[_ Old Earth _] What A Wonderful World

[John]

Taken from http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=114

Yeah yeah yeah, Dr.dino i don't have time for " he is a fraud" or "a lair" etc. besides this was written by Jordan Niednagel.

Here are some amazing animals, how does one explain how these evolved?. (continuation from my Man-o-war jellyfish and beaver.

If there's one thing we can all agree upon, it's that the world around us is a wonderful place; wonderful in terms of diversity, complexity, and sheer wonder, confounding our presuppositions, and often negating our preconceived ideas. We have so much to learn, even after millennias of habitation on this planet we call earth. Truly, we have scarcely seen the tip of the iceberg.

And the question still remains; how did we get here? How did life as we now know it come to be? Were we wisely fashioned by an all mighty creator, or are we the result of natural processes? Design, or chance? In this unique article, we simply will touch upon a few creatures of our world; creatures that, if nothing more, put modern technology to shame.

The Gecko

They walk across walls and ceiling as though gravity didn't exist. But how? For a long while, geckos defied all attempts to explain how they could cling to any surface with no visible sign of glue or suction cups. Then, when a group of biologists and engineers studied the microscopic hairs on the toes of geckos, the answer was found. The ends of the hairs directly attach to molecules in the surface by what is called van der Waals force, a type of attraction between atoms. According to a report in Nature, scientists concluded that engineering a structure like the foot of a gecko is "beyond the limits of human technology." However, they hope that the "natural technology of gecko foot-hairs can provide biological inspiration for future design of a remarkable effective adhesive."

How did the gecko develop its outstanding ability to climb? Were the hairs on its toes useless up until the time they were just right? Why haven't a host of other lizards developed such a beneficial ability?

The Bombardier Beetle

It's just a little bug, but it has an amazing talent. No more than three-quarters of an inch long, the bombardier beetle possesses, in a sense, its own bomb. Inside the body of this beetle are two special chambers that manufacture two chemicals, hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone. They are mixed together and sent to a storage chamber that is attached to a second chamber, appropriately called the explosion chamber, through a muscle that acts as a control valve. Inside this explosion chamber are a number of tiny extodermal glands that feed into it, adding an enzyme catalyst. Once this all takes place, a violent explosion ensues, being sent out a perfectly positioned tube at the rear of the beetle's body. Where does it then go? Quite frankly, into the enemies' face! The would-be predator is left choking in a hot, noxious smoke, while the beetle is left with enough time to quickly make a run for it. This amazing insect can even fire with tremendous accuracy in almost any direction necessary.

How did the bombardier beetle slowly evolve such a dangerous mechanism without obliterating itself into extinction? If the chemicals were not just the right strength or right ingredients, or if the control valve did not close when the explosion took place, think of the consequences. If the mechanism didn't work until fully formed, think of the extra baggage it would have been.


The HummingBird

Those who have taken the time to set a liquid feeder outside should be familiar with the incredible acrobatics of the hummingbird. They are the smallest birds in nature, weighing less than a tenth of an ounce, with some 300 different varieties worldwide. Hummingbirds can fly backwards, forwards and sideways, or can hover in midair like a helicopter. If there's one ability / trait that distinguishes hummingbirds from the rest of their feathered cousins, its their wing-flap speed. They can beat them at an incredible 80 strokes per second; so fast that the human can only view their wings as a frenzied blur. Equally incredible is their heart rate. Beating 1,000 times a minute, they inhale some 250 times in the same period of time. Because of this high metabolic rate, they must feed almost constantly. However, at night, all this changes. Hummingbirds don't sleep at night. Instead, they hibernate at night (except when the female is nesting). During this hibernation, the entire body slows down and the temperature drops to conserve energy. An amazing feat, one without which the hummingbird could not survive.

How did the hummingbird develop into such a high-metabolic bird? Why are there not many other birds similar to it? What fossils do we have that show its gradual development into what we know them as today?


