What does the word PERSON mean

[Henry]

In our 'debates' with the oneness folks here, the terms are often given different meanings then what they are used for by the other side.

Person is a good example of this, the oneness folks here use the word person in reference the Trinity in a different manner then we do, so here is an article that does a good job in summing this up for us.

Oneness and the word "person"

Oneness theology denies the Trinity doctrine and claims that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three separate persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three separate, simultaneous, persons. Please note, though, this is not saying there are three gods.
In defending the doctrine of the Trinity and in examining the Oneness doctrine regarding the Godhead, it is first necessary to define the terms that are used. Since the Trinity doctrine states there are three persons in one God, and Oneness Pentecostal theology states there is only one person, we first need to know what a "person" is before we try to discover whether or not God is three persons or one. Therefore, what qualifies someone as having "personhood"?
I offer the following analysis as an attempt to adequately define personhood. After the outline, I will attempt to show that the definition and/or characteristics of personhood can be applied to both the Father and the Son in a context that shows they both existed as persons at the same time, thereby proving Oneness theology is incorrect.

What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?

A person exists and has identity.

A person is aware of his own existence and identity.

This precludes the condition of being unconscious. A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.

A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.

A person possesses a will.

A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.

A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.

Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.

Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.

A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
Persons do not need to have bodies.

God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).

God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.

The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead.

"Let this cup pass from Me."

"And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, 42Saying, 'Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done'" (Luke 22:42).

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, 'O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt'" (Matt. 26:39).

In both Luke 22:42 and Matt. 26:39 (which are parallel passages), the context is Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, right before His betrayal. He was praying to the Father about the ordeal He was about to undergo. Several points are worth bringing out here.
First, in this passage, Jesus addresses the Father. He says, "Oh my Father..." Note that Jesus says "my" and "Father." These two words designate a "me and you" relationship.
Second, "If it be possible" is Jesus expressing a desire, a hope. What is that hope or desire? It is that "this cup pass from me." The cup Jesus is speaking of is the immanent ordeal of betrayal, scourging, and crucifixion. Jesus did not want to go through this. He was expressing His desire. It was His will not to undergo the severe ordeal ahead of Him. If this was not so, He would not have expressed the desire to have the cup pass from Him.
Third, in Matt. 26:39, Jesus says, "Nevertheless., not my will, but thine, be done." In Luke 22:42 he says, "Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." With this, Jesus is expressing His will and contrasting it to the will of the Father. Yet, He is stating that even though He does not want to undergo what lay ahead, "Nevertheless," He would submit to the will of the Father.
This shows that the person of Jesus had a separate and different will than the Father. Since we have two separate simultaneous wills, we have two separate and simultaneous persons and Oneness Pentecostal theology is incorrect.

Questions to ask the Oneness person:

Is Jesus His own Father?

If Jesus' will and the Father's will were identical (in an attempt to demonstrate that there is only one will), then why did Jesus express the desire to escape the cup but resigns Himself not to His own will, but the will of the Father?

Was Jesus praying to Himself at this point?

Was Jesus saying, "Not My will, but My will be done?" if there is only one person and one will involved?

 

[WyldCyde]

can you add a third option... something like "if the need arises".
Sometimes, when discussing & debating, we're on a similar wavelength, other times terms need to be defined.
For example the term GOD needs to be defined when debating with New Ager.
Another example: When two pentecostals are talking there is usually no need to define the term 'tongues.

WyldCyde

 

[Henry]

well I was in an AG church today they are pentocostal, and they do in fact define what tongues are and are not, in pretty hefty little booklet they give to visitors.

When you talk about tongus in the pentocostal circles there are many different ideas, so they do define what they mean by that word.

The oneness guys for example say it is part of being save, the AG say no it is secondary to being saved.

 

[Bick]

What is a person?

Henry. In quoting 2 Cor. 5:8, you seem to have forgotten what Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthinians, namely:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed---in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory'."

It is at the Rapture that all those in the body of Christ meet Him in the air. Not one by one at death.

