What do you think of this apologetic reasoning?

[Bruce.Leiter]

1) The God of the Bible is beyond human reasoning as three Persons in one God and Jesus as all-God and all-man.
2) The prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible had human reasoning.
3) Therefore, God had to have guided them in writing it because they couldn't have come up with God as Trinity and Jesus as fully human and fully human on their own.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Won't fly anywhere I've been. Items:

1) Includes multiple statements which God has not said. Therefore, this is human reasoning which does not have the impact of the actual Words of God Himself.

2) The prophets and apostles, and others, who wrote the Bible, had human reasoning, and also had words that God Himself spoke, which have impact infinitely beyond all human reasoning.

3) For almost all of the bits of trinitarianism completely outside Christ, try the Mithraist cult, or quite a lot of Hindu variations, or some American Indian input.

To be effective, it is the very things God quotes Himself as stating within Holy Scripture, which are the focus, the beginning and the end and the general function.

 

[Fish153]

Won't fly anywhere I've been. Items:

1) Includes multiple statements which God has not said. Therefore, this is human reasoning which does not have the impact of the actual Words of God Himself.

2) The prophets and apostles, and others, who wrote the Bible, had human reasoning, and also had words that God Himself spoke, which have impact infinitely beyond all human reasoning.

3) For almost all of the bits of trinitarianism completely outside Christ, try the Mithraist cult, or quite a lot of Hindu variations, or some American Indian input.

To be effective, it is the very things God quotes Himself as stating within Holy Scripture, which are the focus, the beginning and the end and the general function.

I have to agree with Bruce.Leiter, and so does Peter:
"For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit". (2 Peter 1:21).

But the Bible clearly states that Jesus was God in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD". (John 1:1). That same WORD which was GOD then came and inhabited a human body: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth". (John 1:14) God came and dwelt in human flesh (Immanuel: "God with us")

It's amazing, that though this is clearly taught, many deny it and say Jesus was not God.

But the teaching of the Trinity is truly taught by revelation of the Spirit. The Bible does not have the word TRINITY in it---but the Bible clearly teaches it in many places. It is understood by divine revelation, not by human wisdom. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses cannot accept it--they use human wisdom to try to understand the Trinity. It cannot be done. Here is one instance of the Trinity clearly taught in Scripture, but only understood if taught by the Spirit:

"And JESUS, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the SPIRIT OF GOD descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo A VOICE FROM HEAVEN, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matt. 3:16,17)

It is clear: I have capitalized the (3) Persons: JESUS, SPIRIT OF GOD, A VOICE FROM HEAVEN (THE FATHER). But the natural man cannot understand or accept this. This is a teaching that is understood by divine revelation. The Father through the Spirit must reveal it's truth to you.

 

[for_his_glory]

1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the Baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awaking's in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water (word) and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water (word), and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Scriptures that refer the Holy Spirit as being God:
Psalms 139:7, 8; John 14:17; 16:13; Isaiah 40:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11; Zechariah 4:6; Luke 1:35; Ephesians 4:4-6; Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19; Ephesians 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21; Jude 1:20

 

[live2blieve]

1) The God of the Bible is beyond human reasoning as three Persons in one God and Jesus as all-God and all-man.

Does this mean that it is impossible to understand the Godhead?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

1) God is spirit (Jn. 4:24), Jesus is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit. The closest modern analogy is Jesus being God's physical presence on earth, He is God on earth while God the father is God in heaven. In the OT God appeared to his people many times in form of man, known as "theophany", a term for that is "avatar".
2) Yes they do, but the bible is inspired by God, they just faithfully wrote down that divine inspiration.
3) The Trinity is a necessary mechanism for connection with manking and through which, salvation of mankind. The reasoning is as below, God speaks through a human spokesman, the Prophet, to his people, and that is Jesus, the medium between man and God. A common pitfall which has greatly saddens me is that the trinirt is often worshipped as a separate idol or weaponized against other Christians who hold a different opinion or merely different wording.

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’“And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. (Deut. 18:15-19)

 

[Free]

1) God is spirit (Jn. 4:24), Jesus is the incarnation of the Holy Spirit.

Can you provide biblical proof? Jesus you is the Son incarnate, not the Holy Spirit. That is why he is always mentioned alongside and as distinct from the Holy Spirit.

3) The Trinity is a necessary mechanism for connection with manking and through which, salvation of mankind.

The Trinity isn’t a “mechanism,” but is how God has always existed in and of himself. Wording matters.

 

[Free]

Does this mean that it is impossible to understand the Godhead?

To fully comprehend it yes, but there is enough in Scripture to understand in part.

