What about the Ministration of Death gives life?

[Eugene]

What is there about the Ministration of Death that gives life? 2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones . . . Oh no, is that the Ten Commandments, and I do mean all ten?

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Which of the ten Commandments did He keep?

 

[jasoncran]

the ten are the basics of that but I believe its all 613, while most of them are no longer able to be done since theres no temple for the jews nor priests and also the enemies of isreal listed are gone.

 

[Eugene]

the ten are the basics of that but I believe its all 613, while most of them are no longer able to be done since theres no temple for the jews nor priests and also the enemies of isreal listed are gone.

I agree Brother Jason, but even if there were a temple existing it could and would not give life. There is none other name (sacrifice, trying to be good, or works) given among men than the name of Jesus and our receiving of Him and His sacrifice for us that can give life.

Then after we are in Christ can we, or do we want to turn again to those beggarly elements of the law to retain our new life in Christ? Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Obadiah]

I don't think 2nd Cor 3:10 is saying we are saved today through perfectly obeying Jewish law by the reference to the 10 commandments (which I agree is symbolic for the entire OT law, not just those 10). This is confirmed with the Galatians verses you quoted. I believe 2nd Cor 3 is saying that salvation through the grace of Christ is much preferable to trying to be saved through perfect obedience to the law. That doesn't mean grace is a license to sin, just that our salvation doesn't come through perfect obedience to the law.

 

[Eugene]

I don't think 2nd Cor 3:10 is saying we are saved today through perfectly obeying Jewish law by the reference to the 10 commandments (which I agree is symbolic for the entire OT law, not just those 10). This is confirmed with the Galatians verses you quoted. I believe 2nd Cor 3 is saying that salvation through the grace of Christ is much preferable to trying to be saved through perfect obedience to the law. That doesn't mean grace is a license to sin, just that our salvation doesn't come through perfect obedience to the law.

That seems to be a surety because there is none that ever kept any part of the law, or Jesus would not have had to die. The law is one exemplified by James 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Another example is the certain young ruler of Luke 18:18. Oh I have kept all the law from my youth up in Luke 18:21, but in Luke 18:22 Jesus says he lacked one thing which always occurs when the ministration of death is concerned; its very purpose is to reveal death as its accusation. Young ruler, you’re dead; do something about it and follow ME.

Thanks and blessings Obadiah.

 

[jasoncran]

if he was greedy its not like he didn't covet. he may not have taken in something but he did covet.i know that jews talk about the hands and the heart being the means whereby evil or good is done.

 

[Eugene]

if he was greedy its not like he didn't covet. he may not have taken in something but he did covet.i know that jews talk about the hands and the heart being the means whereby evil or good is done.

That sounds as something out of the Talmud. I have no idea the stimulus of the ruler but regardless the incentive, he desired something at the works of his own hands; something impossible in the flesh. What Jesus was telling him is that to inherit that which he coveted took the cross; give up all. The ruler had an impossible dream, and an impractical means of obtaining it.

Thanks Jason - Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

no tis imho. if he was that holy is heart would be pure. jesus knew that no man can be that way. Christians often take that bible verse to mean that the ruler was that holy when the lord really said he. that is the torah working btw. if I never murdered and it would be sin. why then would the book of proverbs have this?

as a man thinketh in his heart so is he? god also judged men in the flood for what? continually doing evil and thinking it!

 

[TOG]

The law was not meant to give us eternal life, but to tell us how to live our lives according to God's will.

As for the "beggarly elements" in Galatians, they were not God's law. The Galatians were Gentiles, and had never lived under God's law. How could they then turn back to it? It's obvious that it's referring to something else they had as Pagans before they were saved that they were turning back to.

The TOG​

 

[Sinthesis]

The Judaizers were coming in behind the Gospel, insisting those Gentiles who now followed Jesus must supplement their faith in Christ with the beggarly elements of Moses' Law, which were previously exclusive to the Jews.

 

[Eugene]

The law was not meant to give us eternal life, but to tell us how to live our lives according to God's will.

As for the "beggarly elements" in Galatians, they were not God's law. The Galatians were Gentiles, and had never lived under God's law. How could they then turn back to it? It's obvious that it's referring to something else they had as Pagans before they were saved that they were turning back to.

The TOG​

I don't see that at all. Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law (Pagan law?), that we might receive the adoption of sons. There seems to be a decided turn from the law; that ministration of death unto grace. And Gal 4:25 For this Agar (an allegory of the them under law) is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. Bondage to something to tell us how to live our lives?

In Christ Jesus.

 

[TOG]

beggarly
adjective

1. like or befitting a beggar
2. meanly inadequate: How does he manage on such a beggarly salary?

