What does condemnation mean?

[onlysaved]

None of these details matter we ought not to be bickering a out them..

Who cares if believers sins are forgiven or not. I don't believe they are but it still doesn't matter. A person is saved or condemned based solely on what they do with Jesus.
All sins are paid for by Christbon the cross and for those with faith in Christ they are forgiven. That's all that matters. Let's agree on that instead of dividing over that which does not matter.

 

[MisterE]

@MisterE, how do you know from the Scriptures that David's son went to Paradise? All we know is that David would join him in death:

I am about as far as you can get from being a Reformed believer. First remember that people do not go to heaven or hell because of sin. All sins were paid for, so much so, that all unbelievers are redeemed. When a person commits a sin, that sin is put on Christ's account, not the one who committed it. There are no personal sins that eternally condemn a babe or an adult. God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he could have mercy on all (Rom 11.32).

It is God's desire that all people be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. You can trust that God knows how to save people. And it is his desire to save all people. That is a truth that is non-negotiable for me. Remember, just in the 7-year Tribulation, the number of people who will be saved can not be counted. This is who my Father is.

Yes some will end up in the Lake of Fire, mostly demons I suspect, after all, the Lake of Fire was primarily created for the demons, humans going to the Lake of Fire was an afterthought.

 

[brightfame52]

MisterE, how do you know from the Scriptures that David's son went to Paradise? All we know is that David would join him in death:

2Sa 12:22 He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

David does not explain his comment; you do. Why? If that passage is your only support for your idea that children do not fall under eternal condemnation, you are on flimsy, unsupported ground.

We are all born dead to God and therefore under God's condemnation:

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

People think that babies are "innocent"; however, they are born self-centered, which is the Bible's definition of sin, I think.

Yes, if not elect children, or babies they are born condemned by their sin in Adam, God sees all of Adams physical posterity as having sinned at the time he did, so babies are actually full grown Adams when they sinned in Adam, and we are all communicated a sinful nature when we are being developed in the womb by God Ps 51

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Gill writes and I somewhat agree:

Behold, I was shapen in iniquity,.... This cannot be understood of any personal iniquity of his immediate parents; since this respects his wonderful formation in the womb, in which both he and they were wholly passive, as the word here used is of that form; and is the amazing work of God himself, so much admired by the psalmist, Psalm 139:13; and cannot design any sinfulness then infused into him by his Maker, seeing God cannot be the author of sin; but of original sin and corruption, derived to him by natural generation: and the sense is, that as soon as ever the mass of human nature was shaped and quickened, or as soon as soul and body were united together, sin was in him, and he was in sin, or became a sinful creature;

So from Gods perspective, which perspective is Truth, Adams natural posterity had a solidarity with him in his transgression. Rom 5:12

 

[Fish153]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:17,18)

Jesus said the above before he died on the cross for everyone's sins.

"Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH even as others". (Eph 2:2,3)

Unbelievers are condemned ("children of wrath") because of their sins and for being in Adam.

 

[brightfame52]

Fish153

Jesus said the above before he died on the cross for everyone's sins.

Jesus never said that

 

[JLB]

Fish153


Jesus never said that

Here are the words of Jesus Christ -


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17

 

[LanaPodesta]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

Okay so like, yeah, when you’re thinking about grace and judgment and all that, it’s kinda the opposite of worrying whether you messed up by wearing the wrong underwear with low rise jeans or making some other “oops” decision. The whole point is that Jesus took care of every sin already — even the stuff we’re embarrassed about. So God’s not up there keeping track like, “Oh no, she wore a thong, that’s game over.”


It’s honestly super freeing. It doesn’t change your standing with God at all. It’s really just all about knowing Jesus — everything else is kinda like accessories.

 

[brightfame52]

Here are the words of Jesus Christ -


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17

Yes but thats not saying that what the poster said

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I am about as far as you can get from being a Reformed believer. First remember that people do not go to heaven or hell because of sin. All sins were paid for, so much so, that all unbelievers are redeemed. When a person commits a sin, that sin is put on Christ's account, not the one who committed it. There are no personal sins that eternally condemn a babe or an adult. God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he could have mercy on all (Rom 11.32).

It is God's desire that all people be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. You can trust that God knows how to save people. And it is his desire to save all people. That is a truth that is non-negotiable for me. Remember, just in the 7-year Tribulation, the number of people who will be saved can not be counted. This is who my Father is.

Yes some will end up in the Lake of Fire, mostly demons I suspect, after all, the Lake of Fire was primarily created for the demons, humans going to the Lake of Fire was an afterthought.

MisterE, you refer to one passage to support your idea, Romans 11:32. Look at the context, which limits Paul's "all" verses almost all the time:

Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
Rom 11:27 “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
Rom 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Rom 11:30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Whatever "all Israel" means in verse 26, it is clear that the "all" in verse 32 are Israel, not all humans. Please interpret verses in their context, or you can make them say whatever you want them to say. Thanks, brother!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Okay so like, yeah, when you’re thinking about grace and judgment and all that, it’s kinda the opposite of worrying whether you messed up by wearing the wrong underwear with low rise jeans or making some other “oops” decision. The whole point is that Jesus took care of every sin already — even the stuff we’re embarrassed about. So God’s not up there keeping track like, “Oh no, she wore a thong, that’s game over.”


It’s honestly super freeing. It doesn’t change your standing with God at all. It’s really just all about knowing Jesus — everything else is kinda like accessories.

That is true, because God the Father as our just Judge punished Jesus in our place.

However, LanaPodesta, the Bible calls us to take off the old-nature, sinful-nature "clothes" and put on the new-nature, Godly-nature attire because of Jesus' resurrection power in us through the new birth, as in Colossians 3:1-17:

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

 

[LanaPodesta]

That is true, because God the Father as our just Judge punished Jesus in our place.

However, LanaPodesta, the Bible calls us to take off the old-nature, sinful-nature "clothes" and put on the new-nature, Godly-nature attire because of Jesus' resurrection power in us through the new birth, as in Colossians 3:1-17:

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.
Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.
Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

what does this have to do with what I said?

 

[brightfame52]

Bruce.Leiter

Whatever "all Israel" means in verse 26, it is clear that the "all" in verse 32 are Israel, not all humans. Please interpret verses in their context, or you can make them say whatever you want them to say. Thanks, brother!

Both jew and gentile elect, God imprisoned them all in unbelief/disobedience so that He can have mercy on them all. The all Israel in Vs 26 is a combination of elect jews and elect Gentiles together as one Spiritual Israel. And of course we should keep in mind, mercy is only reserved for the vessels of mercy from Rom 9:23-24

So its no way the all in Rom 11:32 includes the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction.