What is heresy?

[JLB]

Obviously there is veeeery wide diversity on the subject.

I believe "believers" are baptized by His Spirit, unseen.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Did we see any of that with our eyes? Uh, no.

People who have received the Holy Spirit, [Baptized with the Spirit], has evidence that is seen or heard.

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19


JLB

 

[smaller]

Evidently you need to get a solid grasp of the meaning of Christian baptism, which is as far from legalism as you can get. Even John's baptism had nothing to do with legalism. So please study the matter since it is a command of Christ.

Any command with a penalty clause is no different than a LAW.

So, those who call upon Jesus to save them are saved? Or not, if they don't do full immersion (or any other given construct of baptism)?

When we say not, then it's legalism. Doing that work to be saved rather than the simple call of faith, and that settling the matter.

Vast numbers of churches have taken N.T. matters and turned them into the equivalence of laws with eternal penalty clauses. No different than trying to be saved under the law by performances.

 

[smaller]

I agree. That is why I wrote, "The NT ekklesia was not only viewed as a hairesis". The ekklesia includes the Apostles and anyone else "in Christ".

Your dissection of heresy was accurate. And I'm sure we'd also agree that every Word of God is and remains valid as well. How that might be could remain a question, just as it was between Paul and the pharisees of Judaism or Paul and other Apostles as well, such as his engagement with Peter in Galatians.

 

[JLB]

This often confuses me and worries me.

Let's say I believe once saved always saved but you say you can lose your salvation.
Let's say I don't believe you need to be baptised to be saved but you do.

One of is right and therefore the other must be wrong. That being the case is that heresy? If so what are the consequences of that when we stand before Jesus?

Does the following apply to the one who is wrong

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Or as I have been told because I believe once saved always saved then I'm going to hell along with those that I am sending there because of what I have told them (please note that I don't in this context believe in greasy grace, I.e it's a licence to sin and I'm not looking for a discussion on this)

In simple terms, a heresy is a teaching whose origin is from a source other than God.

It's a strategy of Satan to capture the mind of people, with a concept that blinds their mind against the truth of God.

This is the main idea of a stronghold.

A stronghold is a fortified place within the person's mind, that allows Satan to build deception within the mind and heart of a person.

It's the seed of false doctrine.


Heresy - hairesis - G139

1. 
   
   
   • act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
   • choosing, choice
   • that which is chosen
   • a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
     1. of the Sadducees
        
        
     2. of the Pharisees
        
        
     3. of the Christians
   • dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims

JLB

 

[smaller]

People who have received the Holy Spirit, [Baptized with the Spirit], has evidence that is seen or heard.

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

JLB

There are vast numbers of deviations between churches. For some churches confession by faith is not enough. They must add full immersion to the list of requirements. For some this is not enough either and they add speaking in tongues.

and on and on it goes. Such lists of performances with eternal penalty clauses in many cases can be quite lengthy, depending on the whims of who is trying to potentially damn that believer to hell.

It's one of the more detestable aspects of christianity, and the basis of the divisions of the whole lot, generally speaking.

Do you want to be a christian? I guess any takers better check all the various rule books before actually deciding which ones are right or how many pieces of each rule book are right, etc etc. before they make any decisions because every sect will probably say that the eternal fate of such depends on adhering to the group's determinations on an assorted array of matters.

And then it goes on even further and deeper. Freewillism vs. determinism vs. any numbers of vast cuts and slices inbetween such as hyper determinism or open theism.

It can be quite an array of postures to sort through.

 

[JLB]

There are vast numbers of deviations between churches. For some churches confession by faith is not enough. They must add full immersion to the list of requirements. For some this is not enough either and they add speaking in tongues.

and on and on it goes. Such lists of performances with eternal penalty clauses in many cases can be quite lengthy, depending on the whims of who is trying to potentially damn that believer to hell.

It's one of the more detestable aspects of christianity, and the basis of the divisions of the whole lot, generally speaking.

Do you want to be a christian? I guess any takers better check all the various rule books before actually deciding which ones are right or how many pieces of each rule book are right, etc etc. before they make any decisions because every sect will probably say that the eternal fate of such depends on adhering to the group's determinations on an assorted array of matters.

