What does the word PERSON mean

[Orthodoxy]

Jesus Christ is not the eternal Son, or Son from eternity before creation. Jesus Christ was born in time, born to the virgin Mary.

The eternal Son theory is not scriptural.

Let us all get our bibles out and erase John 17:5:

Jesus Christ speaking, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Arius, a priest of the Church in the 3rd century declared "there was a time when Jesus Christ was not". It appears you side with Arius in this claim. The council of the Church in Nicea 325 ad dealt at length and in depth with his heresy and soundly condemned his and your theology as blaphemous heresy.

Read it here:

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm

Old heresy is still heresy. Nothing new under the sun.

Of that man and the fate which befell him, you have doubtless heard or will hear, lest we should seem to trample upon one who has already received a fitting reward because of his own sin. Such indeed was the power of his impiety that Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais shared in the consequences, for they too suffered the same fate.

The traditional story to the fate of this man is quite interesting indeed. Who has bewitched you?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Too those who are thinking of God's name called Elohim, and trying convince themselves that there were three persons before creation; let us make man, means that Elohim regenerates man through the angels. It was through them Elohim said those word, let us make man, not through a son or holy spirit, which never was before creation. Elohim means God of gods. Angels are called little gods and so are men on earth, for Jesus said to the Jews, that in their writings they were called gods. Jesus said, Is it not written in your law, Ye are Gods? (John 10:34).

Complete and utter nonsense. The Father was saying to the "angels" "let us make man in OUR image"? Angels are now creators? God is the likeness of an angel? God consulted the angels? Are not angels created beings?

What man is, God once was. What God is man can become? Is that your claim?

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: Genesis 1.

God is talking to angels in this verse?

Excuse me but I smell a mormon, JW or is this the new "ecumenicalism" of the heterodox faith. This is the "new and improved Jesus Christ of the protestant christian faith, a created angel? Is there any so called protestant christian on the board that is going to refute this trash for what it is? Has the protestant religion sunk to the low of accepting this version of Jesus Christ?

The Church boldly claims this jesus christ as stated in this quote is an imposter, a misrepresentation, a fraud, phoney.

Lord have mercy.

Orthodoxy

 

[SpiritualSon]

Jesus Christ is not the eternal Son, or Son from eternity before creation. Jesus Christ was born in time, born to the virgin Mary.

The eternal Son theory is not scriptural.

Let us all get our bibles out and erase John 17:5:

Jesus Christ speaking, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

Arius, a priest of the Church in the 3rd century declared "there was a time when Jesus Christ was not". It appears you side with Arius in this claim. The council of the Church in Nicea 325 ad dealt at length and in depth with his heresy and soundly condemned his and your theology as blaphemous heresy.

Read it here:

http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum01.htm

Old heresy is still heresy. Nothing new under the sun.

[quote:16fa7]Of that man and the fate which befell him, you have doubtless heard or will hear, lest we should seem to trample upon one who has already received a fitting reward because of his own sin. Such indeed was the power of his impiety that Theonas of Marmarica and Secundus of Ptolemais shared in the consequences, for they too suffered the same fate.

The traditional story to the fate of this man is quite interesting indeed. Who has bewitched you?

Orthodoxy[/quote:16fa7]

Orthodoxy.
"In the beginning the Word was with God, and God was the Word." "With God," is in God; for wisdom is in love, and love in wisdom. So in another place in John: And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was (John 17:5). "With Thine own Self," is in Thyself, and therefore it is said, "and God was the Word;" and elsewhere, that the Lord is in the Father, and the Father in Him; and that He and the Father are one, as Soul and Body of Jesus Christ. Therefore the Word is the Divine Truth of the Divine Good, it follows that it is Jehovah Himself, is the Lord by whom all things were made that are made; for all things have been created from Divine Good by means of Divine Truth.