God bless you, Bick

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Questions to ask the Oneness person:

Is Jesus His own Father?

Questions to the Trinitarian:

Is God His own Father?

Is God His own Son?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Questions to ask the Oneness person:

Is Jesus His own Father?

Questions to the Trinitarian:

Is God His own Father?

You are aware that the manner in which you posed this question is based upon a presumption of de facto 'twoness,' being as you referred to God both in the first person and in the second person. Is Jesus the Son the Father of God the Father? Of course not- unless one holds to a Modalist position.

Is God His own Son?

Same problem: You are asking if the Father is the Son.

Modern man believes his "self" and his voice are synonymous. This is not so, as I will demonstrate:

When I am alone, I hear a Voice that is my own. Did you follow that? I hear my voice, and I respond. Are there then two of me? Yes and no. Clearly, my logos (Voice) is me, just as the Me who produces and hears the voice is me. Yet the me who is writing to you is not my Voice, but Me expressed through my Voice. The You that hears me will be You, not your voice-- but your Voice will speak to You in consideration of the matter, and then You will speak through your Voice (logos) in reply. Your Voice simply finds the words to express Your will.

In this manner, the Son is subject to the Father, and acts in loco Pater.

Thus, when Jesus says "I can say only what I hear the Father saying," He is identifying himself as what John later documented: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

 

[supernac]

Question to ask Trinitarian after reading Isaiah 9:6: KJV

Who is the Everlasting Father?

Timothy knew the answer, 1 Tim 3:16 KJV

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Questions to ask the Oneness person:

Is Jesus His own Father?

Questions to the Trinitarian:

Is God His own Father?

[quote:72ca0]You are aware that the manner in which you posed this question is based upon a presumption of de facto 'twoness,' being as you referred to God both in the first person and in the second person

God being persons in the sense of ONLY the first/person/second/person/third person use of language is not Trinitarianism.

Is Jesus the Son the Father of God the Father? Of course not- unless one holds to a Modalist position

That's not even a modalist position. But you're trying to obscure the point, that point being, if...

a) There is only one God
b) The Father is God and Jesus is God
c) The Father is the Father of Jesus

then...

God is His OWN father, and, conversely, God is His OWN son. This is an absurdity, but inevitable if one believes that Jesus is also God and there is only one God.

Is God His own Son?

Same problem: You are asking if the Father is the Son.

Modern man believes his "self" and his voice are synonymous. This is not so, as I will demonstrate:

When I am alone, I hear a Voice that is my own. Did you follow that? I hear my voice, and I respond. Are there then two of me? Yes and no. Clearly, my logos (Voice) is me, just as the Me who produces and hears the voice is me. Yet the me who is writing to you is not my Voice, but Me expressed through my Voice. The You that hears me will be You, not your voice-- but your Voice will speak to You in consideration of the matter, and then You will speak through your Voice (logos) in reply. Your Voice simply finds the words to express Your will.

In this manner, the Son is subject to the Father, and acts in loco Pater.

Thus, when Jesus says "I can say only what I hear the Father saying," He is identifying himself as what John later documented: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.[/quote:72ca0]

The analogy ( actually more than an analogy considering the first few verses of John) would be a man and his word, just as you present. But the word of a man is not a distinct PERSON - the one the word originates from is the person. The word is something OF that person.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I'm not sure that I agree with you that a man and his word are simply just one person, and not distinct:but as you confirmed- this is just an analogy. All-encompassing descriptions of the Infinite God are not a feature of our current language.

And, as you confirmed, the first few passages of John use this very language. Actually, John draws upon Greek philosophy, of all things, to describe Christ. The Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God. To be with and to be...this does not match our experience in this material realm. We experience self as in opposition to/distinction from the other.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I'm not sure that I agree with you that a man and his word are simply just one person, and not distinct:but as you confirmed- this is just an analogy. All-encompassing descriptions of the Infinite God are not a feature of our current language.