And then it goes on even further and deeper. Freewillism vs. determinism vs. any numbers of vast cuts and slices inbetween such as hyper determinism or open theism.

It can be quite an array of postures to sort through.

People who have received the Holy Spirit, [Baptized with the Spirit], has evidence that is seen or heard.

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33


14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48



JLB

 

[smaller]

People who have received the Holy Spirit, [Baptized with the Spirit], has evidence that is seen or heard.

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:33

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:14-19

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48

JLB

You make the case in points. Perhaps where you are it's quite a long list. Confession of faith, full immersion, speaking in tongues, confession of sins for forgiveness, freewill only, and who knows what else may be attached to such items as the Lords Supper and church attendance and tithing requirements, etc etc.

In some rather large orthodox sects the believers are told that they can't even be sure they are saved. They only have what is called "reasonable assurance" if they are playing by all the rules.

 

[iLOVE]

Ok let's say you don't get bptised before you die

Baptism is a good work, but not a sufficient work to make us right with God. Baptism is a symbol, a sign of our relationship with Jesus, but the water that we get baptize in doesn't save us. The "Blood of Jesus" saves us. Baptism is important, but not essential. The only thing that is necessary for salvation is: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12):

 

[OzSpen]

Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Acts 28:22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
​

The NT ekklesia was not only viewed as a hairesis, but it's "ringleader" Paul was as well. Even those outside of the ekklesia looked upon them as a hairesis. This shows two possible views; 1) the NT ekklesia was indeed a hairesis, not necessarily in a bad sense, but in the sense that they made different choices concerning beliefs 2) that even though one is considered a hairesis, that assessment may be false. We need to be careful of how we label others or what we accuse them of.

That's because hairesis also meant a sect (as I've shown in my post above). However, the departure from sound doctrine, as in Gnosticism, Nestorianism, Arianism, etc., in the early church was a promotion of false doctrine when compared with the truth of Scripture (which was handed down as oral tradition in the early days).

 

[Wrg1405]

Malachi I asked you a question on your first post as "Ok let's say you don't get baptised before you die"

You responded "For one thing it will prove that you are not a genuine Christian, since you have refused to obey Christ. Obedience is proof of salvation"

When I started this post I did say that I did not want to go down the realm of discussing doctrinal issues but just wanted to know what heresy was and if we have differences what happens when we stand before Jesus.

This post seems to have gone down the road that did not want to walk on, and I'm sorry to all of you if I gave the opposite impression. I don't think I have as Rollo said "Oh Bill, they're just not listening"

The reason I am posting now is because of your response above.

I have 4 kids. All beleive in Jesus. My wife and I have always prayed that they would get baptised. They know about baptism as they have seen it in our church. Jack who is 18 was baptised 6th July 2013, so he was 16, Katie who is now 16 was baptised 25th March 2012 when she was 13.

My two other daughters Lucy 13 and Emma 12 have not been baptised. 3 weeks ago Emma came home after youth group and asked to be baptised. I sobbed my heart out and praised God and as it happens she will be baptised on Easter Sunday. Lucy as of yet has not asked to be baptised.

I'm really sorry if I'm wrong and I have to be honest I'm upset by your post and correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's say Jack died 5th July 2013, Katie died 24th March 2012, Emma and Lucy die tomorrow. Are you telling me because they have not been baptised they are not genuine Christians?

Last year my 20 year on nephew got baptised. He came to speak to me concerning baptism. He did not feel that he could get baptised because he did not feel worthy, he had sin in his life and he felt he needed to stop sinning. I said to him "If you wait till you stop sinning you ain't ever going to be baptised, Jesus died for you as a sinner, he is interceding for you as a sinner and he has forgiven you of all your sins, go be baptised because of what he has done for you, not because of what you can do for him" Three weeks late he was baptised. Let's say he died the night before? Then what?

