starbyfar said:
I said I was striving to imitate Christ, not obey the law.
A false dilemma. You can't do one without doing the other. You also said you try to love God and your neighbor. These are commanded in the law and nowhere else (unless some on in the NT is quoting it).
So by trying to follow the law, then, according to your own words you aren't receiving grace.
sbf said:
If you can't obey all of them perfectly, then you're cannot be saved by the law. The verses posted about flowers and mixed breed animals and different fabric clothing... do you abide by those? Do you cut your hair or shave your beard? Do you obeserve the passover,feast of lights and so on and so forth... And if so, do you really believe that you're saved and i'm not because you obey the law and I don't?
Who said I had to be perfect? The bible says:
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua ha Mashiach the righteous:
Anyway, yes, I do observe the feasts (festival of lights is tradition and not commanded in the law). Anyway, I own no field and no livestock or any type of animals. As far as fabric, the only fabrics mentioned are wool and linen. If he meant any types of garments, I believe he would have just said "garments". He didn't specify or name types of seeds or cattle. He did with fabric, however. This leads me to believe only those specific fabrics are not to be mingled.
And no, I did not say you weren't saved. In error, imo, though.
sbf said:
Romans 2:23 - You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?
This is talking about being a hypocrite. Teaching others not to kill and steal, etc and doing it yourself.
sbf said:
So are you saying that we are called to follow the law, but since we can't Christ died so that we could keep trying, although it is never possible to follow the law in a manner pleasing to God?
You introduce unscriptural concepts here. Who says we can't guard and obey the law in a pleasing manner to Yahweh? Following the law is simple. There is a bad way and a good way, and then there's not following it at all (blatant rebellion).
The first way is doing it in truth and love and faithfulness. The second way is doing it in hypocrisy, or only outwardly or being partial in it. Like, say, you stole and then tried to come back and keep the sabbath like nothing happened. This is the "bad" way to follow the law. We are called to worship Yahweh in spirit and truth.
sbf said:
I'd like your opinion on Romans 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
It says what it says. You quoted it.
sbf said:
The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians.
The phrase "Old Testament law" is not in scripture, but let's consider what you've said here.
So if it does not apply to Christians (which is a manmade title anyway, given by man to believers), why do you try to love the one Elohim and your neighbor?
Both of these laws were specifically given to Israel. As a matter of fact, the greatest commandment begins with, "Hear,
O Israel..."
All of the law was given to Israel. That includes the prophets, the psalms etc. Do these apply to you?
sbf said:
Some of the laws were to make the Israelites know how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments for example), some of them were to show them how to worship God (the sacrificial system), some of them were to simply make the Israelites different from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law applies to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15).
Then if none of this "old testament law" applies today, you should not be loving your neighbor or doing anything good and righteous. As far as your "end to the Old Testament law" scriptures, I will address each one.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
This does not say he ended it. It says he is the
end of it. The Greek word used here is
telos, meaning "goal/purpose", not "termination". Everytime in scripture where it talks about the "end
of" something, "goal or purpose" is more accurate.
Examples:
James 5:11
Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the
end [
telos]
of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Yahweh has been terminated and we have seen it?
1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the
end [
telos]
of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
The termination of faith? I could have sworn 1 Corinthians 13:13 says that
faith, hope and love
remain.
The context of the scripture also backs me up. Many in Israel reject Christ on account of the law, when in reality, he is the
goal/purpose of the law.
See John 5:39 and even one of your scriptures here, Galatians 3:24.
The law is established (Romans 3:31) and witnesses to the righteousness of Yahweh (3:21).
And if the law has been "terminated", why did Paul quote it in the 10th chapter of Romans right after he supposedy said it was ended? In verse 5-8, he is quoting
the law.
Next:
Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
All this says is that, based on verse 22, the law kept us in sin till we could find a redeemer and be justified by faith in that redeemer. Now that this faith in that redeemer is revealed, the law no longer keeps "shut up". This has nothing to do with obeying it. This has to do with whether or not these believers should be submitted to the Jews who had "bewitched" them, and who taught justification by circumcision and making believers Jewish converts. He calls the law "scripture" here. It can't be ended because of what he says in 2 Timothy 3:16.
Next:
Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Law of commandments in
dogma (the Greek word for "ordinances" used here in the KJV). Extrabiblical precepts placed upon believers by Jewish authorities.
The law (of Moses, or law of Elohim) never separated Jew from non-Jew. This scripture is saying something separated Jew from non-Jew as "enmity" and Christ had to abolish it. What does the law say?
Deuteronomy 4:5
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as יהוה my Elohim commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 4:6
Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deuteronomy 4:7
For what nation is there so great, who hath Elohim so nigh unto them, as יהוה our Elohim is in all things that we call upon him for?
Deuteronomy 4:8
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
According to Moses, the giver of the law, the law was an invitation. The nations would see Israel with the law and glorify Yahweh.
The law also commands:
Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt
Deuteronomy 32:43
Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people...
Leviticus 19:33-34 is also a good passage to prove my point.
According to the law itself, the law brought both together in unity to glorify the one Elohim, who is Yahweh.
This lets us know that Ephesians is not speaking of
the law. If it is, Paul is a liar, as he contradicts the scriptures as well as himself in many cases.
So if it is not talking about the law, what is it talking about? I believe he is referring to extrabiblical dogmas like the outer court of the gentiles etc.
sbf said:
In place of the Old Testament law, we are under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2)
Scripture says no such thing. That is your opinion based on what you
think scripture is saying.
sbf said:
which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments†(Matthew 22:37-40).
You just refuted your argument here. If he ended the law and replaced it, why did he use it here as the basis of his doctrine? He quotes directly from and says the law and prophets hang off of the two greatest commandments therefore it can't be ended. How can it be "ended"? How can it be all the bad things people say it is if Christ himself says that the greatest thing in it is love?
sbf said:
Technically, the Ten Commandments are not even applicable to Christians.
I assume you mean the 4th commandment when you say "Ten Commandments"...
sbf said:
However, 9 of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament (all except the command to observe the Sabbath day). Obviously, if we are loving God we won't be worshipping other gods or worshipping idols. If we are loving our neighbors, we won't be murdering them, lying to them, committing adultery against them, or coveting what belongs to them.
Ah, so you are one of those people who believe in the 9 commandment theory (no offense)? That theory is flawed.
Not all of the ten commandments are repeated or quoted in the NT. The principles of them are. Say, not having other gods. That must be taken from a scripture such as 1 Corinthians 8:6. The NT never repeats, "you shall have no other gods before me". It must implied from similar texts.
By the same logic, we can say the sabbath commandment is found in the NT in a scripture such as Matthew 12:12, where Christ says it is lawful to do good on it. It can't be lawful to do good on a day that he supposedly ended. Luke also mentions the sabbath "according to the commandment".
sbf said:
]So, we are not under any of the requirements of the Old Testament law.
Loving Yahweh and our neighbor are "old testament law" requirements.
sbf said:
We are to love God and love our neighbors. If we do those two things faithfully, everything else will fall into place.
Surely, but saying Yahweh's law is ended is not the fullest way to love him.
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