[_ Old Earth _] What is the Soul?

[Drew]

Inspired in part by the ill-fated discussions on universal reconciliation, I have become intrigued by the question as to what is the "soul". And I use this word as it is commonly used - to refer to a "thing" that is part of what makes up a person: we commonly say a person = soul+body or soul+body+spirit. I am fully aware that a case can be made that the word "soul", as used in the Bible, refers to a "living person". Nevertheless, the word is commonly used in 21st century N. America to refer to the "ghost in the machine" and that is the meaning I will use.

I have heard arguments based on the scriptures to the effect that there is no such thing as an "immortal soul". While I am not prepared to argue this point on a Biblical basis (to my shame), I do find it appealing for a number of reasons that I will elaborate upon.

One of the problems with the idea of a soul as a "thing" or as a non-physical "substance" is something that I believe is called the "interaction problem". If the soul is a non-physical "thing", how does it interact with the physical body in which it is housed (as it seemingly must)?

Also, I like the simplicity of not having to posit the existence of something that is not explanatorily necessary. Why invoke the concept if it is not needed? I speculate (and I have only begun to think about this today) that we commonly call the "soul" may be simply a kind of necessary accompanyment to the action of the brain - when the brain processes information, the "lights" go on inside and we experience subjective existence - and we are therefore not zombies. So when one is asleep in a dreamless state, the "soul" effectively ceases to exist - it is a manifestation of a physical process, not a "thing". The question of why physical processes in the brain lead to the first person, subjective, experiential aspects of existence can be perhaps be answered by saying "this is just the way God may the physical world". To me this is no more of an explanatory cop-out than saying that gravity "just is" - at some point our explanations have to be founded on irreducible truths. So perhaps this is the case with the phenomenology that accompanies brain action - perhaps it is a basic fact of the way God made the world.

One might think this view is highly problematic for a Christian to hold. But why should this be so? We have Biblical reasons to believe that we will be given bodies in the life that is to come. So the soul is not lost as long as there is a body - the soul and the body are not different things that have to somehow be inter-connected. When the body is physically resurrected the soul re-appears necessarily. Of course, there may be problems with this view when the implications of it are worked out. Example: we are all sinners and yet there will be no sin when we are in heaven (which could be a "physical" place on this view). We will therefore need to be physically "altered" to take away our sinful nature. Remember that the view I am proposing claims that the phenomenology we call soul is a kind of by-product of brain processes, so we would expect that our disposition to sin has "physical" underpinnings. It might be argued that the radical and necessary restructuring of our brains (by God) would fundamentally change our identities. There may be lots of other problems.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Featherbop]

What are your thoughts?

A difficult topic, of course. IMO, this is not something meant to be understood in it's entirity here on earth.

Firstly, my opinion from the Biblical perspective is that 'souls' are either entirely, mostly, or at least partly physical objects. One's body, for instance, is a thing, and it is natural to identify one's self by his own body.

To elaborate, suppose that soul A and soul B were to switch bodies. Would they be the same person, they were before the switch, or would the different body affect who are are? I think it is the latter.

So, yes, I do assume that those who enter heaven and receive 'glorified' bodies, will be changed, (Note: I do beleive this is a 'good' thing.)
However, we do not possess one of these people, so the human soul cannot be fully understood currently.

Now, as to how the soul exists, I do see the idea that the soul is a natural product of the human brain's workings to be probable. We do know that people are changed drastically during sleep, when brain damage is done, etc. So, I suppose that this is enough to substanciate that change of the brain is enough to alter the soul.

I do not believe in the eternal soul, but I do not think that the idea has been disproven. Again, very difficult topic....


Marck

 

[keebs]

My stance is simple: the soul doesn't exist.

 

[keebs]

Why invoke the concept if it is not needed? I speculate (and I have only begun to think about this today) that we commonly call the "soul" may be simply a kind of necessary accompanyment to the action of the brain - when the brain processes information, the "lights" go on inside and we experience subjective existence - and we are therefore not zombies.

That's how I feel. What people call the soul is merely chemical reactions and synaptic firings in our brains.

 

[serapha]

What are your thoughts?

Hi there!