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's okay. I hold to the Nicene Creed, so I'm good to go at Judgement time. :wink

Brother, he Nicene Creed is not a bad thing but neither is it the Word of God as is the Bible. And I have never met a person that the Spirit that indwells me is comfortable with their status in this realm that is not, at least, trying to connect, directly, with Him to get to the influence of Jesus, our Savior. And you know, all that creed has to say is a good summation of truth, as per the scriptures, but summation is all it is and when they arrive at their belief in the remission of sins because of Baptism, the Creed goes hard left and off track.

i.e. I was baptized as 'the' demonstration of my obedience because I was indwelt of the Holy Spirit and was saved when I gave up my career in the entertainment world. Baptism did not was my sins away, Baptism was the demonstration of my Contract For Obedience to the Triune God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit that indwells my heart.

The Creeds will not save you from Eternal Hell but Jesus, the Jesus of the scriptures will.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I wasn't saying that Arminianism was risky. I was responding to a thread above referencing a TULIP believer as being risky ( assuming I interpreted correctly) So I was just asking the reverse. Two different views of which only one can be right. So as I've said above what happens before Christ when two people stand before Christ one who holds onto TULIP and the other Aminianism?

But see, you misread what I said, assuming you speak about my post because i said both of the major stances are risky but I did not nor do I seek to proclaim them heretical because though both ignore (correcting myself) portions of scripture, both still fall within the Pail of Orthodoxy. The risk comes into play when, in my honest opinion, we so hard to, as you stated, prove we are the only right ones.

We must never go there. Just as we are taught by the scriptures where the man arrives and seats himself at the rear of the assembly and the Host moves him to the front of the room, so must we never assume we are worthy before another for Jesus teaches us the least will be the first.

 

[Wrg1405]

But see, you misread what I said, assuming you speak about my post because i said both of the major stances are risky but I did not nor do I seek to proclaim them heretical because though both ignore (correcting myself) portions of scripture, both still fall within the Pail of Orthodoxy. The risk comes into play when, in my honest opinion, we so hard to, as you stated, prove we are the only right ones.

We must never go there. Just as we are taught by the scriptures where the man arrives and seats himself at the rear of the assembly and the Host moves him to the front of the room, so must we never assume we are worthy before another for Jesus teaches us the least will be the first.

Got you and I'm sorry if I misquoted you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Malachi I asked you a question on your first post as "Ok let's say you don't get baptised before you die"

You responded "For one thing it will prove that you are not a genuine Christian, since you have refused to obey Christ. Obedience is proof of salvation"

When I started this post I did say that I did not want to go down the realm of discussing doctrinal issues but just wanted to know what heresy was and if we have differences what happens when we stand before Jesus.

This post seems to have gone down the road that did not want to walk on, and I'm sorry to all of you if I gave the opposite impression. I don't think I have as Rollo said "Oh Bill, they're just not listening"

The reason I am posting now is because of your response above.

I have 4 kids. All beleive in Jesus. My wife and I have always prayed that they would get baptised. They know about baptism as they have seen it in our church. Jack who is 18 was baptised 6th July 2013, so he was 16, Katie who is now 16 was baptised 25th March 2012 when she was 13.

My two other daughters Lucy 13 and Emma 12 have not been baptised. 3 weeks ago Emma came home after youth group and asked to be baptised. I sobbed my heart out and praised God and as it happens she will be baptised on Easter Sunday. Lucy as of yet has not asked to be baptised.

I'm really sorry if I'm wrong and I have to be honest I'm upset by your post and correct me if I'm wrong.

Let's say Jack died 5th July 2013, Katie died 24th March 2012, Emma and Lucy die tomorrow. Are you telling me because they have not been baptised they are not genuine Christians?

Last year my 20 year on nephew got baptised. He came to speak to me concerning baptism. He did not feel that he could get baptised because he did not feel worthy, he had sin in his life and he felt he needed to stop sinning. I said to him "If you wait till you stop sinning you ain't ever going to be baptised, Jesus died for you as a sinner, he is interceding for you as a sinner and he has forgiven you of all your sins, go be baptised because of what he has done for you, not because of what you can do for him" Three weeks late he was baptised. Let's say he died the night before? Then what?