The reason why it pleased Jehovah God the Father to be born a Man under the name Jesus Christ, was that He might put on the Human actually, and make it Divine, in order to save the human race. Know therefore that Our Lord Jesus Christ is Jehovah Himself or the Father in a human form, which also the Lord Himself teaches in John:
I and the Father are one (John 10:30). This means Body and Soul of the Lord make one Person.
Jesus said, From henceforth ye have known and have seen the Father; He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me (John 14:7, 9, 11).

All things that are Mine are Thine, and all Thine are Mine (John 17:10). The Father is not a person, because the Father is the Soul of Jesus Christ. No one seen the Father. Every person has an innerself and an outerself. The innerself is the soul, and the outerself acts by the commands of the innerself. It is the behavior of the outerself of a person that cause us to know the inner self of that person. That's why Jesus said, "No one goes to the Father, but be Me. It is by His outerself that we come to His innerself, which is the Father. The inner and outerself of Jesus Christ, which is the Father and Son, makes one Divine Person. Now is that hard to understand?

Harry :fadein:

 

[Orthodoxy]

Harry,

I understand your theology very well. It is all thought out very well, as it should be since it is very old stuff. Unfortunately it is not what the Church has always taught and understood as that which was delievered by the saints. What you discribe is not what the Church teaches.

What you have done is make God a man. God is not a man. Why did God tell man He is One anyway? Is that not obvious to man? Why did He bother telling man He is One God? I believe it is because God has revealed Himself to man as three distinct persons who collectively can be called God and individually can be called God. That is who God is. Three persons make up the one "essance" called God.


Let me get this straight: The Father is the "soul" of the person called God. The Holy Spirit is the "spirit" of the person called God. The Son, Jesus Christ, is the "body" of the person called God. All three "characters" make up the person we call God. Right? Do I get your position? Just so we are on the same page. And all this is due to the fact man has a "spirit, soul and body" thus the person called God must be like "a man".

The Father is not a person without the Son and the Holy Spirit? is that your understanding? Jesus Christ is a created person of God the Father merely to contain the Father?

31 facts Jesus is NOT the Father

1. Adam and Eve ONE Flesh (Genesis 2:24) Obviously the Word one in this verse is speaking of two persons (Adam and Eve) being One. The word one in this verse is the same word Jesus used in describing the unity between the Father and Himself as being One (John 10:30). Also in Genesis 3:22 it says, “Man has become “One of Us†this word One is also used as a plurality of persons. Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, “Behold, the people is One.†This obviously shows a plurality of persons using the word One. In Hebrew the word One in Duet 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD†is echad which means united as One as well as One in number and is obviously used to mean composite unity not absolute unity. In 1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and One Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.†This is indisputable evidence to the fact that God the Father is one person and Jesus Christ the Son is another person. This does not exclude Jesus Christ from the Godhead any more that is excludes the Father from Lordship. Both the Father and the Son are God and Lord. Over and Over the word one is used to define a plurality of persons examples are found in John 11:52, John 17:11, 21-23, Acts 4:32, Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 12:12-28, Romans 15:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:16-17, 1 Corinthians 10:17, Galatians 3:28, Eph 1:10, Eph 2:14-16, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 2:2, Hebrews 2:11, 1 Peter 3:8.

2. The Father was in heaven the all the time Jesus was on the Earth. Matthew 5:16, 48

3. Christ now sits at the right hand of the Father. Acts 2:33-34 ; Acts 7:54, Romans 8:34

4. Two Lords are sitting side by side in Heaven. Pslams 110:1, 5; Matthew 22:44; 26:64; Acts 2:33-34; Acts 7:54, Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 22:3.

5. Jesus said He would confess men BEFORE MY FATHER, proving He is NOT the Father Matthew 11:25, John 17.

6. The Father exists OUTSIDE the Body of Jesus Christ, so the Father CANNOT be Jesus the Son. Matthew 2:12, 3:17, 17:5, John 12: 27-30.

7. Jesus always prayed to the Father as a separate person Matthew 11:25, John 17.

8. Both Jesus and Satan referred to a God as separate from the “Jesus†Matthew 4: 6-10.

9. In parables Jesus illustrated His relationship to the Father as separate persons Matthew21: 33-46, John 15:1-8.

10. Men are taught to go directly to the Father and not to pray to Jesus John 14:12-15; 15:16, 16:23-26.

11. The Father knew things Jesus did not know. Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7.

12. Others saw Jesus as a separate person from the Father. Daniel 7:9-14, Acts 7:56.

13. Jesus committed His own Spirit to the Father. Luke 23:46

14. Jesus claimed He came from God and was going back to God John 8:42, 16:5, 10:36, 17:8.

15. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God not the Father John 5:17-35

16. Jesus called God, My Father, 57 times even after the resurrection John 15:1, Revelation 2:27

17. Jesus called the Father My God even after the resurrection John 20:17, Revelation 3:12

18. When Jesus was born on the earth angels and men still recognized God in Heaven. Luke 2:7-16.

19. Mary and Joseph presented Jesus , the Lord God to God in heaven Luke 2:22.

20. Jesus said He could not and did not do anything of Himself, but that the Father worked through Him John 5:19, 30; 6:38; 8:28; 12:49-50.

21. The Doctrine of Jesus was not His but that of the Father. John 7:16-17; 8:26.

22. Jesus did not come to do His own will but the will of the Father who sent Him, proving Jesus has a will separate from the Father. John 5:30; 6:38.

23. Two Lords are referred to in Genesis 19:24 one in heaven and one on the earth.

24. Three self acting persons, the Lord God, the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit are referred to blessing, anointing, sending and doing things for one another in Isaiah11:2, 42:1-7, 48:16, 59:21, 61:1-2, 63:1-14, Zechariah 12:10-13:2.

25. The Father (Matthew 3:17), Jesus (John 1038), angels (Luke 1:32-35), demons (Mark 3:11; 5:7), and the Apostles (Matthew16:16; John 1:14; Romans 8:32; 2 John 3) ALL declare the SONSHIP of Jesus Christ, but NOT ONCE do they declare a Christ-fatherhood.

26. The word BOTH is used of the Father and the Son proving 2 persons. John 15:24; 2 John 9.

27. The word ALSO is used of the Father and the Son proving 2 persons. John 5:19, 27; 8:19; 13:32; 14:1.

28. The statement “they have not known the Father, NOR ME†proves 2 persons. (John 16:3, 5)

29. Jesus was resurrected and exalted by the Father, so He cannot be the Father (Ephesians 1:20-23; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22)

30. Six times in John 14:1-9 Jesus made it clear He was not the Father.

31. Over 80 times Jesus affirms that He was not the Father and not the only person in the Godhead. Christ was the speaker but not the one spoken of or to Matthew 7:21, 11:27, 18:10, 35; Luke 2:49; John 5:17-42, 8:19-49, 10:17-37, 14:7-28, 15:1-26; Revelation 1:1; etc…

Is it any wonder that the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, and the unity of God are so mysterious when we force separate persons to become only one person all because we don’t want to recognize the true meaning of the word one referring to unity not individuality in many scriptures? Men would be just as great a mystery if we forced ALL MEN to refer to ONE PERSON!

Lord have mercy!

Orthodoxy

 

[SpiritualSon]

Who was Jesus praying too in the garden?
While He was in the world the Lord had two states, one called the state of humiliation or emptying out [exinanitio], and the other the state of glorification or unition with the Divine in Himself called the Father. He was in the state of humiliation at the time and in the degree that He was in the human from the mother; and in that of glorification at the time and in the degree that He was in the Human from the Father. In the state of humiliation He prayed to the Father as to one who was other than Himself; but in the state of glorification He spoke with the Father as with Himself. In this latter state He said that the Father was in Him and He in the Father, and that the Father and He were one. But in the state of humiliation He underwent temptations, and suffered the cross, and prayed to the Father not to forsake Him. For the Divine in Him could not be tempted, much less could it suffer the cross.

