveness...David is the ultimate example of a contriet and repentful heart...He is the example of how we should approach God when we sin...

Ima, I'm not forgetting anything.....the post is about the "burden of the Law" that many on these forums espouse....David is a Liar, Paul is not....which is it? They both speak oppositely of the Torah....David loved the Torah, Paul did not....David considered it a joy to obey Torah, Paul considered it slavery....or bondage.

What you do not comprehend is how the cross changed life for the Jew.

Oh I comprehend very well.....

Jesus' death fulfilled all that the Law required.

Has heaven and earth passed away? I must have missed that...

This reality did not exist in David's time.

That's right....because it is a lie.....put forth by replacement theologists...

He was a Jew under and bound to the Law.

Yeh...bound so heavily that he rejoiced in his heavy burden......get serious...
:-D
I am not.

Glad to hear that.....first thing you got right in this post...No man is bound to it...they simply choose to obey it or not.

I am a Christian who has never been under the Law and I am bound to Christ.

So you are trading one bondage for another? When both represent the same thing? Love your neighbor.....Friend you bought the replacement theologist lie....

Care to try again?

 

[Imagican]

And never forget WHY David was a man after God's own heart. No matter how much of the law he disobeyed he ALWAYS went back with repentance in his heart and asked for forgiveness,

George, what you forget is the 'running' part. We are to run the race like we mean to win it. Is is possible for everyone to finish EVEN? Not likely. So, do we give up knowing that in a race there can be only one winner? NO, we try all the harder to be the ONE. Hopefully that will be enough. If not, at least you tried. Sure beats giving up.

I haven't given up........yet....

What you said in your opening paragraph is paramont in recieving forgiveness...David is the ultimate example of a contriet and repentful heart...He is the example of how we should approach God when we sin...

Ima, I'm not forgetting anything.....the post is about the "burden of the Law" that many on these forums espouse....David is a Liar, Paul is not....which is it? They both speak oppositely of the Torah....David loved the Torah, Paul did not....David considered it a joy to obey Torah, Paul considered it slavery....or bondage.

No, my friend, Paul wasn't a liar nor was David. The law was given in order to teach the Jews 'how to love'. Not only God FIRST, but each other as well. It was obviously the 'only' way that this could be done.

Then there came a time for a 'new', teaching. Not only for the Jews, but for ALL men.

Upon Christ's death upon the cross, ALL the law was fulfilled. The Jews were NO longer bound by death for their sins. I know that this is hard for some to understand. But, once the law was fulfilled, NO men were bound to death by the law. YES, we are certainly responsible for our sins, but the 'written' law no longer binds us to death. Why? Because we NOW have the ULTIMATE sacrifice for ALL sin.

Now, not being bound by the law DOES NOT give us a license to sin. Actually, once we accept Christ into our hearts, our sins take on an even MORE personal assault against God AND the Son. But, where once the Jews were commanded to offer sacrifices to 'cover' their sins, we ALL now have Christ as the ULTIMATE and FINAL sacrifice.

I know that your understanding is formed from a more OT standard, but this is EXACTLY what Peter suffered from also. His conflict was having to 'give up' what he had always known 'before' Christ. It took Paul's urging and then divine intervention to convince him that the 'old' way had changed.

As a direct 'proof' of what I offer: Are the laws concerning circumcision still in effect? Then I offer that this is the SAME with ALL the OT law. One may certainly still choose circumcision, but it doesn't change their relationship ONE way or the other.

Shall we throw out the law and simply 'do as we wilt'. NO WAY. For if Christ lives in you, then ALL the old laws and THEN some are NOW written in your heart. That means that when Christ lives in you, you KNOW what you are to do or not to do REGARDLESS of ANY written law. And anyone that doesn't know how to love the Father First, and others as himself certainly lacks Christ in their hearts.

 

[Georges]

And never forget WHY David was a man after God's own heart. No matter how much of the law he disobeyed he ALWAYS went back with repentance in his heart and asked for forgiveness,

George, what you forget is the 'running' part. We are to run the race like we mean to win it. Is is possible for everyone to finish EVEN? Not likely. So, do we give up knowing that in a race there can be only one winner? NO, we try all the harder to be the ONE. Hopefully that will be enough. If not, at least you tried. Sure beats giving up.

I haven't given up........yet....

What you said in your opening paragraph is paramont in recieving forgiveness...David is the ultimate example of a contriet and repentful heart...He is the example of how we should approach God when we sin...

Ima, I'm not forgetting anything.....the post is about the "burden of the Law" that many on these forums espouse....David is a Liar, Paul is not....which is it? They both speak oppositely of the Torah....David loved the Torah, Paul did not....David considered it a joy to obey Torah, Paul considered it slavery....or bondage.

