What Torah Keepers Can Learn From Antioch

[Michael A Disciple]

Hi all,

Many today are turning to the law of Moses. Something very important can be learned from the story in the book of Acts about the Antioch Church.

Let us follow the progression of the Apostles of Yeshua concerning this matter.

Some Jewish disciples went to a place called Antioch and preached Yeshua. People were saved. The Apostles at Jerusalem heard about it.

21: And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22: Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23: Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24: For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. Acts 11:21-24

Barnabas was sent to check things out. When he got there he was glad seeing a great move of the grace of God. Now the Apostles trusted Barnabas judgment thats why he was sent.

25: Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:25-26

Now Barnabas brings Saul to this new assembly. Together they taught the Assembly for a whole year.

27: And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29: Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Acts 11:27-30

Sometime in that year prophets from Jerusalem came to Antioch. Their ministry was accepted by the Saints. The believers there wanted to help the Saints in Jerusalem. There seemed to have been love and trust between the two Assemblies.

1: Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2: As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3: And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Now here we see there were multiple ministries operating in Antioch. At least 5 of them ministering truth. The Spirit then sends Paul and Barnabas away on a missionary work. They went out to various places among the Gentiles preaching Christ.
They preached in various places till they came to Iconium.

1: And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
2: But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
3: Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. Acts 14:1-3

In Iconium we are told they abode LONG TIME there preaching. How long is a LONG TIME? They had already been preaching in other regions. Now they stayed at Iconium for a LONG TIME. Was it 6 months? A year? Longer?
After that they continued preaching in other regions. Then they went back where they had been and ordained Elders in every Assembly they founded. Afterwards they went and preached in Perga. Then returned home to Antioch.

23: And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
24: And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia.
25: And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26: And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. Acts 14:23-26

So besides the LONG TIME they spent in Iconium they spent time ministering in various OTHER places.
After coming back to Antioch note how long they remained there.

27: And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28: And there they abode long time with the disciples. Acts 14:27-28

So they were in Antioch a LONG TIME with the disciples.
Now so far we see that Paul and Barnabas taught at Antioch for a year. They stayed in Iconium for a LONG TIME. They returned to Antioch where they started and stayed there a LONG TIME.

So how much time does a year and 2 LONG TIMES plus enough time to preach and establish Assemblies then return to all of them to ordain Elders add up to? Could we not speculate at least 2 to 3 years?
Now after the Assembly at Antioch was at least several years old this happened.

1: And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2: When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3: And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4: And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:1-5

The Pharisee believers demanded the law of Moses be kept by the Antioch Assembly. What does that tell us about the ministry that had been going on in that city for at least several years?

It shows us after all that time they had NOT been taught they were to keep Moses law! Think of it! Jewish Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers were leading the Church there. The Church at Jerusalem and at Antioch fellowshipped with each other.

Yet after years of ministry the brotherhood there had never been told they had to keep the law of Moses!
If you were an Elder in a Messianic Assembly how long would it be before YOU began teaching the people they were required to follow Torah? Would it be in years or days, or weeks?

If Moses law was required of the early Church why was not the Jewish leadership including 2 Apostles NOT teaching it must be kept?

 

[JM]

G, did you see this one?

 

[unred typo]

Michael A Disciple wrote: If Moses law was required of the early Church why was not the Jewish leadership including 2 Apostles NOT teaching it must be kept?


No answer to your question I see. I thought with the board being so inactive, someone might have ventured a reply. But it is hard to argue with the truth and I think you’re right. They were not being converted to Judaism but to the teachings of Christ.

 

[Georges]

Hi all,

Many today are turning to the law of Moses. Something very important can be learned from the story in the book of Acts about the Antioch Church.

Let us follow the progression of the Apostles of Yeshua concerning this matter.

Some Jewish disciples went to a place called Antioch and preached Yeshua. People were saved. The Apostles at Jerusalem heard about it.

21: And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.
22: Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23: Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24: For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. Acts 11:21-24

Barnabas was sent to check things out. When he got there he was glad seeing a great move of the grace of God. Now the Apostles trusted Barnabas judgment thats why he was sent.

25: Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:
26: And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:25-26

Now Barnabas brings Saul to this new assembly. Together they taught the Assembly for a whole year.

27: And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28: And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
29: Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:
30: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul. Acts 11:27-30

Sometime in that year prophets from Jerusalem came to Antioch. Their ministry was accepted by the Saints. The believers there wanted to help the Saints in Jerusalem. There seemed to have been love and trust between the two Assemblies.

1: Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.
2: As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
3: And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

Now here we see there were multiple ministries operating in Antioch. At least 5 of them ministering truth. The Spirit then sends Paul and Barnabas away on a missionary work. They went out to various places among the Gentiles preaching Christ.
They preached in various places till they came to Iconium.

