Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
what a silly argument
- Thread starter miamited
- Start date
It is literally written in God's law that a murderer is to be put to death. So, yes, Jesus tells us to be merciful, but I don't believe that he intended that to mean that we can't put to death those who qualify for such, under His own Father's law.
Come on, people. I understand that the world, those who are making the argument in this article, don't understand what we are allowed to do as believers. This article is trying to make the point that because our justice department is seeking the death penalty for a murderous crime, and it's during Pres. Biden's administration, that shows that Pres. Biden is what? An unbeliever? Really!?!?!?!
That's their argument as I understand it being explained in this article. Now, I understand that it's an opinion piece, but really, is that what believers believer about this situation.
God bless,
Ted
Come on, people. I understand that the world, those who are making the argument in this article, don't understand what we are allowed to do as believers. This article is trying to make the point that because our justice department is seeking the death penalty for a murderous crime, and it's during Pres. Biden's administration, that shows that Pres. Biden is what? An unbeliever? Really!?!?!?!
That's their argument as I understand it being explained in this article. Now, I understand that it's an opinion piece, but really, is that what believers believer about this situation.
God bless,
Ted
Corn Pop
Member
The reason christians dont stone people or give the death penalty is becauase Jesus clarified the law that punishing a sinner when your a sinner yourself is hypocrate. Thats why everyone dropped there stones and walked away and was humbled , and Jesus was the last one standing and decided to have mercy on the woman who was about to be stoned.
Jesus spoke about an eye for an eye. Someone murdered someone so that is worthy of death, but then someone just murdered them for being a murderer, so thats hypocrate. The other thing its wishing death on the enemy, some people would rather someone rot in hell than pray they might repent and be saved.
Thats the definition of hypocrate, claiming someone else is a sinner so is worthy of punishment yet your also a sinner. Only the self righteous believe otherwise.
At least with prison they away from society and have time to reflect and maybe be remorceful and repent and might be saved. Many ruthless criminals and terrorists have humbled themsleves and been saved from doing time and turned there lives around for the better. Although prison is no good for no one and doesnt do anything good for the many, if a few get saved doing time thats better than none at all.
Jesus spoke about an eye for an eye. Someone murdered someone so that is worthy of death, but then someone just murdered them for being a murderer, so thats hypocrate. The other thing its wishing death on the enemy, some people would rather someone rot in hell than pray they might repent and be saved.
Thats the definition of hypocrate, claiming someone else is a sinner so is worthy of punishment yet your also a sinner. Only the self righteous believe otherwise.
At least with prison they away from society and have time to reflect and maybe be remorceful and repent and might be saved. Many ruthless criminals and terrorists have humbled themsleves and been saved from doing time and turned there lives around for the better. Although prison is no good for no one and doesnt do anything good for the many, if a few get saved doing time thats better than none at all.
Hi King Dan of Great the 1st
Yes, as individuals we should not cast such judgments on people. That's why, from what I'm reading even in the new covenant after Jesus' death, that the civil authorities bear the sword. Yes, we as an individual believer should be merciful to those who are dead in their sin. But God has instituted the governments and their authority over their people as having all the rights to determine guilt and to then establish prison sentences, even death.
So, I'm not going to pronounce judgment, although I'm free to talk about things that people have done. But it is the government that bears the sword of punishment for crime.
God bless,
Ted
Yes, as individuals we should not cast such judgments on people. That's why, from what I'm reading even in the new covenant after Jesus' death, that the civil authorities bear the sword. Yes, we as an individual believer should be merciful to those who are dead in their sin. But God has instituted the governments and their authority over their people as having all the rights to determine guilt and to then establish prison sentences, even death.
So, I'm not going to pronounce judgment, although I'm free to talk about things that people have done. But it is the government that bears the sword of punishment for crime.
God bless,
Ted
Riven
Member
Because as the article clearly states, that piece of trash ran on the idea of abolishing the death penalty. And if you really think Joe Biden is a follower of God, then I have a bridge to sell you.
Hi Riven
For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, SLANDER.
God bless,
Ted
It's always pretty easy to tell those whose hearts are filled with hate.
For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, SLANDER.
God bless,
Ted
Riven
Member
This is politics, Ted. It's not for the faint of heart or the serious of temperament. His son Hunter is a chip off the old block. He's a piece of trash, too.
Hi Riven
Look you speak from what's in your heart and I'll speak from what's in mine...even in political discussions.
So, let me see if I understand you here. You're making this claim that Pres. Biden has failed us because he made a commitment in his campaigning to get rid of the death penalty. Is that because you also want to get rid of the death penalty and he failed your purposes? Or is it because you've found something you can spread out there in the world that Pres. Biden hasn't kept his campaign commitments to us?
