What Kind Of Christian Are You?

[pointus]

The diversity of beliefs in the Christian community is staggering. But what is even more puzzling is the diversity of belief about the nature of Jesus. This is nothing new, for it dates back to the very start of the Christian movement. In fact, this issue ironically is responsible for the coalescing of the Christian world into one single authority or orthodoxy, albeit with a great deal of opposition and bloodsheding. While the orthodox appear to have won the day, as history may suggest, this issue has still not been catagorically decided.

There are many Christian today who hold that Jesus and God are two separate agents, God being the Father and Jesus the son. Still others believe that Jesus is God, that is Jesus and God are the same agent, or "person". The latter view appears to be the overwhelming Christian belief.

Follower of the orthodox view believe that Jesus was present at the creation and did indeed create the world. That Jesus commanded Abraham to sacrifice is son Isaac. That Jesus killed millions in a global flood. That Jesus commanded Moses to kill thousands of his own people. That Jesus commandment Moses to ethnically cleanse, loot, rape and pillage the tribes and villages en route to the promise land. And so on.

I was astounded by some Christians, who are prepared to diverge from orthodoxy, claiming that Jesus was/is NOT God. That Jesus and God are two separate agents.

So my question is the following;

Are you a Jesus-is-God Christian or are you a Jesus-is-not-God Christian?

 

[samuel]

In the first place a Jesus-is-not-God person, cannot be a true Christian. Religious maybe, but not Christian.

 

[pointus]

In the first place a Jesus-is-not-God person, cannot be a true Christian. Religious maybe, but not Christian.

So, do you agree that a true Christian would gave to also agree that Jesus was responsible for the killing of many million of innocent and defenseless children in the flood, the conquest of the promise land, in the tribes of Israel, in the campaigns of King David, etc, etc?

 

[Free]

pointus,

Was that the whole reason you asked that question, just so you could unload what you think is a good argument? One of the foundational beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus is God Incarnate.

 

[annie]

So, do you agree that a true Christian would gave to also agree that Jesus was responsible for the killing of many million of innocent and defenseless children in the flood, the conquest of the promise land, in the tribes of Israel, in the campaigns of King David, etc, etc?

Who says they were innocent?

 

[LostSoul]

The diversity of beliefs in the Christian community is staggering. But what is even more puzzling is the diversity of belief about the nature of Jesus. This is nothing new, for it dates back to the very start of the Christian movement. In fact, this issue ironically is responsible for the coalescing of the Christian world into one single authority or orthodoxy, albeit with a great deal of opposition and bloodsheding. While the orthodox appear to have won the day, as history may suggest, this issue has still not been catagorically decided.

There are many Christian today who hold that Jesus and God are two separate agents, God being the Father and Jesus the son. Still others believe that Jesus is God, that is Jesus and God are the same agent, or "person". The latter view appears to be the overwhelming Christian belief.

Follower of the orthodox view believe that Jesus was present at the creation and did indeed create the world. That Jesus commanded Abraham to sacrifice is son Isaac. That Jesus killed millions in a global flood. That Jesus commanded Moses to kill thousands of his own people. That Jesus commandment Moses to ethnically cleanse, loot, rape and pillage the tribes and villages en route to the promise land. And so on.

I was astounded by some Christians, who are prepared to diverge from orthodoxy, claiming that Jesus was/is NOT God. That Jesus and God are two separate agents.

So my question is the following;

Are you a Jesus-is-God Christian or are you a Jesus-is-not-God Christian?

I will admit, your post does stir some questions within me. Then if one were to know me well enough one might ask a few as well in regards of my faith or beliefs.

In my eyes there are three parts of God....the trinity....God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit or Ghost. Each having their own unique qualities but at the same time carrying the same core values of one another.

Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[samuel]

I think if you study your Bible. You will find God not guilty! of ever killing anyone who was innocent. All of the above named people you mentioned, brought the righteous judgments of God upon themselves.

I suppose you consider the judgments of the coming Tribulation, to be on innocent people also.

Remember NO-One is innocent in Gods sight, we are all guilty, only faith in Jesus saves us from his judgement.

 

[pointus]

For examples of god killing innocent people, checkout the following.

(Ezekiel 9:5-6)
"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."


(Joshua 6:21)
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."



(Deuteronomy 2:34)
"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

(Deuteronomy 3:6-7)
"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves."


(Isaiah 13:15-16)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."


Exodus 32: 20 - 30.
20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?