And, as you confirmed, the first few passages of John use this very language. Actually, John draws upon Greek philosophy, of all things, to describe Christ. The Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God. To be with and to be...this does not match our experience in this material realm. We experience self as in opposition to/distinction from the other.

I don't think the passage is describing something incomprehensible, that is, not that God is totally comprehensible, but the relationship of this Logos to God is very simple...

The Word "is God" but not ALL of God. God, however, (the God that the Word is "with") IS all of God. God the Father (whom the Word is with) is the one person - defining "person" as a "personal being". He is God ENTIRE. His word (His intention or statement) is therefore "divine", in that it originates directly from God, but is not a "distinct person" from God the Father, only God the Father is a complete "person" (personal being). So the word was "divine" but not a DIVINITY in and of itself. It BECAME a person, a human person, when the "word became flesh". There was no "eternal Son", except in the foreknowledge of God. There was no "co-equal person".

If you say -

"I will have a son", for example, that statement is your WORD. When the fulfillment of that prophecy comes to pass, that son is your "word become flesh".

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I'm not sure that I agree with you that a man and his word are simply just one person, and not distinct:but as you confirmed- this is just an analogy. All-encompassing descriptions of the Infinite God are not a feature of our current language.

And, as you confirmed, the first few passages of John use this very language. Actually, John draws upon Greek philosophy, of all things, to describe Christ. The Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God. To be with and to be...this does not match our experience in this material realm. We experience self as in opposition to/distinction from the other.

I don't think the passage is describing something incomprehensible, that is, not that God is totally comprehensible, but the relationship of this Logos to God is very simple...

The Word "is God" but not ALL of God. God, however, (the God that the Word is "with") IS all of God. God the Father (whom the Word is with) is the one person - defining "person" as a "personal being". He is God ENTIRE. His word (His intention or statement) is therefore "divine", in that it originates directly from God, but is not a "distinct person" from God the Father, only God the Father is a complete "person" (personal being). So the word was "divine" but not a DIVINITY in and of itself. It BECAME a person, a human person, when the "word became flesh". There was no "eternal Son", except in the foreknowledge of God. There was no "co-equal person".

If you say -

"I will have a son", for example, that statement is your WORD. When the fulfillment of that prophecy comes to pass, that son is your "word become flesh".

The Word- who was with God, is the same one of whom John said

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So we have John personifying this Word. So what then- was this Jesus God the Father? If so, why did He pray to the Father? Why did He make distinctions between Himself and the Father, yet make connections as well (I and the Father are One; you have seen me, (therefore) ou have seen the Father)

Just my two cents.
Happy weekend.
James

 

[BradtheImpaler]

[quote="Orthodox Christian":a5445]I'm not sure that I agree with you that a man and his word are simply just one person, and not distinct:but as you confirmed- this is just an analogy. All-encompassing descriptions of the Infinite God are not a feature of our current language.

And, as you confirmed, the first few passages of John use this very language. Actually, John draws upon Greek philosophy, of all things, to describe Christ. The Word of God was with God and the Word of God was God. To be with and to be...this does not match our experience in this material realm. We experience self as in opposition to/distinction from the other.

I don't think the passage is describing something incomprehensible, that is, not that God is totally comprehensible, but the relationship of this Logos to God is very simple...

The Word "is God" but not ALL of God. God, however, (the God that the Word is "with") IS all of God. God the Father (whom the Word is with) is the one person - defining "person" as a "personal being". He is God ENTIRE. His word (His intention or statement) is therefore "divine", in that it originates directly from God, but is not a "distinct person" from God the Father, only God the Father is a complete "person" (personal being). So the word was "divine" but not a DIVINITY in and of itself. It BECAME a person, a human person, when the "word became flesh". There was no "eternal Son", except in the foreknowledge of God. There was no "co-equal person".

If you say -

"I will have a son", for example, that statement is your WORD. When the fulfillment of that prophecy comes to pass, that son is your "word become flesh".