1: And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
2: But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles, and made their minds evil affected against the brethren.
3: Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. Acts 14:1-3

In Iconium we are told they abode LONG TIME there preaching. How long is a LONG TIME? They had already been preaching in other regions. Now they stayed at Iconium for a LONG TIME. Was it 6 months? A year? Longer?
After that they continued preaching in other regions. Then they went back where they had been and ordained Elders in every Assembly they founded. Afterwards they went and preached in Perga. Then returned home to Antioch.

23: And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
24: And after they had passed throughout Pisidia, they came to Pamphylia.
25: And when they had preached the word in Perga, they went down into Attalia:
26: And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled. Acts 14:23-26

So besides the LONG TIME they spent in Iconium they spent time ministering in various OTHER places.
After coming back to Antioch note how long they remained there.

27: And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
28: And there they abode long time with the disciples. Acts 14:27-28

So they were in Antioch a LONG TIME with the disciples.
Now so far we see that Paul and Barnabas taught at Antioch for a year. They stayed in Iconium for a LONG TIME. They returned to Antioch where they started and stayed there a LONG TIME.

So how much time does a year and 2 LONG TIMES plus enough time to preach and establish Assemblies then return to all of them to ordain Elders add up to? Could we not speculate at least 2 to 3 years?
Now after the Assembly at Antioch was at least several years old this happened.

1: And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2: When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3: And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4: And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5: But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Acts 15:1-5

The Pharisee believers demanded the law of Moses be kept by the Antioch Assembly. What does that tell us about the ministry that had been going on in that city for at least several years?

Been perverted...obviously....The Church at Jerusalem was the law.....the model. The Antiochians were not observing the Law as was taught in the Chruch at Jerusalem....Even Peter relealized the error...

It shows us after all that time they had NOT been taught they were to keep Moses law! Think of it! Jewish Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers were leading the Church there. The Church at Jerusalem and at Antioch fellowshipped with each other.

Not really, Yes the Church at Antioch may have been Gentile dominated, but it wasn't until Paul began to preach his brand of Christianity (ie. Torah negation) that finally made it's way back to Jerusalem...James sent his boys to find out what was going on....

and,

Act 15:35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
Act 15:36 ¶ And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the Lord, [and see] how they do.

Act 15:37 And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.

John Mark, may have been a relative of Peter, if not maybe his son. There is historical (and possibly biblical) presedence for this.

Act 15:38 But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

Ever wonder why John Mark departed? Maybe it was because Paul began teaching Torah abrogation and John Mark didn't like what he heard.

Act 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;

At this point Barnabas see's Paul for what he is teaching...Torah observance to the Jewish believers and Torah abrogance to the Gentiles...and Barnabas didn't like it.


Yet after years of ministry the brotherhood there had never been told they had to keep the law of Moses!
If you were an Elder in a Messianic Assembly how long would it be before YOU began teaching the people they were required to follow Torah? Would it be in years or days, or weeks?

If Moses law was required of the early Church why was not the Jewish leadership including 2 Apostles NOT teaching it must be kept?

They were....It is quite obvious that the Elders of Jerusalem were Torah observant...It is quite obvious that Paul (in front of the Jews) was Torah observant...

Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation

Here is were Barnabas and Paul split company....Both Barnabas and Peter were reminded by "those from James" on how they should act...Paul didn't like it...Paul was wrong...

Somewhere between Antioch, Jerusalem (Acts 15) and Antioch again, Barnabas was set straight, and Paul, who appeared to be Torah observant, but taught abrogation, departed.

.

Paul was very persuasive....and still is...however, James kept him in check (at least while he was in sight).

 

[unred typo]

I wrote this to another thread before I saw it was locked but it fits here as well, MOL (some of us are like a broken record, huh?) : :wink:

Lewis wrote:Paul had to say it twice.
Galatians 1:8-12 (King James Version) 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Georges wrote back: Lewis...ever wonder what that gospel might be? How about the gospel of James perhaps? He and Paul were at odds....

There’s only one gospel, Georges. Paul preached the same one as James and Jesus. I keep trying to tell you that but you have been putting all your eggs in the Judaizer’s basket. The people you need to oppose are those who take Paul’s writings and distort them to support doctrines that Jesus didn’t teach (i.e. OSAS, TULIP, and warped faith and grace). When I say oppose, I’m not talking ‘be ugly’ though. God doesn’t like ugly. The truth is hard enough to swallow without shoving it down people’s throats on a sword. (I prefer a blunt comment to a sharp stab, any day. Some people need to be spoon fed with kid gloves though and they get their feelings bruised easily. )

BTW, I don’t hate you, Georges. You have as much right to be wrong as I do. If you would back down long enough to give Paul a break, you would see he has been misquoted and his message is not out of both sides of his mouth as you’ve been lead to believe.