The Giraffe

What can compare to the unique design of the giraffe? Reaching 18 feet or more in height, the giraffe has one of the largest hearts in the animal kingdom, with nearly double the blood pressure of any creature. Indeed, when you observe the uphill climb that the blood must make to reach the top, you can see why so much pressure is needed. But what about when the giraffe lowers its head? Doesn't the blood rush to the brain with such tremendous force that it would kill the giraffe? Surely, you know how it is when you have been leaning over for awhile, and then suddenly stand up straight to feel sickeningly dizzy. How does the giraffe avoid this problem? Amazingly, the jugular blood vessels in its neck have a series of one-way check valves that hold back the blood from flowing to the brain when it lowers its head. Then, when the giraffe lifts its head again, it prevents the blood from flowing away from the brain too quickly. Also, at the base of the brain is a network of spongy tissue that soaks up any excess blood. Truly, an astounding example of plumbing technology.

How did the giraffe slowly develop such a brain structure that would allow it to raise and lower its head without any problems? If they are the result of millions of years of evolution, wherein they grew longer and longer necks overtime in order to eat from the trees, why aren't there hundreds of other animals with such necks?


The Seahorse

They're a fish, but they don't look like a fish. As their name indicates, they look like a horse. Swimming vertically, they even "ride" like a horse. Strangest of all, the male seahorse gives "birth" to the babies! Course, the eggs originally come from the female, but she actually deposits the several thousand eggs at a time into the abdominal pouch of the male where they are later fertilized. After that, she leaves and from that time on has nothing to do with either her eggs or her mate. The faithful male, however, protects the eggs in his pouch, and when they finally hatch, he secretes a nourishing fluid that the babies feed on. About two weeks later, he "gives birth" to the thousands of miniature seahorses, who are then, for better or for worse, left completely on their own.

How did male seahorses ever evolve from non-pouch to pouch? Why would they ever develop a pouch in the first place? How did the eggs survive before the male ever developed a pouch, and who convinced the male to watch over the eggs once the pouch was developed?

The Platypus

Inhabiting Tasmania and southern and eastern Australia, the peculiar platypus sports a duck-like bill roughly 2.5 inches long and 2 inches wide. Inside this leathery snout are sophisticated electronic sensors that it uses to detect prey, such as shrimp, worms, and shellfish. This incredible "detector" actually senses the faint electric waves produced by these smaller creatures, where it then becomes only a matter of seconds until the platypus finds itself a meal. Stranger still is that, although the platypus is classified as a mammal, it lays eggs! As if that weren't enough, it is also venomous. Males possess a poison gland in the hind leg that opens through a bony spur on the ankle. The spur is used to defend against predators and possibly to defend its territory.

If the platypus developed from some type of rat millions of years ago, how did its fleshy snout develop into a leather bill? How did the electric sensors evolve where none existed before? And why do they lay eggs? Why don't many other mammals lay eggs?

Conclusion

These are questions that some can imagine answers to, but such answers remain just that . . . imagination. An Englishman by the name of William Paley wrote nearly two centuries ago in his book, titled Natural Theology, that design requires a Master Designer. If someone found a pocket watch, he said, lying on the ground, he would reach the conclusion that it had been designed by a watchmaker. The order and design of the natural world, Paley reasoned, also points to the existence of an omnipotent Creator Designer.

As always, we don't make the conclusion, but leave the conclusion up to you.

 

[Barbarian]

Ah, shotgun time again. "Throw 'em all up, Ezra. See if any of them stick."

Let's see... so little time, so many silly claims...

OK... here's one of my favorite Hovind scams.. "The Bomardier Beetle"

It's just a little bug, but it has an amazing talent. No more than three-quarters of an inch long, the bombardier beetle possesses, in a sense, its own bomb.

No. "Bombardier" is a figure of speech. Nothing blows up.