The Word- who was with God, is the same one of whom John said

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So we have John personifying this Word. So what then- was this Jesus God the Father? If so, why did He pray to the Father? Why did He make distinctions between Himself and the Father, yet make connections as well (I and the Father are One; you have seen me, (therefore) ou have seen the Father)

Just my two cents.
Happy weekend.
James[/quote:a5445]

My reasoning here is an attempt to reconcile all this without contradicting the fact that, if the scripture teaches anything clearly, it is that there is only ONE God, which everyone agrees. All reasoning on this issue (and the Trinity certainly is also a product or reasoning) is an attempt to reconcile these things without contradiction. I believe the doctrine of the Trinity, however, DOES contradict this in truth. So here's how I would reconcile it...

The bible tells us that God "spoke" and creation ensued. The word "Logos" as you know, means simply that. A spoken or written word. Why would we believe that John intended to portray Jesus as a divine person in the Godhead, co-equal with the Father etc, when he simply described a "word"? All things were made through God the Father SPEAKING it into existence. This "speaking" is not another "person", it is the ACT of a person speaking. To attribute creation to Jesus Christ, the PERSON, is retroactive in nature, like claiming that Christ was the "lamb crucified before the foundation of the world". Well, he wasn't literally crucified before the foundation of the world, but in another sense he was, for it was already in the mind of God who sees it as being done.

A better example would be the comment in Hebrews that says that Levi payed tithes in Abraham for he was yet in the loins of Abraham when Melchisedec met him and Abraham payed the tithe (He.7:9,10) But LEVI DIDN"T ACTUALLY EXIST AT THAT TIME. It is an act that is RETROACTIVELY attributed to him, and this type of illustration or reasoning is, itself, Jewish in thought.

It we think like Jews when reasoning the scriptures out, we come up with a very different conclusion in many cases than if we think like Greeks. Given the entire bible is born or translated through the Hebrew mind, I can only believe that the first choice is correct - think like a Jew, not a Greek. [nothing wrong with Greeks, but the whole religious/philosophical input would be foreign to the nature of the scriptures in general which were (supposedly) all written by Jews]

Nice to hear from you again James

 

[SpiritualSon]

Too all,
1 Thessalonians 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord

By these words man is soul, body and spirit, therefore he is one person. The Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore He one Divine Person.

Harry :fadein:

 

[SpiritualSon]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord

By these words of Paul, means that man is a soul, body and spirit, and therefore one person. In Jesus Christ, His Soul, Body and Spirit, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore God is one Divine Person.

Harry :fadein:

 

[SpiritualSon]

Sorry, deleted

 

[BradtheImpaler]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord

By these words of Paul, means that man is a soul, body and spirit, and therefore one person. In Jesus Christ, His Soul, Body and Spirit, is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, therefore God is one Divine Person.

Harry :fadein:

As your 3 posts are really one post? :wink:

So you are not a Trinitarian?

 

[Orthodoxy]

Questions to ask the Oneness person:

Is Jesus His own Father?

Questions to the Trinitarian:

Is God His own Father?

You are aware that the manner in which you posed this question is based upon a presumption of de facto 'twoness,' being as you referred to God both in the first person and in the second person. Is Jesus the Son the Father of God the Father? Of course not- unless one holds to a Modalist position.

Is God His own Son?

Same problem: You are asking if the Father is the Son.

Modern man believes his "self" and his voice are synonymous. This is not so, as I will demonstrate:

When I am alone, I hear a Voice that is my own. Did you follow that? I hear my voice, and I respond. Are there then two of me? Yes and no. Clearly, my logos (Voice) is me, just as the Me who produces and hears the voice is me. Yet the me who is writing to you is not my Voice, but Me expressed through my Voice. The You that hears me will be You, not your voice-- but your Voice will speak to You in consideration of the matter, and then You will speak through your Voice (logos) in reply. Your Voice simply finds the words to express Your will.

In this manner, the Son is subject to the Father, and acts in loco Pater.

Thus, when Jesus says "I can say only what I hear the Father saying," He is identifying himself as what John later documented: In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God.