No, my friend, Paul wasn't a liar nor was David.

David is not.....Paul being all things to all men appears to be a chameleon. The Paul of Acts and the Paul of the Letters shows that he (or whoever his writtings are attributed to, cannot be completely trusted). If Paul considered the Law a "slave burden" then he is a liar....plain and simple....David (or any other Jew) does/did not.

The law was given in order to teach the Jews 'how to love'. Not only God FIRST, but each other as well. It was obviously the 'only' way that this could be done.

Agreed...

Then there came a time for a 'new', teaching. Not only for the Jews, but for ALL men.

Not so....Torah still teaches the same....Jesus said not one Jot or Tittle will pass....it's meaning remains the same.

Upon Christ's death upon the cross, ALL the law was fulfilled.

Not so.....Heaven and earth haven't passed away....that law won't be fulfilled until the end of the Messianic Kingdom age.

The Jews were NO longer bound by death for their sins.

That is a Pauline misconception by Gentile Christians....God always provided a means to make a man righteous in the Law....For example, if a man sins, what does the law require to make it right? (i.e. sacrifice). Once a man makes it right "by what is prescribed", his sin is forgiven....What part of that is being bound?

I know that this is hard for some to understand. But, once the law was fulfilled, NO men were bound to death by the law.

The Law hasn't been fulfilled....Jesus was the Goal of the Law and Prophets...not the end of them. At that...it is aimed at the first and second comings....that hasn't completely yet.

YES, we are certainly responsible for our sins, but the 'written' law no longer binds us to death.

Never did...Again, Pauline misconception...The Law is an instruction on how to live righteously....with provisions for atonement for when we sin.....we sin, we go to the law and see what was required to make it right....no binding to death...but rather a way to life.

Why? Because we NOW have the ULTIMATE sacrifice for ALL sin.

God...never required a human sacrifice for sin....never....God forgives sin because he is God.

Now, not being bound by the law DOES NOT give us a license to sin.

Again, Pauline misconception....those who follow Torah are not bound under a death sentence yoke. They have a set of instructions on how to live righteously with a set of "how to" instructions for sin atonement.

Actually, once we accept Christ into our hearts, our sins take on an even MORE personal assault against God AND the Son. But, where once the Jews were commanded to offer sacrifices to 'cover' their sins, we ALL now have Christ as the ULTIMATE and FINAL sacrifice.

Not so....all God requires is a repentent and contriet heart for forgiveness...not a human blood sacrifice.

I know that your understanding is formed from a more OT standard, but this is EXACTLY what Peter suffered from also.

Not really.....I've been on the Paul side of the fence for most of my life..so I know the arguments most present in the forum....I've presented them myself...until the swich came on and I looked at it from a different angle.

His conflict was having to 'give up' what he had always known 'before' Christ. It took Paul's urging and then divine intervention to convince him that the 'old' way had changed.

That's not quite true....Peter stayed true to his Nazarene roots.....according to what James and the Jerusalem elders expected from Jewish Christians. Paul was in err...that is why he was summond to Jerusalem...


As a direct 'proof' of what I offer: Are the laws concerning circumcision still in effect?

Yes...if you choose to proselyte to Judaism....as the early Nazarene community was either Jewish or proselytes to Judaism. For Gentile Christians..no, as seen in Acts 15,21...however this was with the intent of eventual full proselytic conversion....Was Timothy circumcized post Pentecost?

Then I offer that this is the SAME with ALL the OT law.

See my Timothy point above....

One may certainly still choose circumcision, but it doesn't change their relationship ONE way or the other.

Was Abraham a Jew to be Circumcised? How about every believer between Abraham and Sinai? Circumcision is a faith requirement that identifies you with God's promise......

Shall we throw out the law and simply 'do as we wilt'. NO WAY. For if Christ lives in you, then ALL the old laws and THEN some are NOW written in your heart. That means that when Christ lives in you, you KNOW what you are to do or not to do REGARDLESS of ANY written law. And anyone that doesn't know how to love the Father First, and others as himself certainly lacks Christ in their hearts.

Well.....Ima..... my response in red.

 

[Imagican]

Georges,

As many of your posts that I have read concerning Jewish law, (Mosaic law), I know that you didn't really mean much of what you stated in your last post.

Mosaic law called for the STONING death of many of the laws that you say did not bind those that broke them to death. Obviously you 'overlooked' these.

So, I take it that you believe that the entire story of Paul on the road to Damascus just another Pauline deception?