 

[live2blieve]

To fully comprehend it yes, but there is enough in Scripture to understand in part.

Apostle Paul said that Godhead can be clearly seen, i.e., inderstood, from the examples in the Creation:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
(Romans 1:19, 20).

 

[Free]

Apostle Paul said that Godhead can be clearly seen, i.e., inderstood, from the examples in the Creation:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
(Romans 1:19, 20).

Paul's point is that creation shows that God exists and is worthy of our worship. What Paul is certainly not saying is that we can fully understand and comprehend God through creation, that God is completely knowable. Notice what he says--"that which may be known of God," which is to say only those things that are knowable can be known.

If a person thinks they know the infinite God completely and perfectly with their finite mind and all that we bring into our reasoning, then they have made their own god.

 

[Fish153]

Apostle Paul said that Godhead can be clearly seen, i.e., inderstood, from the examples in the Creation:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse
(Romans 1:19, 20).

What Free said is true. You can't take Romans 1:19.20 and think that it means that we can all understand God completely. That's impossible. God is infinite, we are finite beings. Free is correct---what Paul is saying is that Creation basically proves there is a God. It is undeniable. Paul ISN'T saying we can all understand everything about God. I truly believe that in eternity we as believers, redeemed, and in Heaven, will learn more and more about God---but we will never COMPLETELY understand Him as he is an infinite and eternal being.

 

[MisterE]

1) The God of the Bible is beyond human reasoning as three Persons in one God and Jesus as all-God and all-man.
2) The prophets and apostles who wrote the Bible had human reasoning.
3) Therefore, God had to have guided them in writing it because they couldn't have come up with God as Trinity and Jesus as fully human and fully human on their own.

First of all, you have mis-stated the Trinity. It is not 3 Persons in one God...
It is 3 Persons in one Godhead. 3 Persons in the Trinity.
God is not a name, but a Title. Each of the Members of the Trinity has the title God, the name is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
In Genesis, the Members of the Trinity are "one." This word "one" is the same word used of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve have become one, notice that "one" is not used of numeric. The "one" is the unity of the Trinity, not the number that makes up the Trinity.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Can you provide biblical proof? Jesus you is the Son incarnate, not the Holy Spirit. That is why he is always mentioned alongside and as distinct from the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit (Lk. 1:35, Matt. 1:20, Rom. 1:4), it was specifically stated "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." How you make of it is up to you, don't question me.

The Trinity isn’t a “mechanism,” but is how God has always existed in and of himself. Wording matters.

Unfortunately you've just demonstrated my concern of idolizing and weaponizing the doctrine of trinity. If you truly believe that wording matters, you would've known that God is spirit (Jn. 4:24) and not a man (Num. 23:19), while Jesus is both man and spirit (Rom. 1:3-4), that poses an inconsistency in the definition of "person" when the Son is a man while the Father and the Spirit are not. This problem is easily solved in Deut. 18:15-19 where it is clearly outlined that Jesus is God's spokesman through whom God communicates with His people and exercises His authority, similar to you the real person of flesh and blood before the screen and your online avatar "Free". That is a mechanism.

 

[Free]

Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit (Lk. 1:35, Matt. 1:20, Rom. 1:4), it was specifically stated "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." How you make of it is up to you, don't question me.

Bad grammar of mine aside, I never said Jesus wasn’t born of the Holy Spirit. The Son became incarnate, not the Holy Spirit. You’re conflating the work of the Holy Spirit with the Holy Spirit himself.

Unfortunately you've just demonstrated my concern of idolizing and weaponizing the doctrine of trinity.

No, I didn’t. Who God is is absolutely central to everything. It’s too bad you seem to be a relativist.

If you truly believe that wording matters, you would've known that God is spirit (Jn. 4:24) and not a man (Num. 23:19), while Jesus is both man and spirit (Rom. 1:3-4), that poses an inconsistency in the definition of "person" when the Son is a man while the Father and the Spirit are not. This problem is easily solved in Deut. 18:15-19 where it is clearly outlined that Jesus is God's spokesman through whom God communicates with His people and exercises His authority, similar to you the real person of flesh and blood before the screen and your online avatar "Free". That is a mechanism.

None of this addresses anything I have said.

 

[Free]

First of all, you have mis-stated the Trinity. It is not 3 Persons in one God...
It is 3 Persons in one Godhead. 3 Persons in the Trinity.
God is not a name, but a Title. Each of the Members of the Trinity has the title God, the name is God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
In Genesis, the Members of the Trinity are "one." This word "one" is the same word used of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve have become one, notice that "one" is not used of numeric. The "one" is the unity of the Trinity, not the number that makes up the Trinity.

