What do you think constitutes a marriage?

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Is a couple married after the man and woman make a covenant with God?

Do they have to have some type of formal ceremony?

Must it be legal before God sees them as married?

Does the phrase "follow the laws of the land" apply to marriage? If you don't obtain a license from the state, it is not breaking or rebelling against the law. How do you feel about marriage licenses?

How I see it, marriage is a right. The government knows this but makes it hard for couples who don't apply for one. But when the government takes a right and says, "you need permission from us," it is no longer a right, but a privilege. I am really on the fence about avoiding the license all together or temporarily to keep receiving government benefits.

I find this topic interesting, but is seems nobody ever agrees. I would love to hear opinions along with scripture.

 

[Igor]

Probably you're going to get a lot of different opinions on this here as well! Seems I'm the first one to respond to the poll and I picked the commitment before God choice out of a process of elimination more than anything else. It seems that would be the most important in God's eyes, but that's just my personal opinion.

 

[handy]

This is a copy/paste from a thread about this that pretty much sums up what I believe constitutes marriage:

Here is a good passage to consider...

Ruth 4:9-12


<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-7200">9</sup> Then Boaz said to the elders and all the people, "You are witnesses today that I have bought from the hand of Naomi all that belonged to Elimelech and all that belonged to Chilion and Mahlon.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-7201">10</sup> "Moreover, I have acquired Ruth the Moabitess, the widow of Mahlon, to be my wife in order to raise up the name of the deceased on his inheritance, so that the name of the deceased will not be cut off from his brothers or from the court of his birth place; you are witnesses today."
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-7202">11</sup> All the people who were in the court, and the elders, said, "We are witnesses. May the LORD make the woman who is coming into your home like Rachel and Leah, both of whom built the house of Israel; and may you achieve wealth in Ephrathah and become famous in Bethlehem.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-7203">12</sup> "Moreover, may your house be like the house of Perez whom Tamar bore to Judah, through the offspring which the LORD will give you by this young woman."*

*quoted via Bible Gateway




This is a great passage when trying to navigate just what constitutes marriage in God's eyes, a subject that has come up here more than once.

The reason why I like it is because it doesn't necessarily show any specific ceremonies, which are dictated more by custom and culture, but it does show certain principles are involved in godly marriage that involves more than just having sex or making a vow before God.

We see that Boaz sought out witnesses to the fact that he intended to make Ruth his wife. We see that he paid a dowry for her (a cultural norm back then), we see that the witnesses were not just there to wish them happy and eat a chicken dinner, but to affirm their covenant with each other, as it was customary for all covenants to have witnesses.

This is another principle about marriage that is important to remember, it's not just some words or a "piece of paper". Marriage is a covenant before God. We know this from Malachi 2:13-14: "This is another thing you do: you cover the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping and with groaning, because He no longer regards the offering or accepts it with favor from your hand. "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant."

This isn't "symbolic" language here, Malachi is writing about marriage between men and women. And it makes it very clear that God recognizes marriage as more than just companionship, but a legal covenant.

It would be a long, interesting, but long, study to see what all was involved in covenants between men or between God and man, but suffice it to say that marriage is a biblically recognized covenant that God takes seriously.

Marriage is something that is driven not only by God, but by society as well. It is part of God's plan that people are married, not just co-habitation. My question to anyone considering choosing something other than a legally binding marriage is "why"? Why not just get legally married which is something both the church and society accepts? Why the attempt of an "end-run" around marriage?

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Probably you're going to get a lot of different opinions on this here as well! Seems I'm the first one to respond to the poll and I picked the commitment before God choice out of a process of elimination more than anything else. It seems that would be the most important in God's eyes, but that's just my personal opinion.

I am glad to hear the somebody agrees with me. :D

I think the covenant is what actually makes a marriage... well, because marriage is a covenant.

I had a debate with some other people a while back saying that it was a sin not to have a license and your "marriage" would be a lie.