Before you answer, consider that if it's the later, there's a pretty long list that I can post here of all the failures to keep commitments made on the campaign trail by others, specifically one man. So, in fairness, if you're using this derogatory and demeaning description of a man because he has done something that someone else has also done, wouldn't it be fair to describe both men with the same derogatory and hateful platitudes? I'm confident that's what any born again believer would do. Be fair in his assessments of others.
God bless,
Ted
Look you speak from what's in your heart and I'll speak from what's in mine...even in political discussions.
So, let me see if I understand you here. You're making this claim that Pres. Biden has failed us because he made a commitment in his campaigning to get rid of the death penalty. Is that because you also want to get rid of the death penalty and he failed your purposes? Or is it because you've found something you can spread out there in the world that Pres. Biden hasn't kept his campaign commitments to us?
Before you answer, consider that if it's the later, there's a pretty long list that I can post here of all the failures to keep commitments made on the campaign trail by others, specifically one man. So, in fairness, if you're using this derogatory and demeaning description of a man because he has done something that someone else has also done, wouldn't it be fair to describe both men with the same derogatory and hateful platitudes? I'm confident that's what any born again believer would do. Be fair in his assessments of others.
God bless,
Ted
BTW, are you running for some office? You mention that it's not for the faint of heart. I would agree as far as those who are actually running for a political position. That takes a lot of hard and diligent work. But for those of us out here who just vote our choice, I don't think it much matters what one's heart is like, they still get to vote and have their understandings and opinions. Wouldn't you agree? And really, did you mean that it's not for those of serious temperament? Because that's what your sentence says.
God bless,
Ted
God bless,
Ted
Riven
Member
The latter.
Yes. By all means, speak your mind about Trump. I've already given him what for over his failure to build the wall.
Well, I'm not born again. So, I can be hypocritical and say nasty things if I want to.
Riven
Member
No. I did run for class president once, but I lost because back then I was fat, and fat people are less likely to win elections. Just ask Chris Christie.
No. If you don't think it matters much, then why do you constantly make moral arguments wherever someone makes a strong statement against the current administration? I notice you don't seem to care too much if it's aimed towards Trump, or "Grump" as you put it.
Yes, I don't thunk it is because as the voting public, and as human beings, we have to be able to laugh at our situation from time to time. One can't take themselves too seriously.
Consecrated Life
Member
Where does this say that Joe is a "follower of God" ? MSN
Tenchi
Member
Well, hang on, here. In the particular case of the adulterous woman, Christ's point wasn't that moral judgments should never be made, only that one should not "throw stones" morally when one is guilty of willful sin, too. Moral judgment and condemnation of sin is necessary to being a moral person and is certainly vital to being a follower of Christ. And so, we read Christ saying,
John 7:24
24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
In this vein, Jesus also taught:
Matthew 7:1-5
1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Jesus does not forbid "speck removal" entirely; he forbade attempting such removal when one's own eye is filled with a "beam." First remove the "beam" from your own eye and then proceed on to "speck removal." The idea in Christ's words here is to avoid hypocritical judgement: Being guilty of willful sin oneself while judging another for the same. This hypocrisy must first be rectified so that one can then "take the speck out of your brother's eye."
On the matter of making moral judgments, Paul the apostle echoed Jesus. All moral judgment is not forbidden; only hypocritical judgment is.
Romans 2:3
3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
The Christian who proposes never to make a moral judgment about anything and refuses to condemn the wickedness of the rapist, or murderer, or drug dealer, or whatever, has, in doing so, become evil himself. In contrast to such a person, the example of Scripture is replete with moral judgments and harsh condemnation of sin.
Matthew 23:15
15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matthew 23:27-28
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
1 Corinthians 5:1-5
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.
2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 13:9-10
9 But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,
10 and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?
2 Peter 2:17-19
17 These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
And so on.
Romans 13:3-4
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
God has instituted governmental powers to "bear the sword" against evildoers and to "bring wrath upon the one who does evil." There is, then, a clear biblical basis for punishment of the wicked, the criminal, even punishment that involves "the sword." When a governmental "minister of God" enacts capital punishment upon a murderer, or serial killer, or serial rapist, or child molester, etc., it is not murder that happens but judicial killing, instituted by God Himself.
Now, an individual enacting such killing as a vigilante, separate from governmental authority, is a murderer.
The logical corollary to this, though, is that, if one is not morally-perfect, one cannot make any moral judgments, nor condemn what is evil. Such a standard would ensure that no one ever objected to evil of any kind since "there is none righteous, no, not one" (Romans 3:10). Obviously, this is not a biblical view at all.
Is this generally what happens, though? Increasingly, what appears to me to be going on is the exact opposite: Criminals are congregated together and encourage each other to greater evil. How often I've heard of "repeat offenders" who are not remediated by prison but made more criminal by prison culture!