Paul taught what Jesus taught which was a higher standard than the Torah. The Torah was just a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Once Jesus died and rose again, the laws were written on our hearts, Georges. The Holy Spirit was given to help us put them into shoe leather.

Georges wrote:They were....It is quite obvious that the Elders of Jerusalem were Torah observant...It is quite obvious that Paul (in front of the Jews) was Torah observant…

Paul was a Jew, but he didn’t force any non Israelite to become a Jew. Neither did James. Where in James epistle did he remind the Jews to keep the Torah? He doesn’t. He tells them to follow the law of liberty. Jesus’ law of love for one another and God.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

See? Read all of James. No mention of Torah. Exactly what rites, ordinances or practices do you think we need to keep that Jesus didn‘t teach in his sermon on the mount?

:-?

 

[Georges]

I wrote this to another thread before I saw it was locked but it fits here as well, MOL (some of us are like a broken record, huh?) : :wink:

Lewis wrote:Paul had to say it twice.
Galatians 1:8-12 (King James Version) 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Georges wrote back: Lewis...ever wonder what that gospel might be? How about the gospel of James perhaps? He and Paul were at odds....

There’s only one gospel, Georges. Paul preached the same one as James and Jesus.

Prove me wrong Red....I've sent many people (in this forum) a pdf book that proves biblically your statement is wrong...I haven't heard anything negative back in response...I will gladly email it to you if you wish...You will find that Paul didn't teach the same Gospel as Jesus or Paul....Now, you can keep calling me a broken record if you like, or you can prove me wrong. Read the pdf and see if you can....

I keep trying to tell you that but you have been putting all your eggs in the Judaizer’s basket.

Sorry, Red...but in the Messianic Kingdom that's what it's going to be...Nazarene Judaism....I'm just trying to get a head start.

The people you need to oppose are those who take Paul’s writings and distort them to support doctrines that Jesus didn’t teach (i.e. OSAS, TULIP, and warped faith and grace).

I think that if you read the pdf, you will have a different look on Paul...I believe you will embrace James more and as a result, you will be the same, just your perspective of God will be different, better.

When I say oppose, I’m not talking ‘be ugly’ though. God doesn’t like ugly. The truth is hard enough to swallow without shoving it down people’s throats on a sword. (I prefer a blunt comment to a sharp stab, any day. Some people need to be spoon fed with kid gloves though and they get their feelings bruised easily. )

I don't insult anyone....I've never promoted myself to be smarter than anyone....I may be a little confident in what I think I know, but I'm never condecending (to my knowledge). When I disagree with someone, I usually do so in a respectful manner.

BTW, I don’t hate you, Georges. You have as much right to be wrong as I do. If you would back down long enough to give Paul a break, you would see he has been misquoted and his message is not out of both sides of his mouth as you’ve been lead to believe.

I'll make a deal....I'll back down on Paul, if you read the entire pdf...so far the only ones who haven't requested it are the ones who are afraid they may be wrong....how about you? Willing to give it a look? PM me with an email address. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

Paul taught what Jesus taught which was a higher standard than the Torah.

Not so....there is no higher standard than the Torah...Torah is what will be taught in the Messianic Kingdom as been prophecied throught the OT. The pdf "Jesus Words Only" will prove beyond doubt that Paul and Jesus didn't agree, or at least not all of the time.

The Torah was just a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Once Jesus died and rose again, the laws were written on our hearts, Georges. The Holy Spirit was given to help us put them into shoe leather.

That is a prophecy for the Messianic Kingdom....of which believers have a taste of now...

Georges wrote:They were....It is quite obvious that the Elders of Jerusalem were Torah observant...It is quite obvious that Paul (in front of the Jews) was Torah observant…

Paul was a Jew, but he didn’t force any non Israelite to become a Jew.

True, he did not...as far as we know....that was the problem...he didn't campaign to proselytize...

Neither did James. Where in James epistle did he remind the Jews to keep the Torah?

Faith and Works...That's the Torah, and that is the theme of James...Would you have rather he substitued "Torah" for "Faith and Works" since they are synonmous terms...in meaning.

He doesn’t.

Acts 15 and 21...The commandments to the Gentiles are "Torah Light".

He tells them to follow the law of liberty. Jesus’ law of love for one another and God.