Very Good. Tis good to be orthodox in "oneness".

In Christ,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

The Church defines and confesses the one true God that man is to worship in spirit and in truth. All other confessions are misrepresentations, misguided utterances and manufactured man made manefestos of manipulative malfactors.

The Church believes in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and all things Visible and Invisible.

The Church believes in One Lord, Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all ages, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten not made, of one essence with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation, He came down from Heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became Man. He was crucified, also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered, died and was buried. The third day He rose again according to scriptures. He ascended into the heavens and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with Glory to judge both the living and the dead, and of His Kingdom there will be no end.
.
The Church believes in the Holy Spirit, The Lord, the Giver of Life. Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son, is worshipped and glorified; who spoke through the prophets.

The Church believes in one holy, universal and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins and We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life to come. Amen.

This is the Christian trinitarian model. God is:

The Father: the Originator, Maker of Heaven and Earth and all things Visible and Invisible, nothing is made that is made without Him.

The Son: who is eternally begotten of the Father, not made, not a creation but eternally begotten of the Father before all ages. He became a man. The Father never left the throne of Grace and became a man, the eternal and uncreated Son did.

The Holy Spirit: Who proceeds eternally from the Father. His person, His nature, His essance is true God of True God. His procession from the Father is eternal. Coming forth from the Father He is sent eternally by the Son and testifies eternally of the Son, Jesus Christ.

Plainly all three are persons. All three carry personal traits. Each person is co equal, co existant, co eternal. Each person of the Holy Trinity moves and has in themselves personal being, a will, existance, completeness, totality, fully God, each, together and of themselves. Each person interacts with the Other towards the salvation of man.

The relationship of the Holy Trinity is a model for the Church. According to the bible "the Church is the "fulness of Him"(Ephesians 1:22-23). This is why the Church's understanding of the Trinity is the true and right knowledge of this "one true God", because "the Church is the "fulness", all others are frauds and phoneys.

We are warned not to lean on our own understanding lest we worship the wrong God.

Orthodoxy

 

[SpiritualSon]

God is one Person:
Hebrews 1:3 ...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person. . ."

There is a difference of understanding in the definition of the word person. Some understand person to mean the body or appearance, the visible expression. If we accept this definition, then clearly the Father is not a person, for He is Spirit.

On the other hand, others understand person to be associated with personality, individuality, self-consciousness, self-determination, etc. If we accept this definition, then the Father is a person. However, this still will not make two or three persons in the Godhead. There is only one God, and only one personality of Deity. This personality is the one and same whether seen, as Jehovah in the Old Testament, or as Jesus in the New Testament.

The Scriptural reference given, Hebrews 1:3, is the only place in the Bible that the word person is given when referring to the Godhead or Deity. In the Greek, this Scripture reads, the expression of his substance. In the Amplified New Testament we read, He is the perfect imprint and very image of (God's) nature.

The conclusion is that the word person is not actually a proper word to use when referring to Deity, but rather we should use the terms, substance, nature, being, etc.

God has personality:
1 John 1:3 And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

It is very important that we have a clear understanding on this truth, for if we go wrong here, it will definitely lead to further mis­understanding. It is very easy to miss. the true revelation and to turn to one extreme or the other. We should pray that the Lord will enable us to remain solidly established in the very center of revealed Truth.

In both the Old and New Testaments, man is able to have fellowship with God. Man is able to talk to God and have communion with His Maker. We must never think of God as being just an impersonal force or influence. He is a personal God who loved us and manifested Himself in flesh to die for us. As such, He has personality but He is still one God, one Divine Being.

A man cannot talk to an impersonal force such as sunlight, warmth, gravity, mother nature, etc., but he can talk to his wife, his child, his father. Not only can he talk to them, but there can be a communion, a fellowship because they are living beings, individuals with minds and hearts of their own.