:smt039


The belief in body, soul and spirit as the parts of man is called trichotomy. Watchman Nee defines each part of the trichotomy. The body is man’s outward appearance. The soul is the personality, the will, the intellect and emotions of man. “The elements which make us human belong to the soulâ€Â. This would include ideals, thoughts, emotions, discernment, choice, decision. The spirit is defined with every communication of God and man including conscience, intuition, and communion. They are defined further by (Nee):

“The conscience is the discerning organ which distinguishes right and wrong; not however, through the influence of knowledge stored in the mind but rather by a spontaneous direct judgment.

“Intuition is the sensing organ of the human spirit... that knowledge which comes to us without any help from the mind, emotion or volition comes intuitive.

“Communion is worshiping God. The organs of the soul are incompetent to worship God. God is not apprehended by our thoughts, feelings or intentions, for He can only be known directly in our spirits.

The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary, Moody Press, 1988, defines spirit: The term soul specifies that in the immaterial part of man that concerns life, action, and emotion. Spirit is that part related to worship and divine communication.

Man was originally designed to commune with God through the spirit. That spirit in man would in turn put soul and body in subjection through obedience to God. The supernatural wisdom and power flowing from God would enter into the spirit of man and empower man to serve God. The human has a spirit, a soul, and a body of flesh. (A Christian Perspective, internet Bible Prophecy 3/10/96)

The spirit will see things in another dimension and relate those things back to our soul through the brain.


Those are my thoughts...


~serapha~

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

So this thing which is invisible and untouchable is magically able to control our bodies?
HA

No such thing has been found nor has had any evidence to support it. Our minds begin and end within our brains.

 

[reznwerks]

soul

There is no evidence for the reality of souls. If there is a God he certainly wouldn't need souls to control our consiousness. If something does in fact exist after one dies it is still probably subject to some laws of phyics and the evolutionary process of which man as yet hasn't a clue. Even if you believe in Christianity, heaven or hell do you think those things will still exist if the earth were destroyed?

 

[Drew]

Under the view that I am proposing (really just speculating), the soul simply ceases to exist upon physical death (remember it is not a "thing" in my speculations). However, God somehow preserves the information necessary to reconstitute the brain (or some version thereof) in the so-called "resurrection body". So the "soul" reappears at the time of the resurrection of the dead.

I suspect that you will agree that there are elements of this explanation that are more friendly to the prevailing physicalist view of our time - the soul is merely the phenomenology of the brain. Everyone can buy this. Of course, the part about God resurrecting destroyed brains is a lot more tricky. There appears to be no extra-Biblical reason to believe this. However, and this is an important point, there is nothing logically inconsistent about this position - its predictions are not in conflict with "the facts".

I still think there is at least one serious problem with the standard "soul-as-an-immaterial-entity" view - namely how can an immaterial soul "press the right physical buttons" in order to control the actions of the body it inhabits.

Oh, yes, one more little complication for my view (and for lots other views) - how can we rescue "free will" (if we need to) ? But that's a subject for another post.

 

[bibleberean]

07 The Spirit World
Rightly Dividing the Word, by Clarence Larkin, 1920

MAN'S RELATION TO THE "SPIRIT-WORLD"

Man in his physical and spiritual makeup, was made for two worlds, the Physical and the Spirit world. Writing to the Thessalonians Paul says,

"I pray God your whole `Spirit' and `Soul' and `Body' be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1Th 5:23.

Writing to the Hebrews he says-- "The Word of God is quick (alive), and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of `Soul' and `Spirit,' and of the `Joints and Marrow' (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12.

From these references we see that man is a Trinity, and is composed of "Body," "Soul," and "Spirit." Man was made in the "Image of God" and God is a Trinity.

The Tabernacle was a tent surrounded by a court, which court was enclosed by a curtain fence. (See diagram of The Tabernacle.)

The tent was divided into two parts, one twice the length of the other, by a "veil" or curtain. The larger part was entered from without by a curtained doorway, and contained the "Table of Shewbread," the "Altar of Incense," and the "Seven-Branched Candlestick."

This part was called the "Holy Place." The smaller part was entered from the "Holy Place" through the "veil" or dividing curtain, and contained the "Ark of the Covenant," on the lid of which, between the "Cherubims," God took up His residence in the "Shekinah Glory." This part was called the "Most Holy Place."