Like yourself, I regret this subject wandered but it is natural for it to go there. Tears of joy? This post caused them in my heart and surely your last child will also follow Jesus, you and your wife have set a path and without pressure your children follow. May God, please continue to bless.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Got you and I'm sorry if I misquoted you.

No rub, it happens a lot because my posts get to short at times. My bad.

 

[Wrg1405]

I

Like yourself, I regret this subject wandered but it is natural for it to go there. Tears of joy? This post caused them in my heart and surely your last child will also follow Jesus, you and your wife have set a path and without pressure your children follow. May God, please continue to bless.

I suppose the inclination/the natural is to go down this route. We all have something to say, we all have something we beleive to be true. Tears of Joy? Got to be honest tears of sadness. It seems that at times we ride roughshot over others. Not necessarily in love but in pride, pride of our opinions. I say that not to discourse others and their thoughts but when people say "If you teach or believe this then your sending people to hell and your leading them there" How sad is that?

 

[Wrg1405]

No rub, it happens a lot because my posts get to short at times. My bad.

Me thinks mine get to long at times.

 

[Malachi]

Doing that work to be saved rather than the simple call of faith, and that settling the matter.

Please go back and read carefully what was posted. It seems like you have a problem with obedience, and label obedience as "legalism". Legalism is attempting to be justified by the works of the Law. Obedience to Christ is PROOF that you are saved. Salvation is by grace through faith, but those who fail to obey after they claim to be saved are not really saved. So, once again, water baptism is the FIRST STEP of obedience to Christ, by one who is genuinely saved. Study Acts.

 

[Malachi]

Let's say Jack died 5th July 2013, Katie died 24th March 2012, Emma and Lucy die tomorrow. Are you telling me because they have not been baptised they are not genuine Christians?

1. First of all let's be very clear that only those who have been born again are Christians, and that the New Birth comes by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and turning from our sins and idols (John 1:12,13; Acts 3:19). Water baptism DOES NOT save. So a genuine Christian is one who has been born of God, born of the Spirit, born from above, born again.

2. Whoever shares the Gospel with children or adults cannot avoid teaching them that the day they get saved (or shortly thereafter), they must be baptized because that is Christ's command (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15,16; Luke 24:47).

3. After a person has been shown from Scripture what water baptism means for the believer, that person must obey Christ as commanded (Acts 10:44-48).

4. If a person refuses to be baptized as a believer, and claims that he or she is a genuine Christian, then they are simply deceiving themselves. They are already disobedient to God and Christ.

5. If a person goes around teaching others that water baptism is not a necessity for a believer and has not been commanded by Christ, then that is heresy. Why is it heresy? Because it clearly subverts and controverts the explicit teaching and commandment of Christ and the apostles.

 

[antipasta]

Brother, he Nicene Creed is not a bad thing but neither is it the Word of God as is the Bible. And I have never met a person that the Spirit that indwells me is comfortable with their status in this realm that is not, at least, trying to connect, directly, with Him to get to the influence of Jesus, our Savior. And you know, all that creed has to say is a good summation of truth, as per the scriptures, but summation is all it is and when they arrive at their belief in the remission of sins because of Baptism, the Creed goes hard left and off track.

i.e. I was baptized as 'the' demonstration of my obedience because I was indwelt of the Holy Spirit and was saved when I gave up my career in the entertainment world. Baptism did not was my sins away, Baptism was the demonstration of my Contract For Obedience to the Triune God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit that indwells my heart.

The Creeds will not save you from Eternal Hell but Jesus, the Jesus of the scriptures will.

Relax, my friend, I'm not suggesting that creeds or confessions replace the Bible.

However, the OP expressed concern over damnable heresy, and I'm suggesting to him the Nicene Creed as a simple way of remembering the essentials of the Faith and having peace of mind. Everything in the Bible is important and we strive to understand it all, but not everything is essential to Salvation. In other words, no one risks eternal damnation by being in error on the fine points of the TULIP, but the Trinity is kind of an important doctrine.

Let's not make Salvation hard. Stick to the Nicene Creed and we can argue all the other points.