This truth must be clearly understood when the personal pronouns are used. The personal pronoun "He" should always be used, never the neuter pronoun "it'. This is also true when speaking of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2:2 we find the neuter pronoun "it", but this is referring to the wind that filled all the house. It is correct to refer to the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as "it", but when we receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts, we receive Him,Jesus Christ

However, there are not three hes in the Godhead. When the personal pronoun is used, we are referring to our one and only God whether revealed to us in Creation, manifested to us in Redemption, or coming into our hearts in Regeneration.

Man is soul, body and spirit:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And may the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Jesus meant that these three, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in Him.

The titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are freely used in the scriptures, but this fact does not make three persons nor three Gods. The Bible declares that Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one Divine Person, bearing one name, JESUS.

To understand this truth, let us consider man. He is spirit, soul and body; but he is one person and bears one name. The three titles do not make three persons any more than body, soul and spirit make three persons. In Colossians 1:3 we read these words, We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.. . Please note: God and the Father. Here are two titles placed together. Does this make two persons?

God manifested Himself in the Flesh:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Timothy 3:16 is one of the key verses that can only be understood by revelation, and yet must be understood if we are to grasp an under­standing of the Godhead. The Amplified New Testament reads, He (God) was made visible in human flesh.

In the past, God has manifested Himself in many ways to man. In creation, on Mount Sinai, in the Theophanies, in the Tabernacle, God manifested Himself in a measure to man and man was able to have a certain knowledge of God. However, in the one Scripture that speaks of God being manifested we have the greatest knowledge of God ever given, for in the incarnation Christ is the express image of the invisible God. (Hebrews 1:3)

On this thought let us quote from Adam Clarkes Commentary on his note on John 17:6. A little of the Divine nature was known by the works of creation; a little more was known by the Mosaic revelation; but the full manifestation of God, His nature, and His attributes, came only through the revelation of Christ. - Adam Clarke.

In this regard let us always quote scripture correctly:

1. John 1:14 The Word was made flesh.

2. 1 Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh.

It was the LOGOS which was made flesh; God was manifest in the flesh. There is an important difference in these two statements which we shall see as we continue our studies.

The myatery of Godliness:
The mystery of godliness is God manifesting Himself in flesh; the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2:7) is flesh manifesting itself as God. These are contrasted in the Scriptures and man has his choice. If he does not accept the mystery of godliness, he will be compelled to accept the mystery of iniquity.

THE LOGOS IS DEITY EXPRESSED:

Scriptural Reference:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Word is translated from the Greek Logos. This Greek word Logos means not only the expression of an inward thought, but also might attempt to define the meaning of Logos. We might say that the meaning of LOGOS is DEITY EXPRESSED. In other words, the Logos is the expression of the invisible God. The Schofield Bible says, Deity told out"

Just as a man's thinking and expression of that thinking cannot be separated from the man himself and is in essence part of his very being, not another person, so it is with God. The scripture written by the apostle under inspiration to safeguard against the error of another person clearly states, THE LOGOS WAS GOD.

Jeeus Christ possesses a dual nature:
Jesus Christ in the incarnation possessed a dual nature: divinity and humanity. Note well that Jesus Christ was not two persons, nor did He possess two personalities. But He was God-Man, the Word incarnate, God manifested as flesh. As a human being, He was the Son; as God He was the Father. As the Son many times He spoke and acted as a man; as the Father many times He spoke and acted as God. Once this truth is understood, the door is open to a clear understanding of just who Jesus really is: THE MIGHTY GOD IN CHRIST: JEHOVAH-SAVIOUR.

If the Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, than the Son, which is the Father's Human Form must be equally Divine with the Soul. The Divine Soul, and the Divine Human Form are one in Jesus Christ. Jesus was both Father and Son, Divine and Human.

Jesus Christ is not the eternal Son, or Son from eternity before creation. Jesus Christ was born in time, born to the virgin Mary.

John 1:14 ...the glory as of the only begotten of the Father... John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

Acts 13:33 . . .Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The eternal Son theory is not scriptural. It came as the result of the Trinitarian theory and teaches a second person in the Godhead. Jesus Christ in the flesh was the begotten Son. (John 3:16) The words begotten and eternal mean the very opposite and contradict each other.