Does the few who are improved by prison, justify the enormous violence and death committed by repeat offenders?
HI Riven
Man, give him a pass if your heart says you should. But to be fair, then you have to the same thing for all those in such a place.
Just to consider. Campaign promise to balance the budget. Campaign promise to pay down the debt. Campaign promise to repeal and replace the current ACA. Honestly, the wall didn't even make my list because he did it least try to do that. As far as I'm aware, except for one feeble attempt to repeal the ACA, I don't think he lifted a finger to work on any of these others that I've mentioned.
It'll be encouraging now to see you, when you write about him, to now use the same descriptors that you use for others who you feel haven't kept their campaign promises. Of course, that's only if you want to be fair. If you want to remain being a hypocrite about it, then continue on.
God bless,
Ted
So, is that the only failure you hold against him that he didn't do as one of his campaign promises?
Man, give him a pass if your heart says you should. But to be fair, then you have to the same thing for all those in such a place.
Just to consider. Campaign promise to balance the budget. Campaign promise to pay down the debt. Campaign promise to repeal and replace the current ACA. Honestly, the wall didn't even make my list because he did it least try to do that. As far as I'm aware, except for one feeble attempt to repeal the ACA, I don't think he lifted a finger to work on any of these others that I've mentioned.
It'll be encouraging now to see you, when you write about him, to now use the same descriptors that you use for others who you feel haven't kept their campaign promises. Of course, that's only if you want to be fair. If you want to remain being a hypocrite about it, then continue on.
God bless,
Ted
Hi again Riven
If I can be of any help to tell you about Jesus, please let me know. Either here or PM.
God bless,
Ted
My apologies. I had hovered over your name to see if you were a believer, because I thought I had seen you write that you weren't. But I saw the big street sign that points to heaven and hell, which I assumed meant you were a believer. Forgive me if you will for saying some of the things I said. I'm not supposed to judge unbelievers.
If I can be of any help to tell you about Jesus, please let me know. Either here or PM.
God bless,
Ted
Riven
Member
No. He failed to do a lot of what he said he was going to do.
I dont give him a pass. I call him and the republicans out on a regular basis. The thing is, if I called Trump a piece of trash, I doubt you'd have an issue with it. I call Biden what he is and you get upset.
Riven
Member
For God's sake, Ted. You don't need to apologize. I appreciate the offer though. I'm curious, why aren't you supposed to judge unbelievers?
Corn Pop
Member
Christians can judge but it has to be in a righteous judgement.
Some people use Matthew 7. "Dont judge or you will be judged"
If you read it in context Jesus says, take the log out your own eye first " hypocrite". Its talking about judging in hypocracy.
Or romans
"You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things".
Notice it says "you do these very same things". Thats judging others in hypocracy.
If someone is being crooked you can call them out but you dont flip out or hurl abuse at them.
“Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path.
“Don’t use foul or abusive language. Let everything you say be good and helpful, so that your words will be an encouragement to those who hear them.”
Judge in a correct judgement.
"..why are you angry with me for healing a man’s whole body on the Sabbath? Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.”
Leviticus
" Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord".
Im not sure what Paul is talking about here when he says expose the crooked. I think maybe he means just stay away from crooked and continue doing good godly works because good works alone expose the crooked. I guess its like basic example if someone is acting a fool being a full drunktard and someone else is being quiet and peaceful minding there own business, people can see whos being respectable and and whos a idiot.
Ephesians
"For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible"
Corn Pop
Member
Some people judge stupidly. Someone does something wrong and someone flips out over it and gets all angry at them.
Probably common with some oarants or teachers raising children, instead of sitting them down and gently and humbly helping them back onto the right path they raise there voices and get all angry.
Common a few years ago before they bought in the anti-smacking law labelling it child abuse, a chord whip around the buttocks was common, a wack with a big spoon. I nearly got the cane at school where the Principle wacked people with a stick a few times for stepping out of line everyone feared seeing that dude, it was kind of like sharia law lashes, that was in the early 80s.
I mean it did pump people with fear so kept most people in line, parents, teachers, principles were feared, but its not the correct path.
Probably common with some oarants or teachers raising children, instead of sitting them down and gently and humbly helping them back onto the right path they raise there voices and get all angry.
Common a few years ago before they bought in the anti-smacking law labelling it child abuse, a chord whip around the buttocks was common, a wack with a big spoon. I nearly got the cane at school where the Principle wacked people with a stick a few times for stepping out of line everyone feared seeing that dude, it was kind of like sharia law lashes, that was in the early 80s.
I mean it did pump people with fear so kept most people in line, parents, teachers, principles were feared, but its not the correct path.