There were no windows in the Tabernacle, and the only entrance was through the curtained doorway into the "Holy Place." The Tabernacle and its Courtyard is a type of the "Threefold Nature of Man." The "Courtyard" represents his Body, the "Holy Place" his Soul, and the "Most Holy Place" his Spirit, and as there could be no communication between the "Courtyard" and the "Most Holy Place," only through the "Holy Place," so there can be no communication between a man's Body and Spirit only through his Soul.

After the completion of the Tabernacle it remained empty of the "Presence of God" until the "Spirit of God" descended and took up His abode in the "Most Holy Place." So a man may be complete as to body, soul and spirit, but his spiritual nature will remain unregenerate until the Holy Spirit enters and takes possession of the "spirit" compartment of his nature. This happens when the "New Birth" takes place.

The "Threefold Nature of Man" is clearly brought out in the Diagram The Threefold Nature of Man.

The outer circle stands for the "Body" of man, the middle for the "Soul," and the inner for the "Spirit," or what Paul calls the "CARNAL" (1Co 3:1-3); the "NATURAL" (1Co 2:14); and the "SPIRITUAL" (1Co 3:1), parts of man. In the outer circle the "Body" is shown as touching the Material World through the five senses of "Sight," "Smell," "Hearing," "Taste" and "Touch." The Gates to the "Soul" are "Imagination," "Conscience," "Memory," "Reason" and the "Affections."

The "Spirit" receives impressions of outward and material things through the Soul.

The "Spiritual Faculties" of the "Spirit"

are "Faith," "Hope," "Reverence," "Prayer" and "Worship." In his unfallen state the "Spirit" of man was illuminated from Heaven, but when the human race fell in Adam, sin closed the window of the Spirit, and pulled down the curtain, and the "chamber of the Spirit" became a Death Chamber, and remains so in every unregenerate heart, until the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the Holy Spirit floods that chamber with the "Life" and "Light" giving power of the NEW LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS.

We see then why the "natural" man cannot understand "spiritual" things. He cannot understand them until his spiritual nature has been renewed.

But the Spirit of the Natural man is not only darkened, his "Will" stands as a "guard" at the door, and prevents the entrance of the Holy Spirit, and it is not until the "Will" surrenders through the power of the "Sword of the Spirit," the "Word of God," that the Holy Spirit can enter and take up his abode in the "Spirit" of man.

When a man dies his "Soul" and "Spirit" separate from the "Body," and the "Body" is laid in the grave, but the "Spirit" is not "bodiless," it has what Paul calls its "PSYCHICAL" or "Soulish" Body. As this "Soulish Body" can hear, and speak, and think, and feel, it must have some "tangible" form. It is not a "ghostlike" structure. There are doubtless limitations in its use, or there would be no need for it to recover its "physical" body at the Resurrection.

That there is such a thing as the "Soulish Body" is brought out in the story of the "Rich Man and Lazarus." Lu 16:19-31. The story is not a Parable, but a description by Christ of something that really happened in the other world to his own personal knowledge. It declares that both Lazarus and the "Rich Man" died and were buried.

That is, their bodies were left on the earth. What happened to them in the "Underworld" then, is descriptive of what happened to them in their "disembodied state." In that state they were conscious and the Rich Man recognized Lazarus, which he could not have done if Lazarus had not a body, not his "physical" body, he left that on the earth, but his "Soulish" body. This is proof that the "Soulish" body is not simply a body, but that in its outward form and appearance it conforms to the earthly body of the owner, otherwise he would not be recognizable in the other world.

Again the "Rich Man" could see, and feel, and thirst, and talk, and remember, proving that he possessed his senses and had not lost his personality. This proves that there is no break, as "Soul Sleep," in the Continuity of Existence, or Consciousness, in passing from the "Earth-Life" to the "Spirit-Life." Sleep in the Scriptures always refers to the "Body," not to the "Soul," and the expression "Asleep in Jesus" refers to the Believer only.

Let us trace the life of the "Soul" and "Spirit" after they have left the "Body." In the account of the "Rich Man and Lazarus" we have a description of "THE UNDERWORLD." See the Chart of The Underworld.

"The Underworld" is made up of two compartments, "Paradise" and "Hell" (not the final Hell, that is "Gehenna" the "Lake of Fire") with an "Impassable Gulf" between.

At the bottom of the "Gulf" is the "Bottomless Pit," or "Abyss." This is a place of temporary confinement for "Evil Spirits" (Demons). It has a King-- "Apollyon," but is kept locked by God who commissions an angel to open it when He so desires. Re 9:1-16; 17:8; 20:1-3.

Before the resurrection of Christ the Soul and Spirit of the "Righteous Dead" went to the "Paradise" compartment of "The Underworld." There Christ met the "Penitent Thief" after His death on the Cross.

On the day of His Resurrection Christ's Soul and Spirit returned from "The Underworld." But He did not return alone. He brought back with Him all the occupants of the Paradise compartment and locked it up, and He now has the "Keys of Death and Hades." Re 1:18. R. V. Here "Death" stands for the "grave" and "Hades" for "The Underworld." Some of those who came back from "The Underworld" with Christ got their bodies, and ascended with Him as the "First Fruits" of the resurrection "from among the dead." Mt 27:52-53.

The rest were taken up to the "Third Heaven" where Paul was caught up. 2Co 12:1-4. Paul called it "Paradise." There all the "Righteous Dead" that have died since Christ's resurrection go that they may be "WITH THE LORD." Php 1:23; 2Co 5:8. There the souls of the "Righteous Dead" shall remain until the time comes for the resurrection of their bodies, then when Christ comes back to meet His Church in the Air, He will bring back the souls of the "Righteous Dead" from the "Paradise" of the "Third Heaven," for we are told that He will bring them whose bodies "Sleep in Jesus" on the earth WITH HIM (1Th 4:14), and they will continue on to the earth and get their "bodies" from the grave, and then ascend again together with the "Translated Saints" to meet the Lord IN THE AIR. See the Chart of The Underworld.

Clarence Larkin's Chart of the Spiritual Underworld

http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/underworld.gif

 

[Drew]

Greetings all:

I would still be interested in someone taking a serious shot at dealing with what I might call the "interaction problem" described in my earlier posts - how does something non-physical (like the immaterial soul that many believe in) interact with the physical body? This is a real problem with this view and it cannot simply be ignored. Its all fine to talk about an immaterial soul and a physical body, but someone needs to give an account of how they can possibly interact (as they so obviously do). Am I the only one who sees a major conceptual problem here?

 

[Free]

No, you are not the only one who wonders how they interact or sees it as a problem. I am currently studying this in my philosophy class - the mind/body problem. It seems that the current, and easiest, solution to the problem is to deny the immaterial soul as synaptic firings in the brain, as keebs already pointed out.

Biblically speaking, there sure seems to be more than just synaptic firings in the brain. The Bible makes it pretty clear that there is more to us than just a body. Although the term "soul" does mean "living being," it also has nuances that take it beyond that. It is worthy to note that it is not until God breathes into man that man becomes a "living being," a soul. Was God incapable of making man come alive and breath on his own without breathing into man? What exactly did God breath into man that caused him to come alive?

 

[Drew]

Hello Free:

You raise a good point in relation to the Biblical statement about God breathing life into man. If this statement is not "poetical", that is if we are to believe that "something" really was "added" to the body by God, then the viewpoint I am defending is in serious trouble (at least if one takes the Bible as authoritative). In other words, according to the view I have been defending, all God had to do was to make a human body and the subjective experiences (the "soul") would then come along for free. However, it appears that God made a body and then breathed life into it, as you point out.

Nevertheless, I am still very uncomfortable with the interaction problem.

One of the possibilities here is that we humans are limited in respect to the concepts that we are capable of coming up with. Some aspects of reality may simply be beyond the grasp of the mind. In the same way that it seems reasonable to assume that dogs could never understand the theory of relativity, humans may never be able to create an "explanation" for what we call the soul.

It seems a shame to consider the possibility that our efforts to understand may be ultimately doomed to failure.