Harry :fadein:

 

[SpiritualSon]

Harry,

I understand your theology very well. It is all thought out very well, as it should be since it is very old stuff. Unfortunately it is not what the Church has always taught and understood as that which was delievered by the saints. What you discribe is not what the Church teaches.

What you have done is make God a man. God is not a man. Why did God tell man He is One anyway? Is that not obvious to man? Why did He bother telling man He is One God? I believe it is because God has revealed Himself to man as three distinct persons who collectively can be called God and individually can be called God. That is who God is. Three persons make up the one "essance" called God.


Let me get this straight: The Father is the "soul" of the person called God. The Holy Spirit is the "spirit" of the person called God. The Son, Jesus Christ, is the "body" of the person called God. All three "characters" make up the person we call God. Right? Do I get your position? Just so we are on the same page. And all this is due to the fact man has a "spirit, soul and body" thus the person called God must be like "a man".

The Father is not a person without the Son and the Holy Spirit? is that your understanding? Jesus Christ is a created person of God the Father merely to contain the Father?

31 facts Jesus is NOT the Father

1. Adam and Eve ONE Flesh (Genesis 2:24) Obviously the Word one in this verse is speaking of two persons (Adam and Eve) being One. The word one in this verse is the same word Jesus used in describing the unity between the Father and Himself as being One (John 10:30). Also in Genesis 3:22 it says, “Man has become “One of Us†this word One is also used as a plurality of persons. Genesis 11:6 And the LORD said, “Behold, the people is One.†This obviously shows a plurality of persons using the word One. In Hebrew the word One in Duet 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD†is echad which means united as One as well as One in number and is obviously used to mean composite unity not absolute unity. In 1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but One God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and One Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.†This is indisputable evidence to the fact that God the Father is one person and Jesus Christ the Son is another person. This does not exclude Jesus Christ from the Godhead any more that is excludes the Father from Lordship. Both the Father and the Son are God and Lord. Over and Over the word one is used to define a plurality of persons examples are found in John 11:52, John 17:11, 21-23, Acts 4:32, Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 12:12-28, Romans 15:5-6, 1 Corinthians 6:16-17, 1 Corinthians 10:17, Galatians 3:28, Eph 1:10, Eph 2:14-16, Philippians 1:27, Philippians 2:2, Hebrews 2:11, 1 Peter 3:8.

2. The Father was in heaven the all the time Jesus was on the Earth. Matthew 5:16, 48

3. Christ now sits at the right hand of the Father. Acts 2:33-34 ; Acts 7:54, Romans 8:34

4. Two Lords are sitting side by side in Heaven. Pslams 110:1, 5; Matthew 22:44; 26:64; Acts 2:33-34; Acts 7:54, Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22; Revelation 22:3.

5. Jesus said He would confess men BEFORE MY FATHER, proving He is NOT the Father Matthew 11:25, John 17.

6. The Father exists OUTSIDE the Body of Jesus Christ, so the Father CANNOT be Jesus the Son. Matthew 2:12, 3:17, 17:5, John 12: 27-30.

7. Jesus always prayed to the Father as a separate person Matthew 11:25, John 17.

8. Both Jesus and Satan referred to a God as separate from the “Jesus†Matthew 4: 6-10.

9. In parables Jesus illustrated His relationship to the Father as separate persons Matthew21: 33-46, John 15:1-8.

10. Men are taught to go directly to the Father and not to pray to Jesus John 14:12-15; 15:16, 16:23-26.

11. The Father knew things Jesus did not know. Mark 13:32; Acts 1:7.

12. Others saw Jesus as a separate person from the Father. Daniel 7:9-14, Acts 7:56.

13. Jesus committed His own Spirit to the Father. Luke 23:46

14. Jesus claimed He came from God and was going back to God John 8:42, 16:5, 10:36, 17:8.

15. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God not the Father John 5:17-35

16. Jesus called God, My Father, 57 times even after the resurrection John 15:1, Revelation 2:27

17. Jesus called the Father My God even after the resurrection John 20:17, Revelation 3:12

18. When Jesus was born on the earth angels and men still recognized God in Heaven. Luke 2:7-16.

19. Mary and Joseph presented Jesus , the Lord God to God in heaven Luke 2:22.

20. Jesus said He could not and did not do anything of Himself, but that the Father worked through Him John 5:19, 30; 6:38; 8:28; 12:49-50.

21. The Doctrine of Jesus was not His but that of the Father. John 7:16-17; 8:26.

22. Jesus did not come to do His own will but the will of the Father who sent Him, proving Jesus has a will separate from the Father. John 5:30; 6:38.

23. Two Lords are referred to in Genesis 19:24 one in heaven and one on the earth.

24. Three self acting persons, the Lord God, the Messiah, and the Holy Spirit are referred to blessing, anointing, sending and doing things for one another in Isaiah11:2, 42:1-7, 48:16, 59:21, 61:1-2, 63:1-14, Zechariah 12:10-13:2.

25. The Father (Matthew 3:17), Jesus (John 1038), angels (Luke 1:32-35), demons (Mark 3:11; 5:7), and the Apostles (Matthew16:16; John 1:14; Romans 8:32; 2 John 3) ALL declare the SONSHIP of Jesus Christ, but NOT ONCE do they declare a Christ-fatherhood.

26. The word BOTH is used of the Father and the Son proving 2 persons. John 15:24; 2 John 9.

27. The word ALSO is used of the Father and the Son proving 2 persons. John 5:19, 27; 8:19; 13:32; 14:1.

28. The statement “they have not known the Father, NOR ME†proves 2 persons. (John 16:3, 5)

29. Jesus was resurrected and exalted by the Father, so He cannot be the Father (Ephesians 1:20-23; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22)

30. Six times in John 14:1-9 Jesus made it clear He was not the Father.

31. Over 80 times Jesus affirms that He was not the Father and not the only person in the Godhead. Christ was the speaker but not the one spoken of or to Matthew 7:21, 11:27, 18:10, 35; Luke 2:49; John 5:17-42, 8:19-49, 10:17-37, 14:7-28, 15:1-26; Revelation 1:1; etc…

Is it any wonder that the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, and the unity of God are so mysterious when we force separate persons to become only one person all because we don’t want to recognize the true meaning of the word one referring to unity not individuality in many scriptures? Men would be just as great a mystery if we forced ALL MEN to refer to ONE PERSON!

Lord have mercy!

Orthodoxy

Orthodoxy,

The Divine Essence of God is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom or Divine Good and Divine Truth. Jehovah God came into this world as Divine Truth, which is the Word, but Divine Truth was never divided from the Divine Good. Jehovah God came into this world under the name Jesus Christ, because the name Jesus means Divine Good, and the name Christ means Divine Truth. A person without charity, can't bring themself to say the name Jesus, because the name Jesus also means charity, and name Christ means faith. Good is of charity, and charity is of good. Truth is of faith, and faith is of truth. Love, good and charity is of the will in man. Truth, wisdom, faith is of the understanding. On most Catholic forums they use the name Christ more offen than Jesus.

In the beginning the Word was with God, and God was the Word. With God, is in God; for Divine Truth is in Divine Good, and Divine Good is in Divine Truth, as to be one, as the Father and Son are one in Jesus Christ.

So in another place in John: And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own Self, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was (John 17:5). "With Thine own Self," is in Thyself, and therefore it is said, "and God was the Word;" and elsewhere, that the Lord is in the Father, and the Father in Him; and that He and the Father are one.

How the Father and Son can be the same Person:
To sit at the right hand does not mean to sit at the right hand with another person, it means God's Divine Omnipotence through the Human that He assumed in the world under the name Jesus Christ, which means Divine Good and Divine Truth. By means of this He is in things last as well as in things first. By means of this He entered and overthrew and subjugated the hells. By means of this He restored order in the heavens. And by means of this He redeemed both men and angels, and will continue to redeem for ever. The 'right hand' means here Divine Omnipotence, as it does in Isaiah: My hand hath founded the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens Isaiah 47:13.

Jehovah hath sworn by His right hand and by the arm of His strength Isaiah 62:8.

Thy right hand doth hold Me up Psalm 18:35.

All redemption and salvation was none through the Human the Father had assumed in the world. Redemption is impossible without the Father's Human. The Father has always been Divinely Human.

Harry


Harry

 

[Simonline]

It seems to me that those who support the Oneness teaching (the ancient heresy of Sabellianism or 'Modalism') are failing to make the distinction between 'Being' and 'Person' coupled with the fact that their starting point is what they know from experience rather than Divine Revelation.

God's revelation of Himself to Mankind was progressive rather than 'complete' from the start. This is because God wanted to give his finite creatures time to properly assimilate the different facets of both his Nature and his Character.

First of all God revealed that he was personal in Nature and that as a personal Being he could commune with those personal beings whom he created in his own image (Gen.1-3).

Further down the line God revealed that he was strictly One God (Deut.6:4) and that apart from him no other Divine Being existed [though there were multiple 'gods', both heavenly and earthly, the strict definition of a 'god' being 'that which has power and authority over another' therefore whoever (or whatever) is invested with power and/or authority over us, either by God [Ex.7:1; Ps.82:6; Rom.13:1-7] or by ourselves [Ex.20:3], is de facto a 'god' over us. God never says 'Thou shalt have no other gods' since God himself has set 'gods' over us [Rom.13:1-7]. What he says is 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me' (Ex.20:3)] (Isa.43:10-13).

Eventually, through his supreme revelation of himself (as simultaneously the Infinite Divine Creator and a finite human creature) in the Person of the Messiah (Heb.1) God fully revealed his Trinitarian Nature.

This is what John is referring to in the opening verses of his Gospel (Jn.1:1-14) where he emphatically declares In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God (v.1)

This tells us:
a) that 'In the begining', i.e. before anything else was either created or existed, the Word existed. This means that the Word is Eternal and not a finite created being (cf. Gen.1:1; Phil.1:15-17).
b) that 'In the begining' the Word was WITH God. This means that the Word and 'God' [a reference to the conventional Jewish [though not Biblical] understanding of God as a strictly Unitarian 'Father'] are separate and distinct Persons (but not Beings).
and c) that 'In the begining' the Word WAS God. In other words, whilst being separate and distinct Persons they were also one and the same Eternal Being.

John then goes on to launch a full frontal assault on the heresy of Gnosticism by emphatically declaring that the Eternal Being who is God (a.k.a. the Word), far from remaining aloof in 'unsullied perfection' whilst getting 'others' to do his 'dirty work' of creating and sustaining the 'sinful' material realm for him, actually incarnated ['became flesh'] and dwelt [i.e. 'tabernacled'/'set up home'] amongst us. John emphatically declared this in order to demonstrate that the Creation was strictly God's own handiwork and that, being his own handiwork, it was 'very good' (Gen.1:31). Furthermore, to prove the point, God was quite willing to incarnate into his material realm and in doing so bestow upon it his 'seal of approval' as HIS creation. Therefore the material creation must be affirmed and enjoyed rather than denegrated, despized, and a thing from which to escape, as the Gnostics taught.

The important point for this discussion is that there are multiple passages within the Judeo-Christian Scriptures which, ulterior motives and theological presuppositions notwithstanding, clearly teach multiple Persons within the One Divine Being who is God.

If we start from the human creature who, being finite, has, by definition, to be unitarian in nature (i.e. one being/one person) and then try and project that back onto God (in contravention of God's own revelation concerning his Divine Nature as Trinitarian) instead of starting from God's own revelation of himself as Infinite Trinitarian (the fundamental pre-requisite of God being Love (1Jn.4:8)) rather than Unitarian, and then scaling down from that revelation of God as Trinitarian, to the finite unitarian creature that is Man, then it is hardly surprizing that we arrive at the wrong conclusions?!

Simonline.