I couldn't agree with this. I read about some people here in Mexico that could not afford a license, so they just did vows. I fully believe that they were married. I had a friend go through a similar situation as well.

 

[handy]

I responded to the poll "Other" because I would put both "A commitment between the couple and God" and "a legal marriage recognized by the state".

Just out of curiosity, Nicole, how expensive is a marriage license in Mexico?

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Marriage is something that is driven not only by God, but by society as well. It is part of God's plan that people are married, not just co-habitation. My question to anyone considering choosing something other than a legally binding marriage is "why"? Why not just get legally married which is something both the church and society accepts? Why the attempt of an "end-run" around marriage?

Well, I am not saying that one should not go and do the legal process, but I think that the actual marriage starts when a couple makes a commitment with God.

There are cases (not very common) where the couple cannot get a marriage license because they cannot afford it. Now, I am not referring to losing benefits, but the actual process to get a legal marriage is expensive.

--EDIT

Also, some people feel that they should not need permission from the state. Some just don't want the state involved.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

I responded to the poll "Other" because I would put both "A commitment between the couple and God" and "a legal marriage recognized by the state".

Just out of curiosity, Nicole, how expensive is a marriage license in Mexico?

Well, for the normal mexican couple, it is about 30 US dollars. The thing is, there are people here that are very poor or live in the country (and are still poor) and they cannot afford it. I think it's sad.

I want to go into my story, but I am not sure yet...

 

[handy]

Well, for the normal mexican couple, it is about 30 US dollars. The thing is, there are people here that are very poor or live in the country (and are still poor) and they cannot afford it. I think it's sad.

I want to go into my story, but I am not sure yet...

I can certainly see where $30 would be a huge expense for some in Mexico...and I don't believe God will condemn, if a couple makes a marriage without an expensive license, but I do believe they should make a covenant before God, which is recognized by their community. I do believe there needs to be a difference between marriage and just living together!

As for your own story...whenever you are ready.

You know, I also believe that as we draw closer and closer to the end times, and the Church faces ever more harsh tribulations, there might come a time when Christians are forbidden to marry by the state...in which case the Church will have to marry our own.

My point in my previous post was not that there would never be a compelling reason to not marry according to the state, but what would constitute a compelling reason. For someone to whom $30 represents an astronomical amount, that would be a compelling reason.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

I can certainly see where $30 would be a huge expense for some in Mexico...and I don't believe God will condemn, if a couple makes a marriage without an expensive license, but I do believe they should make a covenant before God, which is recognized by their community. I do believe there needs to be a difference between marriage and just living together!

As for your own story...whenever you are ready.

You know, I also believe that as we draw closer and closer to the end times, and the Church faces ever more harsh tribulations, there might come a time when Christians are forbidden to marry by the state...in which case the Church will have to marry our own.

My point in my previous post was not that there would never be a compelling reason to not marry according to the state, but what would constitute a compelling reason. For someone to whom $30 represents an astronomical amount, that would be a compelling reason.

I suppose I will go into my story. Everybody seems very nice and understanding here.

I wrote a little about it in another thread. I am an American and I moved to Mexico to get married. He is a Mexican national, and since we live in Mexico, we have a lot of extra steps we have to go through to get legally married. It hundreds of dollars because of permits, translations and paperwork. We cannot go to the U.S. to get married. He would have to make appointments with immigration and that alone is about 200 dollars. Then we would have to pay for the bus. It would end up being around the same price as a marriage, and there no guarantee that immigration would let him leave.

Now, this is when I actually started thinking about what makes a true marriage, and why I agree with number 1. I had to talk it over with my parents and also my friend's father (who is a pastor at a Christian church here) and her mother. I explained the whole situation to them and asked if a commitment to be married before God was enough. All of them agreed it was, but we should get everything done as soon as we can.

I just don't know how long it will take us. I have been so stressed out about getting that money, but ever since that chat I have been feeling a bit more relieved. They were so kind and understanding, and they actually thought about the situation before answering (which a lot of people don't do).

