What does the Bible really say about election?

[GraceBwithU]

Was the book of life written before the world began? Did God elect all that would be saved by NAME before the world was created, therefore predestining some for salvation and others for damnation? Who are the elect? Do we choose Him or does he choose us?

There are many scriptures that talk about Gods election before the world began. Some believe this to be totally finished and we have no choice. There are also many scriptures that speak of us making a choice to accept his gift.

Is there any way that both could be true? So I began a study of all scriptures I could find on the subject of elect and salvation.

The word “Saved†appears only 104 times. In the KJV
The phrase “Eternal life†appears 26 times in the KJV
The phrase “Everlasting life†appears 11 times in the KJV
The word “Elect†appears only 17 times. In the KJV
The word “Chosen†appears 123 times in the KJV
The word “Chose†appears 29 in the KJV
The word “Choose†appears 59 times in the KJV
The word “election†appears 6 times in the KJV
The phrase “world began†6 times in the KJV
The phrase “foundation of the world†appears 10 times in the KJV

After many hours of research and study of scripture it occurred to me that the Bible uses the word elect to describe three different groups of people.

• Those chosen by God for some special purpose. Among the Elect mentioned in scripture are Moses, Abraham, David, writers of the Books of the Bible, Christ's disciples, etc.
• The remnant of Israel.
• Whosoever chooses to believe? People are elected to this group every minute. (not before the world began)

 

[Drew]

This may be a repetition of things I have posted elsewhere, but I want post the folloiwing in respect to the Romans 9:22 text:

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction?

I want to be clear: all I am claiming in this post is that Romans 9 is not about election of individual people to heaven or to hell. I am not claiming that this is an argument against the doctrine in general. I am only arguing here that Romans 9 should not be used as a "proof-text" for election to salvation and / or to loss.

I believe that Paul is referring to Israel in 9:22 and that he believes that national Israel is indeed a "vessel prepared for destruction", however they are only "prepared" for destruction. They will not ultimately have to bear that fate - that fate is for the Messiah.

I read Paul as discerning the subtle sophisticated way that God intertwines the fate of national Israel and of her representative Messiah Jesus. Paul's thinking on this, as I see it, is basically this:

1. Adam sins and the world is cursed as a result;

2. God enters into a covenant with Abraham and hints that through the nation of Israel, the entire world will be blessed. And the form that this blessing will take is this: The sin problem of Adam will be "fixed";

3. How can Israel solve the sin problem since she too is in Adam? So even though most Jews would think that they will bless the world through "showing how good it is to live up to Torah", this is impossible for her. Israel, as we know, proves to be faithless in keeping Torah.

4. Paul discerns a "darker" purpose for the giving to the Law - that it was given to draw sin to its full and awful height in the nation of Israel. Since Israel has proved faithless and cannot solve the sin problem (she herself is in Adam), God still must remain true to his promise in Genesis to use Israel to solve the sin problem. God might seem to be "stuck".

5. God, however, does not abandon the covenant - He provides a faithful Israelite, Jesus. I will not make the case here but Paul sees the concept of Messiah as having a powerful strain of "representation" - the Messiah truly "acts as the nation" which He represents.

6. So Jesus, acting as Israel in the form of being her "corporate" representative, bears the power of sin of the cross and defeats it. God has indeed done what He said he would do - He has used "Israel" to solve the sin problem.

7. Jesus was "elected" to bear the sin of the world from the foundation of the world - Jesus is the vessel that is "destroyed" on the cross. But Israel, too, is a vessel prepared for destruction - she is the place that, through the mysterious action or Torah, the power of sin is "lured", localizing it in Israel, so that Jesus, the representative Messiah, acting as Israel, can then defeat it. In this way, Paul can truthfully imply in Romans 9:22 that Israel is vessel prepared for destruction.

This is all behind and underneath what Paul says in Romans 9:22. If one takes it as simply a declaration that some people are pre-destined to hell, I think one ignores the deeper "history of redemeption" context (summarized in the points above) that Paul is arguing for.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Drew,
Excellent post. It is not just Romans 9:22 However, but this entire Chapter that his been so misrepresented concerning the election.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Predestined Election? Yes and No!

In this thread I’d like to present to you how predestined election and free choice both play a part in God’s plan for salvation.

The bible has many verses that support both predestined election and free choice. We have four choices on how to handle the interpretation of these verses.
1. We can believe they are mistakes and the scripture is contradictory therefore throwing doubt on the entire Bible’s validity.
2. We can twist the scriptures supporting predestined election so much that other scriptures are ignored.
3. We can twist and distort the scripture that speak of a free choice until they fit well into a totally predestined election view.
4. Or we can accept all scriptures for what they say and study them all to see how they work together to bring about God’s perfect will and plan for the ages. They were all put there for a reason and there are no contradictions. None can be ignored.

First, did God predestine His plan for salvation? Yes! For Jesus to be crucified, did God predestine some to be saved and some not to hear his message? Yes!

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

In the verse above Jesus is talking to His disciples. His disciples were without a doubt predestined to follow Jesus. Also anyone else throughout history that was necessary for God’s will do be done, (Abraham, David, Jacob, Moses, the writers of the scripture, etc.).