22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.

23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

25And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies

26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

30And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Numbers 31:
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
19And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.


(Exodus 12:29-30)
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

 

[strathyboy]

The main question I have for you is this: have you really read the bible? You don't seem to be interested in the context of any of those quotes you gave. Furthermore, there are numerous internet sites that deal with the answers to those questions, books, etc. If you are really interested in the answer to a question as complex as that, you should be hunting for the answer in a number of different places, in order to increase the odds that you will find it. Making a post like this, the way you have, seems like an attempt to pick a fight.

I think one key issue is making it more difficult to discuss this. How do you know that someone is innocent? And second, how do you know that death is the worst thing that could possibly happen to a person?

 

[samuel]

For examples of god killing innocent people, checkout the following.

(Ezekiel 9:5-6)
"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house."


(Joshua 6:21)
"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword."



(Deuteronomy 2:34)
"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain."

(Deuteronomy 3:6-7)
"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves."


(Isaiah 13:15-16)
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."


Exodus 32: 20 - 30.
20And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.

21And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?

22And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.

23For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

24And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.

25And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies

26Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.

27And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

28And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

29For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

30And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

Numbers 31:
17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
19And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
20And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.


(Exodus 12:29-30)
"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."



pointus

"Oh ye of not a little understanding, but of absolutely no understanding".

 

[mondar]

So, do you agree that a true Christian would gave to also agree that Jesus was responsible for the killing of many million of innocent and defenseless children in the flood, the conquest of the promise land, in the tribes of Israel, in the campaigns of King David, etc, etc?

Pointus, I am going to have to agree with the rest so far. I think your view of Jesus as marshmallow soft on sin, and just this fluffy loving guy that would not hurt anyone is not accurate to the scriptures.

Jesus not only killed millions in the flood, but will one day kill billions in a future judgment in the 2nd coming. Please read Revelation 6 and tell me that Jesus will not destroy billions including millions of infants in a cataclysmic judgment on the earth in his 2nd coming. Jesus is the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, but he is also the Lion of Judah, who rules with a rod of iron.

Even if we assume that Jesus had no part in the flood (I disagree), John 5 makes it clear that Jesus does all that he sees the Father doing.

John 5:19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.

Jesus, being of the same substance as the Father, can only do as the Father does. The Father brought about a resurrection, so Jesus preformed resurrections. If the Fathers judges, the son judges.

I would also disagree with you on another basis that some here would not. The term "innocent" babies would not be found in my vocabulary. Many members from Christianity on this board might view babies as innocent, but I think the scriptures teaches the guilt of all mankind including infants. When the scriptures say that there are "non good, not even one," this includes infants. Man is born in sin. We all had a place in the sin of Adam. We are all rebels against God from conception. When God judges mankind in any judgment, it is deserved. The only thing that should surprise us about the flood and the judgments upon mankind is the fact that God spares some. In his mercy and grace he chose to spare some, not because they were innocent, but because God is full of mercy and grace. All are guilty, and God punished Christ instead of those whom he spares. I thank God for the cross, it is the righteous judgment of God upon his own son, in behalf of those who believe.

Pointus, I see little in common in our views of scripture, the nature of God, or the nature of man. You view God as the giant marshmallow in the sky who is too loving to judge sin. You view man as being at least to some degree being cooperative with God in either being fairly good, or becoming fairly good under Gods tutelage. You see the scriptures as a book with a split personality, divided into different kinds of gods.

I see God as manifesting his righteousness judgments, and his divine love during human history. I see man as a rebel sinner, defying God, challenging God as being somehow unfair if he judges mankind. And I see the scriptures as united in presenting one God.

 

[Free]

pointus,

If you think that Jesus is really different from God, read Revelation, especially the first few and last few books.

 

[Cornelius]

Yes , its the same God who destroyed all those you mentioned. He has never done anything unjust.

He is sovereign and because He made you, He can do with you as He pleases. No matter how much you might dislike the idea.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
Rom 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

God laughs at these silly arguments, because they have a show of wisdom, but in fact have no understanding at all.

 

[John]

Jesus-is-God Christian

 

[ProphetMark]

Jesus is God. Although I'm not absolutely sure he claims to be God anywhere. He claims to be the son of God, and the Christ. I'm not too sure where he actually claims to be God though.

 

[John]

Jesus is God. Although I'm not absolutely sure he claims to be God anywhere. He claims to be the son of God, and the Christ. I'm not too sure where he actually claims to be God though.

GOD vs JESUS


God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God is the only Savior.

"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior." Isaiah 43:11

To the only wise God our Savior... Jude 1:12

God our Savior. Titus 2:10

...we trust in the living God, who is the Savior. I Timothy 4:10

God my Savior. Luke 1:47

Jesus is the only Savior.

..the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14

...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18

...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1

...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42

...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4

a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11

Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12

...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10

...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
-- Heb 2:10

[Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
-- Heb 5:9

More can be found here: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm

 

[mondar]

Jesus is God. Although I'm not absolutely sure he claims to be God anywhere. He claims to be the son of God, and the Christ. I'm not too sure where he actually claims to be God though.

Col 2:9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,
The greek word for "Godhead" is θεοÄηÄοÂ. It is a term found nowhere else in the NT. Thayer defines the term as "deity." Paul is saying that Christ has all the fullness of deity. He is as much God as the Father.

You could go back to the Arian controversy in history. The Arians said that Jesus was "heterousias" or made of a similar substance. Of course the orthodox doctrine is that Jesus Christ was "homousias" or made of the same substance. Christ was begotton, not made. Christ is God of very God, one with the Father in being and substance, but not one in person. As a person, he took the role of the Son.

I think John 5 gives us a picture of his sonship. Think of an ancient craftsman. He has a son who watches every board he saws, and of every building he builds. Then when the son builds a building, he does exactly what he saw his father do.

Joh 5:19 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner.

Why does Christ do copy all that the Father does? It is because he loves the Father. And the Father glorifies the son because he loves the son.

Can Christ do anything the Father does? Yes. Does he have all the same attributes the Father has? Yes again. Is he of the same essence as the Father? Yes once again. Is he the same person as the Father. NOPE!

This is why Christ can say "I and the Father are one." Yet he can pray to the Father, he can love the Father, he can imitate the Father. He can do these things because he is like the Father in essence, but he is a different person.

*** This is why John 1:1 can say that Christ was "with God" and that Christ "was God." Being God of very God, he was God, but being with the Father (who is also God-yet a distinct person) he was also "with God."

In history, all these doctrines were summed up in one word... "trinity." While the word trinity is not found in scriptures, all the concepts that lead to the creation of the word trinity are found in the scriptures.

 

[pointus]

Can any you yoy deal with the atrocities that Jesus caused in the Old Testament? Ah, I am not surprised that none one has even addressed the issue yet. I have see response of the nature of:

1) Those who were killed and murdered by Jesus could not have been innocent.

2) How do I know they were innocent?

3) etc, etc, etc,


To this, my only reply is - Cam babies be held responsible for a crime, offense or sin? As far a I know, there is no legal systems in the world that would put a baby on trial. Could Jesus's system of justice amount to something crueller that what humans can design?

 

[Free]

pointus,

There is already a thread dealing with this based on Numbers 31.


To everyone else,

Please do not continue debating whether or not Jesus was God, that is not the topic of this thread and there are other threads out there already discussing this. Thanks.

 

[mondar]

Can any you yoy deal with the atrocities that Jesus caused in the Old Testament? Ah, I am not surprised that none one has even addressed the issue yet. I have see response of the nature of:

1) Those who were killed and murdered by Jesus could not have been innocent.

2) How do I know they were innocent?

3) etc, etc, etc,


To this, my only reply is - Cam babies be held responsible for a crime, offense or sin? As far a I know, there is no legal systems in the world that would put a baby on trial. Could Jesus's system of justice amount to something crueller that what humans can design?

As far as Babies being responsible for a crime, I would say no. However, I would not equate sin with crimes in human legal systems.

Can you follow this logic?
--- Do you think that is a lie?
--- If you think it is a lie. If I just lied, then I sinned.
--- If I sinned, and sin is the same as a legal violation of the crime code, then please prosecute me for my lie.
Conclusion--There are man sins that are not violation of human legal codes. In fact some things legal are sins (abortion). My point is that babies might not be criminals and are innocent before the courts, but they are sinners and not innocent before God.

Babies are born in Adam. and by Adam's federal headship participated in Adams sin. Romans 5 is clear that babies are rebel sinners because they die. This is orthodox doctrine called "original sin."

So then, I will stick with the group in this thread and agree that your argument against Christianity is based upon a theological and logical fallacy. You do not seem to be willing to address the arguments, but simply keep repeating the same fallacy that God hurt little sinless (innocent) babies.