Too those who are thinking of God's name called Elohim, and trying convince themselves that there were three persons before creation; let us make man, means that Elohim regenerates man through the angels. It was through them Elohim said those word, let us make man, not through a son or holy spirit, which never was before creation. Elohim means God of gods. Angels are called little gods and so are men on earth, for Jesus said to the Jews, that in their writings they were called gods. Jesus said, Is it not written in your law, Ye are Gods? (John 10:34).

Let us quote from Adam Clarke's Commentary on his note on Acts 13:33, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The human nature of our blessed Lord was begotten by the energy of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the blessed virgin; for as to his Divine nature, which is allowed to be God, it could neither be created nor begotten... the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is absolutely irreconcilable to reason, and contradictory to itself. Eternity is that which has had no beginning, nor stands with any reference to time: Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation: therefore, the rational conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity, is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas. - Adam Clarke

Harry :fadein:

 

[SpiritualSon]

God is one Person:
Hebrews 1:3 ...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person. . ."

There is a difference of understanding in the definition of the word person. Some understand person to mean the body or appearance, the visible expression. If we accept this definition, then clearly the Father is not a person, for He is Spirit.

On the other hand, others understand person to be associated with personality, individuality, self-consciousness, self-determination, etc. If we accept this definition, then the Father is a person. However, this still will not make two or three persons in the Godhead. There is only one God, and only one personality of Deity. This personality is the one and same whether seen, as Jehovah in the Old Testament, or as Jesus in the New Testament.

The Scriptural reference given, Hebrews 1:3, is the only place in the Bible that the word person is given when referring to the Godhead or Deity. In the Greek, this Scripture reads, the expression of his substance. In the Amplified New Testament we read, He is the perfect imprint and very image of (God's) nature.

The conclusion is that the word person is not actually a proper word to use when referring to Deity, but rather we should use the terms, substance, nature, being, etc.

God has personality:
1 John 1:3 And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

It is very important that we have a clear understanding on this truth, for if we go wrong here, it will definitely lead to further mis­understanding. It is very easy to miss. the true revelation and to turn to one extreme or the other. We should pray that the Lord will enable us to remain solidly established in the very center of revealed Truth.

In both the Old and New Testaments, man is able to have fellowship with God. Man is able to talk to God and have communion with His Maker. We must never think of God as being just an impersonal force or influence. He is a personal God who loved us and manifested Himself in flesh to die for us. As such, He has personality but He is still one God, one Divine Being.

A man cannot talk to an impersonal force such as sunlight, warmth, gravity, mother nature, etc., but he can talk to his wife, his child, his father. Not only can he talk to them, but there can be a communion, a fellowship because they are living beings, individuals with minds and hearts of their own.

This truth must be clearly understood when the personal pronouns are used. The personal pronoun "He" should always be used, never the neuter pronoun "it'. This is also true when speaking of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2:2 we find the neuter pronoun "it", but this is referring to the wind that filled all the house. It is correct to refer to the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as "it", but when we receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts, we receive Him,Jesus Christ

However, there are not three hes in the Godhead. When the personal pronoun is used, we are referring to our one and only God whether revealed to us in Creation, manifested to us in Redemption, or coming into our hearts in Regeneration.

Man is soul, body and spirit:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And may the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord.

I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Jesus meant that these three, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in Him.

The titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are freely used in the scriptures, but this fact does not make three persons nor three Gods. The Bible declares that Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one Divine Person, bearing one name, JESUS.

To understand this truth, let us consider man. He is spirit, soul and body; but he is one person and bears one name. The three titles do not make three persons any more than body, soul and spirit make three persons. In Colossians 1:3 we read these words, We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.. . Please note: God and the Father. Here are two titles placed together. Does this make two persons?

God manifested Himself in the Flesh:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Timothy 3:16 is one of the key verses that can only be understood by revelation, and yet must be understood if we are to grasp an under­standing of the Godhead. The Amplified New Testament reads, He (God) was made visible in human flesh.