And, if the 'true' apostles were filled with the Spirit, wouldn't they have been able to expose this fraudulent apostle Paul? I have yet to EVEN HEAR of ANY of the apostles writing ANYTHING that offered an explanation of Paul being an heretic. Seems as if the Spirit truly dwelt within the apostles that at least one of them would have offered SOME kind of warning against his teachings.

No, Georges, there is MUCH warning to the Jews concerning their turning away from God. Not only did they NOT conform to the Mosaic law, they turned MANY times to other gods even. By the time of Christ, these people had veered SO far from God that 99 percent of them didn't even recognize their Messiah.

The law HAS NOT been changed one tit. Only the way in which we are to obey it. There is NO longer a need for the sacrifice of animals or grain in the sense that it was used OT. Now we offer the sacrifice by sharing it with our neighbors, (or at least we are supposed to). So, if there is no longer animal or meat sacrifices to be offered for our sins, where do we NOW find our forgiveness? Exactly. And if Christ TRULY lives within us and we ARE the temple, how could we NEED a written law any longer? Do you really believe that He would leave us in the dark if we trust in Him?

And don't forget that the Jews were told that they would NOT always live under the law as they did during the time of Moses. They were told that a greater prophet than him would one day come and offer a 'better' way.

 

[Georges]

Georges,

As many of your posts that I have read concerning Jewish law, (Mosaic law), I know that you didn't really mean much of what you stated in your last post.

Mosaic law called for the STONING death of many of the laws that you say did not bind those that broke them to death. Obviously you 'overlooked' these.

Let me ask you a question.......If the penalty for these Laws were really enforced.....How many of these Laws would be broken? Would you, I, or anyone else think a little more seriously about committing the crime?

I certainly would.....




So, I take it that you believe that the entire story of Paul on the road to Damascus just another Pauline deception?

Depending on which version.....I think there may be 5 different ones...maybe 4....anyone that is at least 3 too many....so I guess the story is suspect....

And, if the 'true' apostles were filled with the Spirit, wouldn't they have been able to expose this fraudulent apostle Paul? I have yet to EVEN HEAR of ANY of the apostles writing ANYTHING that offered an explanation of Paul being an heretic.

You are right.....how many documents have survived from any of the other Apostles....? Not very many.....wonder how come? Possibly because they taught something different than Paul.....

Don't you think that if they were in agreement, then there would be a multitude of books that corroborate what Paul states in his letter's? I mean there were 12 Apostles....There should be 12 times the amount of material for them to go along with Paul...not necessarily stating "Paul is right", but rather in their own words...saying the same things as Paul thereby proving he/they are in agreement. History proves a contention between Paul and James (the leader of the Apostles).

The only thing we have to show is Paul's seeming contradiction in his Letters compared to his actions in Acts. Also....the extra biblical history of the Nazarene/Ebionites who were decendents from the Church of Jerusalem. These considered Paul a false apostle....up until the 4th century, when they were wiped out by the Church in Rome. Of course the Church at Rome is Paul supportive....to the winner the "History" is friendly.



Seems as if the Spirit truly dwelt within the apostles that at least one of them would have offered SOME kind of warning against his teachings.

IMO the proof is in History, and Pauls apparent contradiction between the Letters and Acts....

No, Georges, there is MUCH warning to the Jews concerning their turning away from God.

As there always has been since Sinai....

Not only did they NOT conform to the Mosaic law, they turned MANY times to other gods even. By the time of Christ, these people had veered SO far from God that 99 percent of them didn't even recognize their Messiah.

I think estimates indicate that 2 out of 5 Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah...At that time in history, the Jews were looking for the Messiah...Jesus wasn't the only one to have appeared....there were a handful that the Pharisee's scrutinized and accepted as possible.

And you forget the biggest issue....the Church was mainly comprized of JEWS for the first 40 years + ......

The law HAS NOT been changed one tit.

So why are you arguing with me on it?

Only the way in which we are to obey it. There is NO longer a need for the sacrifice of animals or grain in the sense that it was used OT.

Then why did Paul (or the Chameleon) perform the Nazarite Vow (Acts 21)? That included animal sacrifice.....

Now we offer the sacrifice by sharing it with our neighbors, (or at least we are supposed to). So, if there is no longer animal or meat sacrifices to be offered for our sins, where do we NOW find our forgiveness?

Sorry to be the bearer of this news....but God doesn't need a blood, meat, grain, or monetary sacrifice to forgive your sins....He requires a broken and contreit heart and true repentence....period. He forgives your sins because he is God......To think that a sacrifice is needed as a replacement...is Pauline...and pagan.

Exactly. And if Christ TRULY lives within us and we ARE the temple, how could we NEED a written law any longer?

You need a written law for the very reason you need a written law for speeding down the street....because you are human and need to be reminded of how to act righteously.