Inside the body of this beetle are two special chambers that manufacture two chemicals, hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone. They are mixed together and sent to a storage chamber that is attached to a second chamber, appropriately called the explosion chamber, through a muscle that acts as a control valve. Inside this explosion chamber are a number of tiny extodermal glands that feed into it, adding an enzyme catalyst. Once this all takes place, a violent explosion ensues,

No, but the material does heat up and squirt out of the gland. No "violent explosion."

being sent out a perfectly positioned tube at the rear of the beetle's body. Where does it then go? Quite frankly, into the enemies' face! The would-be predator is left choking in a hot, noxious smoke, while the beetle is left with enough time to quickly make a run for it. This amazing insect can even fire with tremendous accuracy in almost any direction necessary.

Actually, one of them can. Most species of bombardier beetles can't aim; they just have to position their body. It turns out that there are all sorts of these beetles, some more evolved than others.

How did the bombardier beetle slowly evolve such a dangerous mechanism without obliterating itself into extinction?

Here's one way:

This is an argument from incredulity. It is based in part on an inaccurate description of how the beetle's bombardier mechanism works, but even then the argument rests solely on the lack of even looking for evidence. In fact, an evolutionary pathway that accounts for the bombardier beetle is not hard to come up with (Isaak 1997). One plausible sequence (much abbreviated) is thus:

1. Insects produce quinones for tanning their cuticle. Quinones make them distasteful, so the insects evolve to produce more of them and to produce other defensive chemicals, including hydroquinones.

2. The insects evolve depressions for storing quinones and muscles for ejecting them onto their surface when threatened with being eaten. The depression becomes a reservoir with secretory glands supplying hydroquinones into it. This configuration exists in many beetles, including close relatives of bombardier beetles (Forsyth 1970)

3. Hydrogen peroxide becomes mixed with the hydroquinones. Catalases and peroxidases appear along the output passage of the reservoir, ensuring that more quinones appear in the exuded product.

4. More catalases and peroxidases are produced, generating oxygen and producing a foamy discharge, as in the bombardier beetle Metrius contractus (Eisner et al. 2000).
5. As the output passage becomes a hardened reaction chamber, still more catalases and peroxidases are produced, gradually becoming today's bombardier beetles.

All of the steps are small or can be easily broken down into smaller ones, and all are probably selectively advantageous. Several of the intermediate stages are known to be viable by the fact that they exist in other living species.
Talk.origins archive

If the mechanism didn't work until fully formed, think of the extra baggage it would have been.

Turns out that the intermediate steps are useful, and some still exist in related species. That was easy. Let's try another one...

 

[Barbarian]

Reaching 18 feet or more in height, the giraffe has one of the largest hearts in the animal kingdom,

And it's one of the biggest animals. Go figure.

with nearly double the blood pressure of any creature. Indeed, when you observe the uphill climb that the blood must make to reach the top, you can see why so much pressure is needed. But what about when the giraffe lowers its head? Doesn't the blood rush to the brain with such tremendous force that it would kill the giraffe? Surely, you know how it is when you have been leaning over for awhile, and then suddenly stand up straight to feel sickeningly dizzy. How does the giraffe avoid this problem? Amazingly, the jugular blood vessels in its neck have a series of one-way check valves that hold back the blood from flowing to the brain when it lowers its head.

You have them, too. But not nearly as robust as in giraffes. They are not surprisingly, most prominent in the veins, which don't have as much pressure moving them along. All mammals have them.

Then, when the giraffe lifts its head again, it prevents the blood from flowing away from the brain too quickly. Also, at the base of the brain is a network of spongy tissue that soaks up any excess blood.

It's called a "rete", and most hoofed mammals have them. Just not as robust. In most, they are used for cooling, but in the giraffe, it is adapted to maintain flow pressure. Are you starting to get the picture?

How did the giraffe slowly develop such a brain structure that would allow it to raise and lower its head without any problems?

Gradual evolution. Fossil giraffes had much shorter necks relative to body size, and giraffoids even less so. The most primitive known giraffoid is the pronghorn antelope. It has a neck only a little longer than those of most deer. The Okapi is another living giraffoid, and it is considerably larger than a pronghorn and has a neck relatively much longer. Fossil giraffes, such as Sivatherium were much larger, and had very elongnated necks, but less than modern giraffes. So, as evolution made giraffes larger and larger, allometry seems to have made the necks relatively longer. And because it had a lot of time, and happened gradually, the heart and blood vessels had time to become more robust by natural selection.