 

[shernren]

I think that here we are addressing the issue of dualism versus holism. The view of "there is an immaterial soul and there is a physical body" is pretty much rooted in Greek philosophy, which likes to split things up - spiritual/secular, invisible/visible, temporal/eternal, soul/body etc. Note that soul/body separation was actually the central tenet of the Gnostics. Yep, duality in its extreme is actually anti-Christian heresy, because the Gnostics took it to imply that since the body is sin-screwed anyway, and the soul is not really affected by the body, what do I care about what I do to my body? That is the broad context of 1Cor 15, Paul's defense of the ressurection of the body, as well as that famous statement "Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit"...

But I don't really see why there is an "interaction problem", because if you take that thinking rigorously you will tear apart the Christian faith. What about angels, then? Why is it that sometimes we see them (Numbers 22: Balaam + angel = talking donkey X-D), which means they interact with the electromagnetic force, and that at other times we don't? Any "physical" object that doesn't interact with the electromagnetic force must interact with the gravitational force, in which case it will swiftly enter the nearest gravitational well i.e. the center of the earth; and if it doesn't interact with the gravitational force it can't really be said to "exist" since gravitational mass is equivalent to inertial mass.

Furthermore, what about God?? How does He interact with the universe? Either He's made of the same created stuff as the universe, in which case He is not The Uncreated O_o or He's not and cannot interact with the universe, which reduces to atheism (He didn't create the universe) or deism (He created the universe and then left it alone).

My disagreement with soul-body dualism is rather simple in reason: The Bible never mentions it. Anywhere. My pastor friend gives this challenge in seminary: show me where in the Bible it mentions the immortal soul and the physical body, and I'll show you a similar usage where the Bible divides it differently! Unfortunately dualism is so pervasive in Western theology that it affects even translation work, meaning that a word (ruach/psyche, if I'm not mistaken) which means the whole life of a person in general, is illegitimately translated into "soul".

My interpretation is that the soul, the body, the spirit etc. appear as different manifestations / facets of the human, perhaps in the same mysterious way that God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit make up the Trinity. It could be that we are looking at a gem from different sides: one facet has 3 sides, another has 5, another.... or like a vector: which has many components, many angles, but none of them exist as a "thing-in-itself" without the main vector.

What about death? I don't really get it either. But what my above pastor-friend said was that instead of the body dying and the soul rising, the whole person is "translated" into a "higher level of time" called eternity. The person pretty much "walks" into eternity and the substance of who he is, body, soul, spirit etc. is transformed to match: while what is left for us grievers here is merely an empty husk, a vacated chrysalis if you will.

No, I don't really get it either. XP but hope my 2 cents' worth makes some fun.

 

[stovebolts]

I watched a really neat documentary back in the late 80's where they were taking like x-ray pictures with gamma rays (or some kind of rays) of plants and it showed an ora around the plant. The scientist would then cut the leaf and quickly take a few more pictures.
Through the course of what I can remember as being around 7 minutes or so, the "Pictures" would still show the outline of the whole leaf, even though the leaf had been cut in half until finally, the picture would only show the physical, remaining portion of the leaf...
They used the time lapse (7 minutes or so, can't really remember) and made a direct comparison to how long the brain lived after the body died, and it was almost exactly the same...
Things that make ya go hmmmm. Maybe somebody could look this up if they feel inspired to do so.

 

[keebs]

EDITED FOR FLAMING AND DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER!

 

[Drew]

As readers of this thread will no doubt have discerned, I (like others such as shernren) have a real problem with mind-body dualism. The concept seems to have dubious Biblical support and I still say the "interaction problem" shows there is a fatal flaw with this view. Having read shernren's analogies, I am quite sympathetic to them. A human being is an integrated entity - a thing called the soul cannot be extricated.

I have no problem with saying that the overall puzzle is not yet solved. This is obvious to all - theists and atheists alike. I do feel that holding onto concepts that simply don't work (I would put the mind-body dualism that many Christians ascribe to in this category) is not helpful, however. There is a profound mystery here.

 

[stovebolts]

You're lying. Give us a source.

I have no need to lie and I cannot help it if you didn't watch the show for what ever reason.

If it doesn't spark your interest, then drop it. If it sparks your interest, you spend the time to find it. If anyone else saw the show or has any idea what I'm talking about, maybe you can assist.

Really though, if your looking for scientific "proof" of the soul, you won't find it. (for very long anyway) For the soul, is in essence the 'breath' and you cannot see the breath.