(Source: Random House Dictionary)

Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! (Matt. 7:9-11 ESV)​

People misunderstand the term "law of Moses". It's not the law Moses gave, but the law God gave through Moses. Moses didn't give a single commandment. They are all from God, and God has never given us anything that can be described as "beggarly".

The TOG​

 

[th1b.taylor]

There are ten commandments with 603 examples of thier implementation, no more no less, ten.

No human has ever been saved by the Law but the Mosaic Law does foreshadow the advent of Jesus, the Christ by demonstrating our hopeless estate. I am often lied on for teaching the Ten Commandments and yes, I said people claiming the Christ as their Saviour lied.

We are not bound by the Law, neither was the Jew. For God to expect a man to compete the Law, He had to send His Son to do it for us. But folks, please read Paul, the only disciple to be seated, one on one at the feet of Jesus for three years. (Gal. 1:15-18 and again in the Acts) in Gal. 3:24-26 we see that the Lost, without knowing it are bound to that Law and if we, the believers by faith, trash the number one too for them to know their sin, do we serve the Great Commission?

 

[Eugene]

beggarly
adjective

1. like or befitting a beggar
2. meanly inadequate: How does he manage on such a beggarly salary?

(Source: Random House Dictionary)

Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! (Matt. 7:9-11 ESV)​

People misunderstand the term "law of Moses". It's not the law Moses gave, but the law God gave through Moses. Moses didn't give a single commandment. They are all from God, and God has never given us anything that can be described as "beggarly".

The TOG​

Brother TOG, we can attempt to make the law something else than what God calls it, and it remains 2 Cor 3:7 “. . the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones.” Abraham didn’t have it, the Gentiles didn’t, and the church doesn’t.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we (Who is Paul talking to as "We"?) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

2 Cor 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation (What is this?) be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2 Cor 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2 Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away (What is this?) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

In Christ Jesus.

 

[Eugene]

We are not bound by the Law, neither was the Jew. For God to expect a man to compete the Law, He had to send His Son to do it for us. But folks, please read Paul, the only disciple to be seated, one on one at the feet of Jesus for three years. (Gal. 1:15-18 and again in the Acts) in Gal. 3:24-26 we see that the Lost, without knowing it are bound to that Law and if we, the believers by faith, trash the number one too for them to know their sin, do we serve the Great Commission?

Hey Brother Bill. The law has purpose and if used as the Holy Spirit does it reproves the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment; the law can only condemn for none keep it. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death (That ministration of death). The closest we come is allowing God to satisfy the righteousness of the law in us (Not by us) according to Rom 8:4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Blessings

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hey Brother Bill. The law has purpose and if used as the Holy Spirit does it reproves the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment; the law can only condemn for none keep it. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death (That ministration of death). The closest we come is allowing God to satisfy the righteousness of the law in us (Not by us) according to Rom 8:4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Blessings

Agreed, that is another way of saying, much of, what I said but your statement tends to omit concern for worms like myself when I was on the stage and we must never, never forget our mission and hold up inside the walls of the Church.

May God bless.

 

[mondar]

Eugene is correct in that the Law is a ministration of death, but one must be cautious not to take that too far. Romans 7 also speaks of the place of the Law.
The Law is a ministration unto death... Romans 7:10 "and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death:"
On the other hand,
The Law is not sin--- Romans 7:7a " What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid."
The Law is holy --- Romans 7:12 "12 So that the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good."

So then, the question is this... since the law is not sin, and it is holy, righteous, and good, how can it lead to death.

The answer is found in verses 8-9
8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead.

9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;
Apart from the Law, sin is dead. Romans 6 speaks of the death of the old man (Rm 6:6), and that is the death of sin. Romans 7 makes it clear that even though sin is dead, we can revive sin by going to the Law for sanctification. This then brings sin in the flesh alive and we die.

In sanctification, the person being sanctified keeps the law, but the person keeping the law is not being sanctified, but he is dead. Keeping the law is not the means of sanctification, but the result of sanctification. The one who keeps the law as a means of sanctification will die spiritually.

So then, Eugene was correct in Galatians, the Law is a minister of death. But it is also true that the Law is holy, righteous, and good, and it is not sin.

 

[Eugene]

The Law is a minister of death. But it is also true that the Law is holy, righteous, and good, and it is not sin.

Amen and thanks for your input.

 

[TOG]

Keeping the law is not the means of sanctification, but the result of sanctification.

Precisely what I said (or at least tried to say). We do not keep the law to be saved, but because we are saved. It was not given to us to bring salvation, but show us how to live after we are saved.

The TOG​

 

[Eugene]

It was not given to us to bring salvation, but show us how to live after we are saved.

How do you reconcile that wth Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Thanks.