The word “one” refers to the number of true Gods there are—just one. Adam and Eve are a different context. They are ontologically two beings and each their own person. God is ontologically three persons while remaining one being, one God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Bad grammar of mine aside, I never said Jesus wasn’t born of the Holy Spirit. The Son became incarnate, not the Holy Spirit. You’re conflating the work of the Holy Spirit with the Holy Spirit himself.

I'd rather consider that conception as work of Virgin Mary through three trimesters of pregnancy. Holy Spirit didn't carry itself to term, Mary did.

No, I didn’t. Who God is is absolutely central to everything. It’s too bad you seem to be a relativist.

No I'm not. God is the Eternal (Ex. 3:14) Creator (Gen. 1:1) of the universe, that's what's central to everything. Any other identity derives from that.

None of this addresses anything I have said.

Because you're being dismissive. You argued on "wording", I responded in regard to the definition of Trinity - three distinct, co-equal, co-eternal "persons".

 

[MisterE]

The word “one” refers to the number of true Gods there are—just one. Adam and Eve are a different context. They are ontologically two beings and each their own person. God is ontologically three persons while remaining one being, one God.

This is the view that the early Church judged heretical. It is called Modalism, and it was not accepted by any orthodox church father.

What is the definitions of "being" and "persons? I see no difference in the words being and person. You will need to explain how this is possible, not just say it.

Adam and Eve are not at all in a different context. It is a perfect context to demonstrate the nuances associated with the concept of "one" (echad). One in unity or harmony. How is it possible for the Son to be on the Cross, while at the same time in heaven?

During the early Church Age: The theological landscape of the time was filled with questions about how to understand the deity of Christ and how He relates to God the Father. Modalism was, in part, a reaction to Arianism, which argued that the Son was a created being and subordinate to the Father. In seeking to uphold the full divinity of Christ and protect the unity of God, Modalists over-corrected by rejecting the distinct personhood of the Son and the Holy Spirit, viewing them as mere modes of the one God.

I can assure you that you didn't come up with this position on your own. You have to be taught it first, then accept it. Despite the Bible saying nothing close to this position. Jesus said that the Father and I are one thing, not person.

 

[Fish153]

This is the view that the early Church judged heretical. It is called Modalism, and it was not accepted by any orthodox church father.

What is the definitions of "being" and "persons? I see no difference in the words being and person. You will need to explain how this is possible, not just say it.

Adam and Eve are not at all in a different context. It is a perfect context to demonstrate the nuances associated with the concept of "one" (echad). One in unity or harmony. How is it possible for the Son to be on the Cross, while at the same time in heaven?

During the early Church Age: The theological landscape of the time was filled with questions about how to understand the deity of Christ and how He relates to God the Father. Modalism was, in part, a reaction to Arianism, which argued that the Son was a created being and subordinate to the Father. In seeking to uphold the full divinity of Christ and protect the unity of God, Modalists over-corrected by rejecting the distinct personhood of the Son and the Holy Spirit, viewing them as mere modes of the one God.

I can assure you that you didn't come up with this position on your own. You have to be taught it first, then accept it. Despite the Bible saying nothing close to this position. Jesus said that the Father and I are one thing, not person.

MisterE- you asked:
"How is it possible for the Son to be on the Cross, while at the same time in heaven?"

Jesus Himself states he is on earth and in Heaven at the same time:
"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which IS in heaven". (John 3:13)

 

[live2blieve]

Paul's point is that creation shows that God exists and is worthy of our worship. What Paul is certainly not saying is that we can fully understand and comprehend God through creation, that God is completely knowable. Notice what he says--"that which may be known of God," which is to say only those things that are knowable can be known.

If a person thinks they know the infinite God completely and perfectly with their finite mind and all that we bring into our reasoning, then they have made their own god.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
(Romans 1:19, 20).

There are two conclusions from Paul's words:

• Obviously, many things cannot be known about God. Everybody agrees with that.
• However, some things may be known of God, because He showed them to people. In particular, Godhead is clearly seen or understood by the things that are made. So, people are without excuse of not knowing.

 

[live2blieve]

What Free said is true. You can't take Romans 1:19.20 and think that it means that we can all understand God completely. That's impossible. God is infinite, we are finite beings. Free is correct---what Paul is saying is that Creation basically proves there is a God. It is undeniable. Paul ISN'T saying we can all understand everything about God. I truly believe that in eternity we as believers, redeemed, and in Heaven, will learn more and more about God---but we will never COMPLETELY understand Him as he is an infinite and eternal being.

Please see my response to Free.