If they are the result of millions of years of evolution, wherein they grew longer and longer necks overtime in order to eat from the trees,

Actually, that's not why they do it. Giraffes tend to browse at lower levels, not high ones. It seems to just have been a consequence of allometric growth, and eventually, became long enough to be useful for vision and then as a potent weapon.

why aren't there hundreds of other animals with such necks?

Probably because the intermediate stages aren't particularly useful. It was just by chance that allometry developed in this one. But then natural selection eventually co-opted the process.

That one was pretty easy, too.

 

[John]

 

[Barbarian]

Inhabiting Tasmania and southern and eastern Australia, the peculiar platypus sports a duck-like bill roughly 2.5 inches long and 2 inches wide.

It's not remotely duck-like. It got the duck-bill designation, because the first ones seen in Europe were dried pelts, with the snout shriveled and hard like the bill of a duck. It more closely resembles the bills of some extinct reptiles, being soft tissue, unlike the horny bill of birds.

This incredible "detector" actually senses the faint electric waves produced by these smaller creatures, where it then becomes only a matter of seconds until the platypus finds itself a meal. Stranger still is that, although the platypus is classified as a mammal, it lays eggs!

Reptilian eggs, in fact. But since the monotremes are intermediate between therapsid reptiles and eutherian mammals, that's what you would expect. It also has the reptilian shoulder girdle, a cloaca, and a rather poor ability to maintain a constant temperature. Pretty much what you'd expect in such an intermediate.

As if that weren't enough, it is also venomous. Males possess a poison gland in the hind leg that opens through a bony spur on the ankle. The spur is used to defend against predators and possibly to defend its territory.

Some shrews have poison, too. It probably existed in a number of other primitive mammals.

If the platypus developed from some type of rat millions of years ago, how did its fleshy snout develop into a leather bill?

It evolved from therapsid reptiles, which it rather closely resembles in many ways. And the bill is soft, not hard.

How did the electric sensors evolve where none existed before?

Many aquatic animals have such sensors. In water, such a sense becomes useful. So you see it in fish, aquatic reptiles, and in at least one aquatic mammal.

And why do they lay eggs?

Primitive reptilian characteristic. Which is what you'd expect for an intermediate.

Why don't many other mammals lay eggs?

Why don't some reptiles lay eggs? Live birth has selective advantages in some situations. As you see, the platypus is a really good example of a transition between reptiles and mammals.

 

[Barbarian]

Conclusion

These are questions that some can imagine answers to, but such answers remain just that . . . imagination.

Turns out,as you just learned that there is an abundance of evidence for the evolution of these organisms. The biggest danger of a "God of the Gaps" theology is that the gaps might just be in your mind, as they were this time.

An Englishman by the name of William Paley wrote nearly two centuries ago in his book, titled Natural Theology, that design requires a Master Designer. If someone found a pocket watch, he said, lying on the ground, he would reach the conclusion that it had been designed by a watchmaker.

Good example. Paley used a man-made artifact to illustrate design, because he knew that if he had used a natural object, no one would have seen any design in it.

And that's the real lesson from his example. Turn out that God knew what He was doing; engineers are now using evolution to solve problems that can't be done by design.

God 1, Paley 0.

 

[John]

engineers are now using evolution to solve problems that can't be done by design.

Design simply tells us how we came to be, outside of that man works in biology to figure out many different things, stuff like the micro world, diseases, viruses, adaptation in animals etc etc, but like i said adaptation is a wonderful thing God installed in all things, but it has its limits and all of the above examples are great to show the wonders of Gods design.

So good attempt at using the wondrous imagination that God designed in you, but assuming that the above creatures came from a microbe is rather weak with no evidence at all.

 

[Barbarian]

Design simply tells us how we came to be,

Nope. ID is just a new religion.