I do believe there is a difference between "shacking up" and actually living together as a honest married couple without the license. A lot of people think there is no difference. I am a bit young, but I appreciate God's gift of marriage and I believe that God will hold us to that vow even if we don't have a license.

I hesitated posting this here because last time I told my story in another forum, they said that I was a liar because we had license. One of them even found other information about me having a daughter in another thread and used that against me.

Well, that is it...

 

[WIP]

How I see it, marriage is a right. The government knows this but makes it hard for couples who don't apply for one. But when the government takes a right and says, "you need permission from us," it is no longer a right, but a privilege. I am really on the fence about avoiding the license all together or temporarily to keep receiving government benefits.

Is it illegal for two consenting adults to live together in the US? I ask only because even though it happens a lot I'm not sure about the legality of it. Here's why this is an important question.

I'm going with the assumption that the answer is no, it is not illegal. First, because there are too many that do this without prosecution and second, because in some states "common law" marriage is acknowledged and that can only happen if a couple has lived together as husband and wife for a period of time.

With that in mind then the marriage license is not a "permission" slip to get married but instead it is a document that grants the couple the tax and legal benefits of marriage. For example, the income tax rate for married couples is considerably lower than it is for single couples. Also, if one of the parties passes away, the other has legal rights to the shared property with much less hassle than for single couples. If I passed away tonight my wife would have little legal issues claiming ownership of our property because she is part owner by default and she has a license to prove it. If we were never united in a legal marriage, the situation could be much more difficult and costly.

I think there are two different ways to look at a marriage.

First and foremost there is God's way. A true marriage is God ordained and this type of marriage takes far more precedence than any other. This doesn't have a paper to prove it but it isn't needed.

Second is the state's way. This is nothing more than a legal precedent and has little to do with God. This one has a paper to prove it but then it needs it.

I had to vote other because I believe it is a combination of a couple of the choices.

Just my opinion.

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

Is it illegal for two consenting adults to live together in the US? I ask only because even though it happens a lot I'm not sure about the legality of it. Here's why this is an important question.

I'm going with the assumption that the answer is no, it is not illegal. First, because there are too many that do this without prosecution and second, because in some states "common law" marriage is acknowledged and that can only happen if a couple has lived together as husband and wife for a period of time.

With that in mind then the marriage license is not a "permission" slip to get married but instead it is a document that grants the couple the tax and legal benefits of marriage. For example, the income tax rate for married couples is considerably lower than it is for single couples. Also, if one of the parties passes away, the other has legal rights to the shared property with much less hassle than for single couples. If I passed away tonight my wife would have little legal issues claiming ownership of our property because she is part owner by default and she has a license to prove it. If we were never united in a legal marriage, the situation could be much more difficult and costly.

I think there are two different ways to look at a marriage.

First and foremost there is God's way. A true marriage is God ordained and this type of marriage takes far more precedence than any other. This doesn't have a paper to prove it but it isn't needed.

Second is the state's way. This is nothing more than a legal precedent and has little to do with God. This one has a paper to prove it but then it needs it.

I had to vote other because I believe it is a combination of a couple of the choices.

Just my opinion.

That is a great answer.

Firstly, no, it is not illegal to live together or be "married" without the state.

I say that the license is "permission" because of the legal definition of it. A license gives permission to do something that would otherwise be illegal. I think it is silly to need a marriage license when it is not illegal without one.

I do think that there are many great benefits of being legally married, though.

Now, when you say "God ordained marriage", are you referring to a church wedding?

I have always wondered about church weddings and if they are needed. In the bible, I have never saw where somebody pronounced a couple man and wife. I think church weddings are great, but not necessary. I do believe that the commitment between God and the couple is, though.

 

[WIP]

And there's this feeling like..I don't understand them.

God ordained does not mean church ordained.

M't:19:5: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
M't:19:6: Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
M't:19:7: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
M't:19:8: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
M't:19:9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
KJV

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

God ordained does not mean church ordained.