John 10:25-26
25 I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Jesus is talking to a group that he knew would take support his crucifixion. For Jesus to be crucified some had to be blind and deaf, at least for a time. Some of these may have believed after His resurrection. But for now they didn’t hear. If they had believed him while he was here, he would have never been crucified.

John 10:18
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
KJV

Jesus knew all the hearts of the people He was speaking to.

 

[biblecatholic]

I think that God predestines every person to heaven but many do not "open the gift given" so they walk away from election by rejecting Christ....

We are made in the image of God... Just that statement shows us the value He places on us and the dignity that every human person has. Now some of His creatures reject Him so they do not remain in the elect

 

[GraceBwithU]

I think that God predestines every person to heaven but many do not "open the gift given" so they walk away from election by rejecting Christ....

We are made in the image of God... Just that statement shows us the value He places on us and the dignity that every human person has. Now some of His creatures reject Him so they do not remain in the elect

Good point, We are made in His image but not His completeness. : (A 6 not a 7). But still we are all special to Him. As this verse says He loves the WORLD.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV
:wink:

Some would say that the sovereign will of God is limited to always knowing and always predestining. I Say the sovereign will of God is that He has complete control of all of His attributes and can use any of them at anytime He wills to. Therefore if it is necessary for some to be predestined or chosen then His will is done. But if He wills for others to freely choose Him, (so he will receive glory in their choice of Him over the lies of Satan) then His will is also done. We are His creation. He would have it that none should perish…but some will by their choice.

 

[Drew]

I think that God predestines every person to heaven but many do not "open the gift given" so they walk away from election by rejecting Christ....

As you may know, I do not believe that God generally elects or pre-destines individuals to salvation or to loss. But, I do think you may be playing fast and loose with the concept of election here - not really using it properly.

At the risk of being seen as a Calvinist on this matter ( :D :D ), I do think that if God "elects" or pre-destines, we do have to grant that He, and He alone, is fully and sufficiently causing that something to come to pass. So, on this view anyway, it cannot be correctly said that God "elects" to salvation and then some do not accept the gift. If we are to be true to the concept of election, I think we need to say that if God "elects" X, then X will certainly come to pass.

In this regard, I agree with something that Grace (I think) posted earlier, something like "the plan of salvation was pre-destined". I would not put it quite that way myself, I would rather say that God "pre-destines" the existence of a category of persons, without "naming names". But I think it really boils to the same thing as Grace has posted.

I do not intend to be "picky" about what you are saying, and I would not be entirely surprised if you are saying the same thing that I am, just a different way. I do think, however, the more careful we are with honouring conceptual boundaries, the better. And I see the concept of "election" as necessitating the the thing that is "elected to happen" indeed come to pass.

 

[GraceBwithU]

I think that God predestines every person to heaven but many do not "open the gift given" so they walk away from election by rejecting Christ....

As you may know, I do not believe that God generally elects or pre-destines individuals to salvation or to loss. But, I do think you may be playing fast and loose with the concept of election here - not really using it properly.

At the risk of being seen as a Calvinist on this matter ( :D :D ), I do think that if God "elects" or pre-destines, we do have to grant that He, and He alone, is fully and sufficiently causing that something to come to pass. So, on this view anyway, it cannot be correctly said that God "elects" to salvation and then some do not accept the gift. If we are to be true to the concept of election, I think we need to say that if God "elects" X, then X will certainly come to pass.

In this regard, I agree with something that Grace (I think) posted earlier, something like "the plan of salvation was pre-destined". I would not put it quite that way myself, I would rather say that God "pre-destines" the existence of a category of persons, without "naming names". But I think it really boils to the same thing as Grace has posted.

I do not intend to be "picky" about what you are saying, and I would not be entirely surprised if you are saying the same thing that I am, just a different way. I do think, however, the more careful we are with honouring conceptual boundaries, the better. And I see the concept of "election" as necessitating the the thing that is "elected to happen" indeed come to pass.

I think we most certainly agree on all of this for the most part.

But just to be clear, I think it is very probable that God did indeed pre-choose some individuals. But these individuals were chosen so His predestined plan for salvation would happen according to plan.

There are many that have been chosen for His plans, but I can find very few that may have been condemned ahead of time. Most are simply given the choice to believe or not. I think even some of the Pharisees that acted to have Him crucified may have chosen to believe after such an event as is described in Matthew.

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

I do not believe as some that these were long dead or Old Testament saints. These were people they would recognize. Therefore, people of their day.

 

[Drew]

But just to be clear, I think it is very probable that God did indeed pre-choose some individuals. But these individuals were chosen so His predestined plan for salvation would happen according to plan.

As much as I am itching for a scrap, I entirely agree with this.....

 

[GraceBwithU]

But just to be clear, I think it is very probable that God did indeed pre-choose some individuals. But these individuals were chosen so His predestined plan for salvation would happen according to plan.

As much as I am itching for a scrap, I entirely agree with this.....

Ya see it is just the cart before the horse thing that I think we may disagree on in another trhead...But I think we do both have a cart and a horse...a white one, to ride behind Christ...

Rev 19:11-14
1 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
KJV

God Bless.