So good attempt at using the wondrous imagination that God designed in you, but assuming that the above creatures came from a microbe is rather weak with no evidence at all.

Turns out that DNA analysis, conserved molecules, fossil record, and many other sources of information confirm common descent. Would you like to learn how?

 

[John]

Turns out that DNA analysis, conserved molecules, fossil record, and many other sources of information confirm common descent. Would you like to learn how?

DNA proves Design.

My knowledge on conserved molecules is weak.

Fossil record never counted.

 

[freeway]

[attachment=0:e1a67]horseshoe crab....jpg[/attachment:e1a67]

Evolution changes over time! like millions and millions of years ! We've been told over and over, but yet one of the "oldest know" living fossil has not hardly changed at all... Funny how man "evolved" from who knows what, to an upright computer punching fool. But a lowly crab has not changed at all. Who? is it thats to blind to see the obvious. Yes God has given his creation the room to adapt, but never to change into a complete new and different species...written in your DNA code......... evolution has done, or I should say not done the same thing with flies, dragonflies, scorpions, and countless others, lets just say every know living creature we see today.. like I've said and every other true Christian.... where's the missing fossils..... I know! their rushing them to a museum near you right now.................not
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 135801.htm
http://www.darwinismrefuted.com/natural ... _2_10.html

 

[Barbarian]

Evolution changes over time!

More correctly, evolution is a change in allele frequency over time.

like millions and millions of years ! We've been told over and over, but yet one of the "oldest know" living fossil has not hardly changed at all...

Actually, the modern species is unknown in the fossil record, although there are somewhat similar fossils.

While there are only three extant genera and five extant species of Class Xiphosura, they were quite diverse during the Palaeozoic Era. Because they have apparently undergone little change, the extant horseshoe crabs are often considered to be living fossils. Horse shoe crabs have a large shield that covers the cephalothorax, and the carapace is hinged between the cephalothorax and abdomen. The sturdy exoskeleton comprises three parts, the large semicircular cephalothorax, the opisthosoma which is the posterior portion of body behind the cephalothorax, and a long tail spine or telson. The resemblance to trilobites is apparent, and, in fact, the Xiphosura are considered by many to be the closest living relatives of the long-extinct trilobites.

So macroevolution has also happened to horseshoe crabs over that time, but not nearly as much as it has happened to most other lines. Why is this so?

Evolutionary theory does not predict that everything must evolve. In fact, for well-adapted organisms like the horseshoe crab, in an environment with stable selective pressures, evolutionary theory predicts that natural selection will prevent much evolution. This is called "stablizing" selection, and is one of the reasons punctutated equillibrium works.

Funny how man "evolved" from who knows what, to an upright computer punching fool. But a lowly crab has not changed at all.

Not surprisingly the emergence of man coincides with the pleistocene, with dryer, colder climate, and shrinking forests with growing grasslands. Large primates could either retreat with the forests and become better at exploiting what was left, or adapting to the savanna. The ancestors of modern apes chose the former, and the ancestors of humans, oropithecus and baboons chose the latter.

Those moving onto the savanna underwent rapid evolution. Those remaining in the old environment did not. For reasons which should now be obvious to you.

Who? is it thats to blind to see the obvious. Yes God has given his creation the room to adapt, but never to change into a complete new and different species...

It's been directly observed. Want to learn about it?

like I've said and every other true Christian....

If you were a true Christian, you would not be adding your own doctrines to the faith.

where's the missing fossils..... I know! their rushing them to a museum near you right now.................not

Well, let's test your new doctrine. Name me two major groups said to be evolutionarily connected, and we'll see if I can find a transitional. Do you have enough faith to test your belief?

 

[John]

A true Christian is not governed by whether or not he/she believes in evolution, but it would seem that they do not trust,believe,understand many things about what God has told them, and this simply confuses me why one would "cherry pick" scriptures. In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth in 6 days, simple.

 

[jmm9683]

A true Christian is not governed by whether or not he/she believes in evolution, but it would seem that they do not trust,believe,understand many things about what God has told them, and this simply confuses me why one would "cherry pick" scriptures. In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth in 6 days, simple.

Yet all of the evidence does not lead to the heavens and earth being formed in 6 literal days. Nothing supports that, not one branch of science. The only options you have if you are grounded in reality, is that it's allegorical or incorrect. Pick one.

 

[John]

You don't make the rules.

Only becuase science has been defined to rule out the supernatural, I.E God.

You (lie others) place God in a box, what are you? a feeble human, how can you tell me if there is a God or not.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

And your wrong there evidence has been found but interpreted wrong by non-Christian scientists working on a faulty premise...i'd rather not run in circles anymore.

 

[Barbarian]

You don't make the rules.

Neither do you. God makes the rules. And trying to adjust them to your liking is a bad idea.

Only becuase science has been defined to rule out the supernatural, I.E God.

By whom? Scientists will tell you that science can neither verify nor rule out God.

You need to let Him be God and accept that He did it right, as He intended.

 

[John]

Neither do you. God makes the rules. And trying to adjust them to your liking is a bad idea.

I am not adjusting, you are, i read them as they are written, you try to bend them to support evolution.

By whom? Scientists will tell you that science can neither verify nor rule out God.

But are tirelessly working to find evidence to remove him.. I.E Richard dawkins.

Big bang
Evolution
Uniformatariaism
Abiogenis (miller experiment) etc
Atheism
etc

You need to let Him be God and accept that He did it right, as He intended.

I do.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Neither do you. God makes the rules. And trying to adjust them to your liking is a bad idea.

I am not adjusting, you are, i read them as they are written, you try to bend them to support evolution.

You told us that the Bible says that organisms reproduce after their own kind, and as you learned it didn't say that at all.

You claimed, against the testimony of Jesus, that God has a body.

Barbarian asks:
By whom? Scientists will tell you that science can neither verify nor rule out God.

But are tirelessly working to find evidence to remove him.. I.E Richard dawkins.

That's just silly. Scientists know that evidence can't refute or confirm God. And Dawkins has admitted that science can't do it.

Big bang

Consistent with Christian belief.

Evolution

Consistent with Christian belief. Most Americans admit that evolution is true, and think God is behind it.

Uniformatariaism

Consistent with Christian beliefs. The men who established the theory were Christian creationists.

Abiogenis (miller experiment) etc

Confirms God's word in Genesis. The Earth brought forth life.

Atheism

Sorry. Not part of science. That's why Christians and people of all other faiths can do science.

Barbarian observes:
You need to let Him be God and accept that He did it right, as He intended.

I do.

Your pride won't let you accept His creation right now. Hopefully, you will come to terms with Him and accept it.

 

[John]

You seem like a smart person, but i am afraid all this running in circles is not beneficial to ones health.

Every thing above is a Cop out, your bending scripture to squeeze in secular teachings when they clearly don't belong, God said he created everything in 6 days, this means:

Big bang theory is garbage
Not enough time for evolution (Macro) to take place.
Miller was wrong
Uniformatariaism, the present is not the key to the past.
etc

Since we seem to be talking about the Bible in literalness, the first few chapters of Genesis must be how God did it, and if you say other wise your a hypocrite, stop bending scripture its not good for you.

 

[jmm9683]

You don't make the rules.

Only becuase science has been defined to rule out the supernatural, I.E God.

You (lie others) place God in a box, what are you? a feeble human, how can you tell me if there is a God or not.

John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

And your wrong there evidence has been found but interpreted wrong by non-Christian scientists working on a faulty premise...i'd rather not run in circles anymore.

The evidence does not point to the earth being formed in 6 literal days no matter how much you want it to. Every scientist is not interpreting the information wrong, that is the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. Independent sources from around the world all come to the same conclusion. Either keep being delusional or accept reality like the rest of us. Isn't it amazing that the only people that disagree with modern science (actually just the parts of science that don't fit their twisted view) are the fundamentalists from every major religion.

 

[John]

What about the time dilation effect?