Science tells us that nothing stays in the same state for it is always changing. Regardless of what state something is in (going forward or going backward). Therefore, if you find the physical evidence of the soul for even for a few precious moments, it will change and vanish before your eyes.

Happy hunting.

 

[keebs]

Really though, if your looking for scientific "proof" of the soul, you won't find it. (for very long anyway) For the soul, is in essence the 'breath' and you cannot see the breath.

Yeah, but we can see our breath. Have you not gone outside in the cold?

Science tells us that nothing stays in the same state for it is always changing. Regardless of what state something is in (going forward or going backward). Therefore, if you find the physical evidence of the soul for even for a few precious moments, it will change and vanish before your eyes.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Science doesn't say that something has to stay in the same place, nor does assuming so help your argument at all because you cannot assume that proof just appears and dissappears either. There is plenty of proof out there for stuff that doesn't just vanish (in fact, I can't think of anything that does just "vanish"). So, go ahead, give me proof and let it vanish before your eyes (and not because things never stay in the same state, but because I know it'll be wrong).

 

[stovebolts]

Really though, if your looking for scientific "proof" of the soul, you won't find it. (for very long anyway) For the soul, is in essence the 'breath' and you cannot see the breath.

Yeah, but we can see our breath. Have you not gone outside in the cold?

Yes I have. And what you see, is not your breath, but an attribute of moisture when it hits cold air. To say that moisture is breath would be a false statement as moisture is only one attribute that is contained within your breath, but is not neccasarily your breath...

[quote:e02bc]Science tells us that nothing stays in the same state for it is always changing. Regardless of what state something is in (going forward or going backward). Therefore, if you find the physical evidence of the soul for even for a few precious moments, it will change and vanish before your eyes.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life. Science doesn't say that something has to stay in the same place, nor does assuming so help your argument at all because you cannot assume that proof just appears and disappears either.

Now, did I say that?? :roll: Nothing truly disappears, it simply changes it's state. :wink:

There is plenty of proof out there for stuff that doesn't just vanish (in fact, I can't think of anything that does just "vanish"). So, go ahead, give me proof and let it vanish before your eyes (and not because things never stay in the same state, but because I know it'll be wrong).

Like the frost coming from your breath, now you see it, now you don't. It hasn't vanished, it has simply changed states. :-D

You seem to search for proof of the soul? May I suggest you find out what the soul is, before you seek it.
[/quote:e02bc]

 

[Free]

As readers of this thread will no doubt have discerned, I (like others such as shernren) have a real problem with mind-body dualism. The concept seems to have dubious Biblical support and I still say the "interaction problem" shows there is a fatal flaw with this view. Having read shernren's analogies, I am quite sympathetic to them. A human being is an integrated entity - a thing called the soul cannot be extricated.

I have no problem with saying that the overall puzzle is not yet solved. This is obvious to all - theists and atheists alike. I do feel that holding onto concepts that simply don't work (I would put the mind-body dualism that many Christians ascribe to in this category) is not helpful, however. There is a profound mystery here.

Okay. So for philosophy class I am trying to get a paper done that is in support of dualism. I'm not too sure where I stand on the issued, except that I do lean towards dualism. Two of the main reasons are as follows:

1. As a Christian/theist, I believe in God and the supernatural beings he created called angels. So to say that the mind is simply a function of the brain is to only delay the mind-body problem, since I, and most Christians, believe that God and angels can, and do, interact with people.

Such phenomena as prophecy, visions, the inspiration of Scripture ("God-breathed"), temptation, and demon possession, show that these immaterial beings can interact with humans' minds in the same way that one's mind interacts with one's brain. I don't see any reason, as a Christian, to deny dualism but believe that other supernatural, immaterial beings can exert influence on us.

2. God is spirit, but yet Christians believe that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Here we have an immaterial being that is also a thinking being of the highest order. Angels and demons, too, can think and even appear in material form, yet they are essentially spiritual entities.

So, once again I cannot deny the seeming dualism of human nature since immaterial beings have the same capacities of thought and memory. Although God is not dualistic, it certainly shows that the body isn't needed in order for mind to function.


Just a couple of thoughts. I do realize that they are both only from a theist perspective, but that is all I have at the moment. I am still trying to formulate some arguments from a much more general perspective.