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Bible Study What do the Scriptures teach about the Heresy of Open Theism

S

Solo

Guest
I would like to start this study with an article which defines Open Theism is and what it's effects are on the body of believers and those seeking God in their lives. With heresies such as Open Theism afloat, many are taken captive by the lies that are unscriptural, and should be stood up against for the sake of those who would otherwise be taken into bondage were it not for the truth contained in the scriptures.

Open Theism is a relatively recent doctrine with its origin attributed mainly to Clark Pinnock around 1980 and recently to Dr. Greg Boyd, professor of theology at Bethel College, the educational arm of the Baptist General Conference. The doctrine has as its primary goal, a redefinition of the nature and character of God. Its foundational principle, which allows God to be redefined in numerous ways, is the proposition that God cannot know the future, because the future has not yet occurred and is therefore unknowable. From this premise it is stated that God can still predict certain events in the future and make plans for the future, since He has certain abilities to know how man operates and thinks, but since He cannot know what the future choice of man will actually be, the reality is that He cannot know with certainty what the future will bring or whether He will be able to accomplish the plans that He has made. In this theology, God is a victim of time, being confined to the present, and also a captive of, and subject to, the decisions of man. Because of His deficiencies in knowledge, God does not always do the right thing or make the right decision and is capable of causing unwaranted pain and suffering in the lives of individuals. The God of Open Theism is not sovereign, not perfect, can and does make mistakes, as a result of imperfect knowledge, for which He apologizes and regrets.

The fundamental flaw in the theology is also its basic claim, that God cannot know the future. When the foundation is defective, then the doctrine derived from that foundation is defective also. Open Theism defines God within the confines of the existing material universe in which man lives, but which God created. The assumption is made that God does not exist outside of this material universe, but He exists within, and is subject to, His own creation rather than the creation being subject to Him. It is also assumed that there are God-created entities that have greater authority than the God who created them. It was God who created the element of time in relation to this universe, to which the life and existence of all proponents of Open Theism must submit. It is the Open Theist who cannot know the future because they are subject to the properties and boundaries of the universe established by God.

The proponents of Open Theism would presume that the element of time, although created by God, somehow exerts a superior power over His ability to know, by restricting his knowledge through the means of confining Him to a literal present state of being, within a finite creation. By this view, the proponents of Open Theism deny the unlimited power of God to know the beginning from the end and fail to understand the statement of God in Exodus 3:14, "I Am Who I Am." It is God who is, standing always in the present, transcending the boundaries of time itself. Rather than God being subject to the present state of time, it is time itself that is subject to the eternal present state of God, who is past, present and future all at the same time and who sees the beginning through the end always in the present. The Open Theist does not consider the fact that time is a transient entity, having a beginning and ending subject to the good pleasure of God.

This universe and time, from their beginning to end, are encompassed by the unknowable and incomprehensible power and majesty of God who created all and continues to uphold all by His power. It escapes the reasoning of the Open Theist that God is greater than this universe and its limitations, and is greater than their ability to define and understand the God who was and is, even when this universe had not been created. By what measure was God's knowledge limited prior to His creation of the universe and time? How is it that God becomes a servant to His own created entities? Time itself is a subjective entity even in this material universe. Time at one place can be different from that in another; to the person traveling in space at light speed, time may even stand still for them, while the rest of the universe continues to age at what appears to be a frantic pace.

Was God constrained by some law greater than Himself to make the measure of time as it appears? Could he not have changed that measure, so that what now appears as a year could be a fraction of a second or a million years? How is the infinite God limited to the finite boundaries of His own creation? God has created a universe at His good pleasure and He can and will change that universe at His good pleasure, including the fabric of time itself. God is the sovereign ruler of all that is known and all that is unknown, in this universe and whatever infinitude of spheres in which He exists. He created the universe out of nothing, by His power and He upholds its operation by His power. God created time by His power, and He determines whether it continues or ceases by His power.