Do you really believe that He would leave us in the dark if we trust in Him?

IMA.....Thats the whole point....thank you for asking that question. That is exactly why he gave the Law (instruction to righteousness) in writting....So we wouldn't be in the dark. Obviously, God knows our weaknesses...trusting or not....Therefore, he left no doubt...hence the written Law. It's Jewish legality a written contract.

And don't forget that the Jews were told that they would NOT always live under the law as they did during the time of Moses. They were told that a greater prophet than him would one day come and offer a 'better' way.

Yet to be realized....and guess what? Messiah teaches the....yes....Mosaic Law in the Messianic Kingdom....Eze 40-46.

 

[Imagican]

Georges,

I may be mistaken but I think you and I have been through much of this before. If not, let me ask you this:

Exactly, and I mean 'really', which laws are we to continue in and which ones DON'T matter any more? I am really curious as to your understanding of this matter. Please be aware before offering your answer that I am WELL aware of the laws offered through Moses to the Jews. Please, PLEASE don't offer that the ONLY laws were the ten commandments that everyone is so familiar with. I am referring to THE LAWS given by Moses to the Jewish people throughout their forty year trek through the desert. Which ones are still in effect and which ones are not?

And after you answer this or together with your answer, please explain the WHY of this.

Thanks,

MEC

 

[Georges]

Georges,

I may be mistaken but I think you and I have been through much of this before. If not, let me ask you this:

We probably have, and probably will again...

Exactly, and I mean 'really', which laws are we to continue in and which ones DON'T matter any more? I am really curious as to your understanding of this matter. Please be aware before offering your answer that I am WELL aware of the laws offered through Moses to the Jews. Please, PLEASE don't offer that the ONLY laws were the ten commandments that everyone is so familiar with. I am referring to THE LAWS given by Moses to the Jewish people throughout their forty year trek through the desert. Which ones are still in effect and which ones are not?

Traditionally there a 613 Laws....These are broken up into different catagories for different people and situations....Some of the Laws don't apply to certain individual's...(i.e. Law's concerning the priesthood aren't applicable to the average Joe). Certain Laws only apply to location...(i.e. Some laws only are applicable when one is in Israel). Certain Laws only apply when the Temple is standing (i.e. sacrifices....). Certain Laws only apply to Gentiles (God Fearer's).
Certain Laws apply to Gentile Proselytes......

It's a matter of finding what Law's apply to you....the rest don't matter. I think the list can be wittled down pretty quickly.

Here is a list for the 613.....how many can you wittle it down to...and how many do you already observe....?

http://www.hatikva.org/resources/613.html


And after you answer this or together with your answer, please explain the WHY of this.

Because you (anyone) should honor God by living as righteously as they can...Here is the written Guide on how to do that....

Thanks,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Georges,

I thought that there were more like 900 laws, but this is really irrelevant to our conversation.

I try my best to follow this:

Love God ABOVE ALL ELSE, and Love my neighbor as myself. These TWO are hard enough so that it leaves little time for anything else that I may add to it IF I am ever able to come close to these.

While ALL would be observed were we able to accomplish them, (the two), I am bound to death by neither. I am able to receive forgiveness for my weaknesses and inability to complete these two.

And, as Christ, the Son of God, plainly stated: 'All the law and all the prophets are COMPLETE in these two.(The 'complete' part MY WORD added to show my understanding). Thus the obviousness of the 'purpose' for ALL the laws to begin with.

God is love and this is what He would choose for us also. For this reason there was law offered from the beginning. This 'love' has NOT changed one bit since the creation of man. Neither His, nor ours. So, this places us in a position to achieve at least a small portion of that desired of us from the Father.

You offered much of what I speak in your definition on the 'what is a Christian' thread. I commended you here, for what you offered couldn't be closer to the 'truth'.

Now, the obedience part MUST come from love. If done through a spirit of 'obligation' then there is NO love, only fear of reprisal. This fear would 'defeat' love and therefore void the purpose of the offering of 'law' to begin with.

So the law was nothing but a precursor to that 'more perfect way' we were told would come. Christ IS that 'more perfect way'. And, an emulation of His actions and words, there is no greater accomplishment that we could pursue, (so long as this emulation is done through love rather than obligation).

 

[Georges]

Ima....the "obligation" is the Christian fallacy of their perception of what "Law" means....


To the Christian it is taught as being a burden...a curse unto death...

To the Jew, it is a joy.....and not a burden....Paul taught falsely....

In the Messianic Kingdom, Christ will teach Torah...the people will have that written in their hearts...that is when it will be fulfilled.


and....the tassles on the corners of the tallit the Jews were represent the 613 laws...