M't:19:5: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
M't:19:6: Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
M't:19:7: They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
M't:19:8: He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
M't:19:9: And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
KJV

I am very glad to hear that. Many people say that it means to be married in a church, so I was a bit confused. So then is that the covenant with God?

Sorry... everybody has different views, so I don't know what "God ordained" truly is...

 

[WIP]

I also think that a ceremony is important and that perhaps it can even strengthen a marriage more if the ceremony is done in the couple's church. I say this because they are not only committing to each other but by having a ceremony in front of all their friends and relatives they are declaring their commitment before many witnesses and this can make it harder for them emotionally to separate the first time they hit a road block. It's one thing to get married with only the two of you and God as witness and yet another when you have 250 or more witnesses. Obviously, as the statistics show, this is becoming less of a deterrent however.

 

[reba]

How about all of the above.....

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

I also think that a ceremony is important and that perhaps it can even strengthen a marriage more if the ceremony is done in the couple's church. I say this because they are not only committing to each other but by having a ceremony in front of all their friends and relatives they are declaring their commitment before many witnesses and this can make it harder for them emotionally to separate the first time they hit a road block. It's one thing to get married with only the two of you and God as witness and yet another when you have 250 or more witnesses. Obviously, as the statistics show, this is becoming less of a deterrent however.

Yes, there is a big difference. I plan to have a ceremony in a Christian church I found here in MX (I feel so lucky to have found it -- I swear God lead me to them!)

We just need all of the money for the paperwork (I explained it all in the story above)

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

How about all of the above.....

That would be ideal, but what if a couple cannot do them all (at least in the beginning)?

 

[WIP]

I am very glad to hear that. Many people say that it means to be married in a church, so I was a bit confused. So then is that the covenant with God?

Sorry... everybody has different views, so I don't know what "God ordained" truly is...

I think one must be careful here. To swear before God, i.e., covenant, must be taken very seriously. If not, the marriage isn't worth its salt.

M't:5:33: Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
M't:5:34: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
KJV

 

[Nicole L. Sattler]

I think one must be careful here. To swear before God, i.e., covenant, must be taken very seriously. If not, the marriage isn't worth its salt.

M't:5:33: Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
M't:5:34: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
KJV

Okay, so let me try to understand this better...

If an honest couple makes a vow to God to marry (and is completely serious about it) the marriage is valid (to Him) ?

I can understand a couple making a vow just to justify sexual relations without a true commitment being completely wrong.

Is that where you are getting at?

--EDIT

I know not to take vows lightly -- New International Version (©1984)
If you make a vow to the LORD your God, do not be slow to pay it, for the LORD your God will certainly demand it of you and you will be guilty of sin.

 

[Igor]

I also think that a ceremony is important and that perhaps it can even strengthen a marriage more if the ceremony is done in the couple's church. I say this because they are not only committing to each other but by having a ceremony in front of all their friends and relatives they are declaring their commitment before many witnesses and this can make it harder for them emotionally to separate the first time they hit a road block. It's one thing to get married with only the two of you and God as witness and yet another when you have 250 or more witnesses. Obviously, as the statistics show, this is becoming less of a deterrent however.

Just because something isn't specifically described in the Bible (such as a wedding ceremony performed by a pastor in a church with lots of people present) doesn't mean we shouldn't do it or that it is a bad idea. But if there are compelling reasons not to do it, it is not sinful to avoid it.

Same with the civil marriage (Let's not forget, Nicole is in Mexico where these things are done a bit differently than in the U.S., where a church wedding usually constitutes a civil wedding at the same time). There are benefits to the civil marriage, but if it the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, I see nothing in scripture to say that God will not honor a marriage just because a secular government doesn't recognize it.

Compared to the U.S., Mexico has a very corrupt government that is all about extorting money from people wherever possible. $30.00 for a marriage lic in a country where the equivalent of $100 U.S. dollars per week is considered an OK wage, and prices of many things are no longer any cheaper, and in fact more expensive than in the U.S. (if you want to by the same quality) is outrageous. I can understand why many people will choose to forgo the civil marriage even though it means loosing some possible benefits.