The open theist engages in a myopic, self-centered delusion by believing that their thoughts and subsequent decisions have the power to change the course of God's determined will. The universe in which the open theist exists, and its consequent inclusion of time, is but an infinitesimal speck, itself confined, hidden and lost within the majesty and infinity of the God who is "I Am."

The hidden agenda of Open Theism is apparent, because it is opening the door for a unification of what are now many divergent beliefs. Open Theism can embrace the Mormon church, which is desperately seeking to appear to be mainstream Christianity, and its concept of God who is imperfect and continually in a state of learning. Recently, Gordon Hinckley, Prophet and President of the Mormon church, has equivocated on the historic Mormon doctine that man can become a god. Consequently, their teaching that the god of this universe was once a man, might eventually be placed in their archives of convenient forgetfulness, opening the way to a connection with mainstream Christianity. The Positive Confession, Word of Faith proponents, such as Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland, who claim that words and faith have superior power over the will of God and can control the actions of God, and many, many groups holding to Arminian theology in which God is subject to the choice of man, could easily embrace Open Theism with only minor adjustments. With the charismatic experince having already united many Protestant and Catholic groups, the meeting of the charismatic (which is exclusively Arminian in theology) and Open Theistic theologies could further bring about a unity of unprecedented magnitude. To be mainstream is not necessarily to adopt a biblical foundation, and in most cases that is the case. Unity can always be achieved by adopting the lowest common denominator which, in the majority of cases, is to deny the absolute sovereignty of God. Although masquerading under the cloak of historic protestant orthodox belief, Open Theism is a very sinister and deceitful heresy of the highest magnitude.


Retrieved from http://www.ondoctrine.com/20openth.htm
 
The first Scripture that I would like to look at will be Isaiah 40:

Read the following Scripture and I will be back with comments once I see the readership is sufficient. Pray for God to lead you into His truth and to protect you from the lies of the enemy, whether from me or others, in the name of Jesus Christ.


ISAIAH 40:1-31
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1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
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2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
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3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
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4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
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5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
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6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
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7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
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8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
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9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
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10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
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11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
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12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?
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13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?
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14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
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15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
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16 And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering.
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17 All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
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18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?
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19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains.
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20 He that is so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree that will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, that shall not be moved.
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21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
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22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
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23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
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24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
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25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
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26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
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27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?
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28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
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29 He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
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30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
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31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
 
The Book of Isaiah was written by the Prophet Isaiah in the eighty century BC between 740 and 700.

The Hebrew name of the Prophet Isaiah is Yesa-Yahu, which means, Yahweh is Salvation. The basic theme of Isaiah's message is that salvation is given to man only by grace, by the power of God, the Redeemer, rather than by the strength of man or the good works of the flesh.

Notice in Isaiah 40:1-2 the LORD God is expressing comfort to His people, to Jerusalem, that her warfare is accomplished, and that her iniquity is pardoned; after her having received the LORD's chastisement for all her sins. Verse 3 is the prophesy of the Messiah being in the world to redeem the people from their sins.



STUDY OF ISAIAH 40:1-31 beginning with verses 1-5
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1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
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2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
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3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
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God through Isaiah is prophesying of the future when John the Baptist would be crying in the wilderness preparing the way of the LORD, making straight the path of our God in the wilderness. Notice the fulfillment of this prophesy 700 to 770 years after God spoke through Isaiah as recorded in the four Gospels:
  • 1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Matthew 3:1-3 (Read also Mark 1:1-3, Luke 3:1-4, and John 3:1-6)
The LORD God (JEHOVAH GOD) knew the salvation that he would bestow upon mankind through the Christ whom John the Baptist prepared the way before Him. Not only did LORD GOD foreknow that John the Baptist would be preparing the way before Him, this prophesy occurred exactly how and when LORD God determined.

Notice verses 4 and 5 where nothing in the physical realm will oppose the truth from occurring as the path is prepared for the LORD God by John the Baptist, whereby the GLORY of the LORD was to be revealed (future tense), and all flesh will see it together.



4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
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5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
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What does verses 4 & 5 signify? Let us read Luke 3:3-6:
  • 3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; 4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
The obstacles that are before mankind to achieve fellowship and sonship with the creator LORD God will be removed and all eyes will be able to see the GLORY of the LORD GOD as HE is revealed, the SALVATION OF GOD in JESUS CHRIST.

The comfort that Isaiah is prophesying of is the foundation that was laid before the foundation of the world, that cornerstone which is JESUS CHRIST being the SALVATION OF GOD.


God foreknew before the world was created that JESUS CHRIST would be sacrificed for the sin of Adam that would extend throughout the entire world.
  • 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Isaiah 28:16

    18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:18-21
We will continue with verse 6 in the next couple of days.

God bless each of you and may He give each of you His wisdom and understanding.
 
Solo
Correct me if I am wrong.

Open theism is a belief that God does not know the future correct. It seems like people who believe in this faulty theology believe that Gods will can be changed.

To believe and be an open thiest requires no or very little faith in God, because we have a large part in determining our destiny correct.

Please correct me if I am wrong
 
oscar3 said:
Solo
Correct me if I am wrong.

Open theism is a belief that God does not know the future correct. It seems like people who believe in this faulty theology believe that Gods will can be changed.

To believe and be an open thiest requires no or very little faith in God, because we have a large part in determining our destiny correct.

Please correct me if I am wrong
In basic terms, an Open Theist believes that man's freewill overrides God's foreknowledge, God's will, and God's abilities.
 
Solo said:
In basic terms, an Open Theist believes that man's freewill overrides God's foreknowledge, God's will, and God's abilities.

Thats what I thought. It seems like an armenianist doctrine.
This really does describe drew and Unread to a Teeee
 
oscar3 said:
Thats what I thought. It seems like an armenianist doctrine.
This really does describe drew and Unread to a Teeee

We should remember that Arminianism is orthodox and has always been apart of historical Christianity. Arminians belief God knows everything about the future because He looks down the hallway of time and is able to see what is going to happen. The open theist doesn't see it this way. The open theist believes God learns as time unfolds, that He is either not able to or unwilling to know the future and must wait to see how man reacts. This is a heretical teaching. Calvinism on the other hand teaches that God knows the future because He decreed everything there is.

~JM~
 
JM / Solo
Thanks. This study is very much needed.
Perhaps it can be expanded a little bit to
diesm as well or deist as well.
 
How Open Theism Helps Us Conceal Our Hidden Idolatries
By John Piper April 10, 2002



Open theism may help conceal deep idolatry in the soul. One of the great needs of our souls is to know if we treasure anything on earth more than we treasure Christ. Treasuring anyone or anything more than Christ is idolatry. Paul said in Colossians 3:5, "Put to death therefore what is earthly in you . . . covetousness, which is idolatry." If covetousness is idolatry, then desiring earthly things more than we desire God is idolatry. That means we must be more satisfied in Christ and his wisdom than we are in all our relationships and accomplishments and possessions on earth.

Now how does Open Theism help us conceal from ourselves the idolatries in our souls. It ascribes ultimate causality for many calamities and evils to Satan or the autonomous will of man, not finally to the all-disposing counsel and wisdom of God above and behind Satan. For example, Greg Boyd says:

When an individual inflicts pain on another individual, I do not think we can go looking for "the purpose of God" in the event. . . . I know Christians frequently speak about 'the purpose of God' in the midst of a tragedy caused by someone else. . . . But this I regard to simply be a piously confused way of thinking (Letters from a Skeptic [Colorado Springs: Chariot Victor Publishing, 1994], p. 47).

Similarly, John Sanders writes:

God does not have a specific divine purpose for each and every occurrence of evil. . . . When a two-month-old child contracts a painful, incurable bone cancer that means suffering and death, it is pointless evil. The Holocaust is pointless evil. The rape and dismemberment of a young girl is pointless evil. The accident that caused the death of my brother was a tragedy. God does not have a specific purpose in mind for these occurrences (The God Who Risks [Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1998], p. 262).

If not "the purpose of God," what then is ultimate? Either man's will which is ultimately "self-determining" and can even surprise God (as Open Theists believe), or the will of an evil spirit which is also ultimately "self-determining." For example, after admitting that "God can sometimes use the evil wills of personal beings, human or divine, to his own ends," Boyd then says, "This by no means entails that there is a divine will behind every activity of an evil spirit" (God at War [Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997], p. 154, cf. 57, 141). "A self-determining, supremely evil being rules the world" (p. 54). "The ultimate reason behind all evil in the world is found in Satan, not God" (p. 54, my italics).

How does this worldview help us conceal the idolatry of our soul? It works like this. Open Theism denies that God is the final, purposive disposer of all things (Job 2:10; Amos 3:6; Rom. 8:28; Eph. 1:11). Therefore it asserts that God's wisdom does not hold final sway (Rom. 11:33-36), and thus God is not fulfilling a plan for our good in all our miseries (Jeremiah 29:11; 32:40). Open Theism implies, therefore, that we should not think about the wisdom of God's purpose in causing or permitting our calamities. In other words, Open Theism discourages us from asking what sanctifying purpose God may have in ordaining that our misery come about.

But in reality our pain and losses are always a test of how much we treasure the all-wise, all-governing God in comparison to what we have lost. We see this merciful testing of God throughout the Scriptures. For example, in Deuteronomy 8:3 Moses said, "And [God] humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord." In other words, God ordains the hard times ("he . . . let you hunger") to see if good times are our god. Do we love bread, or do we love God? Do we treasure God and trust his good purposes in pain, or do we love his gifts more, and get angry when he takes them away?

We see this testing in Psalm 66:10-12, "For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried. You brought us into the net; you laid a crushing burden on our backs; you let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water." And we see it in the life of Paul. When he prayed for his thorn in the flesh to be taken away Christ told him what the purpose of the pain was. "Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness'" (2 Corinthians 12:8-9). The test for Paul was: Will you value the magnifying of Christ's power more than a pain-free life?

We see this testing in 1 Peter 1:6-7, "In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, as was necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith – more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire – may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ." God ordains trials to refine our faith and prove that we really trust his wisdom and grace and power, when hard times come. Similarly in James 1:2-3, "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. . . . Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." Do we love God? That is the point of the test. Do we cherish him and the merciful wisdom of his painful purposes, more than we cherish pain-free lives? That is the point of God's testing.

Our trials reveal the measure of our affection for this earth – both its good things and bad things. Our troubles expose our latent idolatry.

For those who believe that God rules purposefully and wisely over all things, our response to loss is a signal of how much idolatry is in our souls. Do we really treasure what we have lost more than God and his wisdom? If we find ourselves excessively angry or resentful or bitter, it may well show that we love God less that what we lost. This is a very precious discovery, because it enables us to repent and seek to cherish Christ as we ought, rather than being deceived into thinking all is well.

But Open Theism denies that God always has a wise purpose in our calamities ("God does not have a specific divine purpose for each and every occurrence of evil"), and so it obscures the test of our idolatrous hearts. Open Theism does not encourage us to see or savor the merciful designs of God in our pain. It teaches that there is either no design or that the design of the evil done against us is ultimately owing to Satan or evil men ("The ultimate reason behind all evil in the world is found in Satan, not God").

Therefore, we may be so angry with Satan and with evil people (which is legitimate up to a point), that we fail to ask whether our anger reflects an excessive attachment to what we just lost. But if, contrary to Open Theism, we must reckon with the fact that God's wisdom is the ultimate reason we lost our treasure, then we will be forced to do the very valuable act of testing our hearts to see if we loved something on earth more than the wisdom of God.

All of life is meant to be lived to reflect the infinite value of Christ (Philippians 1:20). We show his infinite worth by treasuring him above all things and all persons. Believing in his all-ruling, all-wise sovereignty helps reveal our idolatries in times of pain and loss. Not believing that God has a wise purpose for every event helps conceal our idolatries. Thus Open Theism, against all its conscious designs, tends to undermine a means of grace that our deceptive hearts need.

© Desiring God

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Open Theism denies that God is the final, purposive disposer of all things (Job 2:10; Amos 3:6; Rom. 8:28; Eph. 1:11). Therefore it asserts that God's wisdom does not hold final sway (Rom. 11:33-36), and thus God is not fulfilling a plan for our good in all our miseries (Jeremiah 29:11; 32:40). Open Theism implies, therefore, that we should not think about the wisdom of God's purpose in causing or permitting our calamities. In other words, Open Theism discourages us from asking what sanctifying purpose God may have in ordaining that our misery come about.
I was under the impression that open theism makes no claim that God's wisdom does not hold final sway. I do not see how a partially open future necessarily leads to such a state of affairs. In fact, in the repost below, I argue that it is entirely possible for some agent to achieve his purposes even if he does not control all the variables in the system. Although the following material is really about "control", it can be seen as bearing on the issue at hand.

Drew said:
I will try to at least say something about the position that I hold - namely, that some outcomes can be guaranteed even if some variables are not controllable. Let's say that I am mysteriously drafted into the NFL as a wide receiver. I am a middle aged man with almost no athletic skill. Let's say that I line up at the flanker postion and am being covered one on one by the NFL's best coverage men - whoever that happens to be (let's say Deion Sanders).

The play is a pass to me. The ball is snapped and I start to run downfield. The key question: are there variables that Deion cannot control or predict and yet which he can "accomodate" and assure that his goal of knocking down the pass is achieved?

I think that there are. If I cut to the left, my slow speed is such that Deion can almost instantly get between me and the ball. Same deal if I cut to the right. His skill and speed are such that he can always react fact enough to ensure that I am not open when the ball arrives. Of course, Deion does not know which way I will cut nor does he control this. And, as part of this example, the quarterback does not throw the ball until I make my cut.

Now of course, there are other variables beyond Deion's control that he cannot accomodate and which will allow me to catch the ball. Let's say that Deion's foot gets caught in a seam in the astroturf - I mean really caught. Even though he is a far superior athlete than I am, his being stuck in one place means that I will be able to catch the ball.

I expect that, given more time to think, I could come up with a more watertight example. However, I think that this example powerfully supports the intuition that certain outcomes can indeed be guaranteed by some agent (Deion in this case) even if that agent does not control all variables.
I think that this thought experiment supports the notion that it is the specific characteristics of the system that determine whether an agent can achieve his purposes in the absence of both complete control and complete foreknowledge.

It is an over-simplificiation to assume that non-exhaustive foreknowledge rules out the achievement of specified goals.

Now if God has a goal that the third electron on the 301 zillionth chlorine atom in the Andromeda galaxy be at such and such a position at such and such a time and had similarly low-level goals in respect to every little atom in the Universe, then its a different ball-game altogether - and it would indeed seem that God would need to know (and control) everything to achieve such a purpose.
 
Drew said:
I think that this thought experiment supports the notion that it is the specific characteristics of the system that determine whether an agent can achieve his purposes in the absence of both complete control and complete foreknowledge.

It is an over-simplificiation to assume that non-exhaustive foreknowledge rules out the achievement of specified goals.

Now if God has a goal that the third electron on the 301 zillionth chlorine atom in the Andromeda galaxy be at such and such a position at such and such a time and had similarly low-level goals in respect to every little atom in the Universe, then its a different ball-game altogether - and it would indeed seem that God would need to know (and control) everything to achieve such a purpose.

It is easy to see that you are confusing God's will with God's foreknowledge. Thanks for clearing that up for me as to why you hold such a position.
 
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