In the past, God has manifested Himself in many ways to man. In creation, on Mount Sinai, in the Theophanies, in the Tabernacle, God manifested Himself in a measure to man and man was able to have a certain knowledge of God. However, in the one Scripture that speaks of God being manifested we have the greatest knowledge of God ever given, for in the incarnation Christ is the express image of the invisible God. (Hebrews 1:3)

On this thought let us quote from Adam Clarkes Commentary on his note on John 17:6. A little of the Divine nature was known by the works of creation; a little more was known by the Mosaic revelation; but the full manifestation of God, His nature, and His attributes, came only through the revelation of Christ. - Adam Clarke.

In this regard let us always quote scripture correctly:

1. John 1:14 The Word was made flesh.

2. 1 Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh.

It was the LOGOS which was made flesh; God was manifest in the flesh. There is an important difference in these two statements which we shall see as we continue our studies.

The myatery of Godliness:
The mystery of godliness is God manifesting Himself in flesh; the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2:7) is flesh manifesting itself as God. These are contrasted in the Scriptures and man has his choice. If he does not accept the mystery of godliness, he will be compelled to accept the mystery of iniquity.

THE LOGOS IS DEITY EXPRESSED:

Scriptural Reference:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.â€Â

Word is translated from the Greek Logos. This Greek word Logos means not only the expression of an inward thought, but also might attempt to define the meaning of Logos. We might say that the meaning of LOGOS is DEITY EXPRESSED. In other words, the Logos is the expression of the invisible God. The Schofield Bible says, Deity told out"

Just as a man's thinking and expression of that thinking cannot be separated from the man himself and is in essence part of his very being, not another person, so it is with God. The scripture written by the apostle under inspiration to safeguard against the error of another person clearly states, THE LOGOS WAS GOD.

Jesus Christ possesses a dual nature:
Jesus Christ in the incarnation possessed a dual nature: divinity and humanity. Note well that Jesus Christ was not two persons, nor did He possess two personalities. But He was God-Man, the Word incarnate, God manifested as flesh. As a human being, He was the Son; as God He was the Father. As the Son many times He spoke and acted as a man; as the Father many times He spoke and acted as God. Once this truth is understood, the door is open to a clear understanding of just who Jesus really is: THE MIGHTY GOD IN CHRIST: JEHOVAH-SAVIOUR.

If the Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, than the Son, which is the Father's Human Form must be equally Divine with the Soul. The Divine Soul, and the Divine Human Form are one in Jesus Christ. Jesus was both Father and Son, Divine and Human.

Jesus Christ is not the eternal Son, or Son from eternity before creation. Jesus Christ was born in time, born to the virgin Mary.

John 1:14 ...the glory as of the only begotten of the Father... John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...

Acts 13:33 . . .Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The eternal Son theory is not scriptural. It came as the result of the Trinitarian theory and teaches a second person in the Godhead. Jesus Christ in the flesh was the begotten Son. (John 3:16) The words begotten and eternal mean the very opposite and contradict each other.

Too those who are thinking of God's name called Elohim, and trying convince themselves that there were three persons before creation; let us make man, means that Elohim regenerates man through the angels. It was through them Elohim said those word, let us make man, not through a son or holy spirit, which never was before creation. Elohim means God of gods. Angels are called little gods and so are men on earth, for Jesus said to the Jews, that in their writings they were called gods. Jesus said, Is it not written in your law, Ye are Gods? (John 10:34).

Let us quote from Adam Clarke's Commentary on his note on Acts 13:33, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

The human nature of our blessed Lord was begotten by the energy of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the blessed virgin; for as to his Divine nature, which is allowed to be God, it could neither be created nor begotten... the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is absolutely irreconcilable to reason, and contradictory to itself. Eternity is that which has had no beginning, nor stands with any reference to time: Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation: therefore, the rational conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity, is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas. - Adam Clarke

Harry :fadein: