What does it mean to be Under the Law?

[NewLifeInChrist]

The Spirit is God, so it would be absurd to interpret Romans 8:2 as the Law of God setting us free from the Law of God. In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so the law of sin and death is not the Law of God. The Law of God leads us to do what is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us in the opposite direction by stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so we need to be release from the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

I see that you are at least consistant with your prior statements that there are many different kinds of laws mentioned in Paul's writings. Here, however, you miss the point entirely that the 10 commandments (etc.) kill us because of the weakness of the flesh to obey it. Not only that, but you also miss the point that in Christ we have received God's free gift of life (i.e., the law that says there is life in Christ Jesus). And the main point is that we have escaped the eternal condemnation we deserve for breaking God's laws by virtue of the fact that we have received life by putting our trust in Christ.

In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under it. Moreover, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor of obedience to the Law of God and against sin. We are slaves to the one that we obey, either the law of sin, which leads to death or obedience to the Law of God, which leads to righteousness.

There is no law of sin. The law of God produces death because of our sins. And when we turn to Christ for forgiveness, He gives us the free gift of eternal life. This new life joines us to Him and makes us one spirit iwith Him (1 Cor 6:17). There is no turning back to loving sin after this happens to us.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked, so verses like Romans 8:1 that speak about those who are in Christ are only speaking about those who are follower of his example of walking in obedience to the Law of God.

I like to ask those who speak of our obligation to walk as Christ walked to explain themselves. You indicate here it is by being obedient to God's laws. But that is not how Jesus walked. He had an intimate personal relationship with His Father. Per His own testimony (I can provide many verse references if needed), He never said anything unless He heard it first from the Father and He never did anything unless He saw it first from the Father. He said that by Himself He could do nothing. Without Him, we can do nothing. And He told us that abiding in Him as He abided in His Father is the only way that we can bear fruit. Walking in lock step with His Spirit as He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the intimacy of our own hearts is not the same thing as being obedient to His laws.

Law of God came with instructions for what to do when God's children sinned, so it never required us to have perfect obedience. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have not had perfect obedience, so if we needed perfect obedience, then repentance would be of no value, but the fact that it has value demonstrates that we don't need to have perfect obedience. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referenced Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience.

Like I said, denying that the law of God came with curses for those who do not obey it completely is required to maintain a law-oriented view of righteousness. I am glad, however, to see that you have included in your doctrine the concept of repentance because it shows that the law is performing its function to convict people of their sins and drive then to Christ for forgiveness. However, if repentance is just a recommitment to be more obedient and is not an admission of failure and of the need for forgiveness, then it is little more than righteousness through obedience to the law. In other words, being sorry about one's sins and a recommitment to do better does not eliminate the need for one's sins to be forgiven. And, if one's sins are forgiven, then it is grace that produces the reconciliation, not obedience.

In Romans 3:28, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted "works of the law" with the Book of the Law, and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12, he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God. According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on the Book of the Law is the way to be blessed while lawlessness is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing the opposite of that passage. Rather, the way to be curse by not relying on the Book of the Law, which is why all who rely on works of the law instead come under that curse.

Everyone (no exceptions) is cursed who does not continue to do all things that are written in the book of the law. Their failures to continue to do all those required things is what puts them under the curse that the law establishes for lawbreakers. If a person puts himself under the law, then by default, that person is putting himself under the curse. Why? Because no person is declared righteous (by God) on the basis of his obedience to the law. This truth is made obvious in the OT verse that says the just ones will have life because of their faith (not by their obedience). Furthermore, it is obvious that obedience to the law is not a matter of faith, but a matter of performance because of another OT verse that says the man who obeys the law will have life based on his good performance of the law.

This is what Galatians 3:10-12 says. I can testify that seeing it the right way is very liberating.

 

[Soyeong]

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

Do you understand that being under grace, means we are under obligation to obey grace, just as being under the law of Moses meant being under obligation to obey the law of Moses.

Do you understand what grace is ?

Grace is Someone as much as something.

So, we are obligated to walk according to the Spirit (of grace) rather than walk according to the flesh (the law of sin in our flesh).

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. Galatians 6:7-8

• For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption,
• but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Yes, I understand what grace is, namely that God is gracious to us by teaching us how to walk in His way that we might know Him (Exodus 33;13), and God taught how to walk in His way through His law (1 Kings 2:1-3, Psalms 119:1-3), so that is what it means to be under grace and why Paul said that those under grace are not permitted to transgress it (Romans 6:15). In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so why we can’t earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, being made to be a doer of good works in obedience to God’s law is nevertheless a central part of God’s gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to walk in His way in obedience to His law is part of His gift of salvation.

In Romans 7:25-8:7, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin, he contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin of death, and he contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

By not quoting the actual scripture you left out an important word in Jesus teaching about the law of Moses.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18

• I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Do you believe Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses?

Yes. “To fulfill the law” means “to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon: pleroo), so was one of many who fulfilled the Law of Moses by teaching how to correctly obey it. According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another’s burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so that should be interpreted in the same way as fulfilling the Law of Moses, especially because Christ spent his ministry teaching how to correctly obey the Law of Moses by word and by example.

Ok


God instructed the children of Israel to do many things under the law of Moses, that were not optional.

Example:

Specific animal sacrifices
Dietary laws
Sabbath laws

You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 31:14-15


Do you believe the Church is obligated to obey these laws and commandments of the law of Moses?

While God is sovereign and obedience to Him is not optional, everything the He has commanded Was to teach us how to love Him and our neighbor. We are obligated to keep the Sabbath holy and breaking it still carries the death penalty, though there is no Sanhedrin and it would be unlawful to enforce a penalty that Jesus has already paid. Still, the fact that God considers breaking the Sabbath to be worthy of the death penalty and the fact that Jesus gave himself to pay that penalty should make us want to go and sin no more.

 

[jonathanbrickman0000]

Christ the Lord commanded His followers to never swear at all. The context to which you refer, does not exist. He has upheld no vows whatsoever. He has made no vows whatsoever. He has commanded that all never swear at all, ever again.

 

[Soyeong]

the 10 commandments (etc.) kill us because of the weakness of the flesh to obey it. Not only that, but you also miss the point that in Christ we have received God's free gift of life (i.e., the law that says there is life in Christ Jesus). And the main point is that we have escaped the eternal condemnation we deserve for breaking God's laws by virtue of the fact that we have received life by putting our trust in Christ.

In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to preset ourselves a slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life. This is also why Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments (Luke 10:25-28). God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Palms 119:142), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His law and it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should trust in God, but not in His instructions.

There is no law of sin.

In Romans 7:25, Paul said that he served the Law of God with his mind in contrast with saying that he served the law of sin with his flesh, so I don't see how you can claim that there is no law of sin. Likewise, in Romans 7:22, Paul said that he delighted in the Law of God in contrast with saying that the the law of sin held him captive and was waging war against the law of his mind, so I don't see how you can insist that Paul was speaking just about the Law of God in Romans 7. It would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or to interpret Romans 7:6 as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive.

I like to ask those who speak of our obligation to walk as Christ walked to explain themselves. You indicate here it is by being obedient to God's laws. But that is not how Jesus walked. He had an intimate personal relationship with His Father.

The Bible frequently speaks about walking in obedience to God's law, such as in Deuteronomy 10:12-13, so 1 John 2:6 is speaking about following Christ's example of obedience to it. The Mosaic Covenant is often described in terms of being a marriage between God and Israel, so the purpose of the Mosaic Law is to teach how to have an intimate relationship with God. The Hebrew word "yada" refers to an intimate relationship/knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. The Bible begins and ends with the Tree of Life in the Garden and the purpose of everything in between is to teach us the way back to it, or in other words, the goal of everything in the Bible is to teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

God's way is the way to know (yada) God and Jesus by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits, such as in Genesis 18:19, God knew (yada) Abraham that he would teach his children and those of His household to walk in His way by being a doer of righteousness and justice that the Lord might bring to him all that He has promised. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know (yada) Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus by walking in His way, which is His gift of eternal life. Likewise, the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character.

Like I said, denying that the law of God came with curses for those who do not obey it completely is required to maintain a law-oriented view of righteousness. I am glad, however, to see that you have included in your doctrine the concept of repentance because it shows that the law is performing its function to convict people of their sins and drive then to Christ for forgiveness. However, if repentance is just a recommitment to be more obedient and is not an admission of failure and of the need for forgiveness, then it is little more than righteousness through obedience to the law. In other words, being sorry about one's sins and a recommitment to do better does not eliminate the need for one's sins to be forgiven.

Everyone (no exceptions) is cursed who does not continue to do all things that are written in the book of the law. Their failures to continue to do all those required things is what puts them under the curse that the law establishes for lawbreakers. If a person puts himself under the law, then by default, that person is putting himself under the curse. Why? Because no person is declared righteous (by God) on the basis of his obedience to the law.

I did not deny that the Law of God comes with curses for those who do not obey it, but that it does not require perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience, but on whether we choose to serve God or to chase after other gods. While all have sinned and fallen short of perfect obedience, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods. The fact the cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything in the Book of the Law means that we should continue to do everything in it. The Law of God came with instructions for what to do when His people sinned, so if we repent in accordance with what it instructs, then we can continue to be a doer of it and not come under its curse.

The Law of God does not just lead us to Christ for forgiveness of our sins, such also leads us to him because it teaches us how to know him by being in his likeness through being a doer of His character traits. The way to believe in God is directing our lives towards walking in God's way, which is also the way to attain the character traits of God. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words, we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to beloved that God is a doer of justice is by directing our lives towards being in His likeness through being a doer of justice in obedience to Him, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is also why there are many verses that connect our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

While the only way for someone to attain a character trait is through faith, what it means for them to attain a character trait is for them to become a doer of that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is by faith apart from being required to have first done enough courageous works to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why the same faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of God's law, which is how Paul can deny in Romans 4:1-5 that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works while also affirming in Romans 2:13 that only the doers of the law will be declared righteous. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law.

Furthermore, it is obvious that obedience to the law is not a matter of faith, but a matter of performance because of another OT verse that says the man who obeys the law will have life based on his good performance of the law.

This is what Galatians 3:10-12 says. I can testify that seeing it the right way is very liberating.

In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that those who obey God's law shall live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. Moreover, the context of Habakkuk 2 contrasts the righteous who are living by faith with those who are not living in obedience to God's law. Obedience to God's law has absolutely nothing to do with trying to have a good enough performance.

 

[JLB]

everything the He has commanded Was to teach us how to love Him and our neighbor.

Amen.

The biblical definition for love is to keep His commandments, which are basically “sub commandments” of loving God and loving our neighbor.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
1 John 5:3

Nevertheless, the law of Moses has been abolished.

The law of Moses was “added” to the Covenant the LORD Jesus made with Abraham, before He became flesh.

The law of Moses was added until the Seed, the Messiah should come.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

However, because the law of Moses was abolished, doesn’t mean His commandments, laws, precepts that were part of the Abrahamic Covenant were abolished.

The New Covenant is the “renewed covenant” that the LORD Jesus made with Abraham before He became flesh… which is why we are called “sons” of Abraham.


And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:4-5

• Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.

Abraham walked with the LORD, and kept His commandments, 430 years before Moses gave the law.