The law of liberty is the Torah....if you follow Torah you are achieving rigtheousness....if you are following Torah, you are not sinning, you are free. The more you follow Torah, the more righteous you are. The less you follow Torah, the less righteous you are.

James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James is quoting the Torah....do a search on "fatherless and widows"...James is repeating what is said numerous times in the Torah...Faith and Works...that is Torah....like it or not.

See? Read all of James. No mention of Torah. Exactly what rites, ordinances or practices do you think we need to keep that Jesus didn‘t teach in his sermon on the mount?

Sorry to break it to you...Jesus, as super rabbi, taught Torah (or Torah commentary) on the mount....I've read all of James....it is a counter piece to Paul....read the pdf......I don't really want to cut and paste from there (over 300 pages of info)....The author does a fantastic job to make an interesting and easy to read refutation...

:-?

Red....let me send you the pdf...scan it, then if it has any merit, read it.

 

[unred typo]

Are you talking about this one you posted a while ago?

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... earch=paul


If so, I have it. If not, just pm it to me.

 

[Georges]

Are you talking about this one you posted a while ago?

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... earch=paul


If so, I have it. If not, just pm it to me.

No...this is a book...from a proChristian website...that promotes using Jesus' words only...

It is a pdf format book.......I will pm it when I get back to my office computer.

 

[unred typo]

Let me get this straight. You want me to read 300 some pages that prove Jesus and James preached a different gospel from Paul? Why on earth would I want to do that, Georges? I can read the gospel that Jesus, James and Paul preached right in their own words. Why should I get it secondhand? They are the same. Jesus had a commentary on the law alright. He said that what they heard said was ‘this’ *but* he said ‘this.’

Jesus did not preach the Torah but higher law, the law of liberty which is Love, pure and simple. James preached the law of liberty, love in deeds, the higher law that says that he that knows to do good and doesn’t do it, to him it is sin. Paul preached love fulfilled the law, just as Jesus said himself. James preached that riches were corrupted and not to grasped for, Jesus said how hard it was for a rich man to enter the kingdom, and Paul said that those who sought after riches pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Ok, you know Paul didn’t preach the Torah. So do I. But you have yet to prove Jesus and James did. I’m not saying that truth portions of the Torah were not repeated, I’m saying the rites, ordinances and ceremonial events were not taught. OK, send me the thing. I’ll try to read it all if it will stop this tirade on Paul. :-?

300 pages? I'm holding you to this:
"I'll make a deal....I'll back down on Paul, if you read the entire pdf...so far the only ones who haven't requested it are the ones who are afraid they may be wrong....how about you? Willing to give it a look? PM me with an email address. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain."

 

[Vic C.]

The people you need to oppose are those who take Paul’s writings and distort them to support doctrines that Jesus didn’t teach (i.e. OSAS, TULIP, and warped faith and grace). When I say oppose, I’m not talking ‘be ugly’ though. God doesn’t like ugly. The truth is hard enough to swallow without shoving it down people’s throats on a sword.

Hey, you might be on to something. Dispensationalism and Universal Reconciliation are highly dependant on much of Paul's teaching. :wink: Why just pick on the Calvinists and Luther?

 

[Georges]

Let me get this straight. You want me to read 300 some pages that prove Jesus and James preached a different gospel from Paul? Why on earth would I want to do that, Georges?

Well, I just assumed (wrongly perhaps) that you may be interested in the truth...either way. What if Paul is wrong...then what...? I just finished chapter 12 and with every chapter another strike...As I said...either way you look at it, if you read the pdf and still accept Paul...good for you...If you don't, better for you..

I can read the gospel that Jesus, James and Paul preached right in their own words.

As can and did, I. However, the pdf brings out in the texts things you have been reading, but have never seen before...In other words, these texts will take on a different meaning once the descrepencies are brought to your attention...Aren't you interested in the truth? If it can be shown "In their own words" that they are in disagreement, wouldn't you be interested?

Why should I get it secondhand?

The author uses the Bible to prove the accusations...In a very ordrerly manner.

They are the same. Jesus had a commentary on the law alright. He said that what they heard said was ‘this’ *but* he said ‘this.’

Jesus did not preach the Torah but higher law, the law of liberty which is Love, pure and simple. James preached the law of liberty, love in deeds, the higher law that says that he that knows to do good and doesn’t do it, to him it is sin.

That's the Torah my friend...there is no higher law...would it have been better for you if he said Torah instead of describe it in a discriptive term?

Paul preached love fulfilled the law, just as Jesus said himself. James preached that riches were corrupted and not to grasped for, Jesus said how hard it was for a rich man to enter the kingdom, and Paul said that those who sought after riches pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Reread the Sheep and Goats parable...it's a works related parable..

Ok, you know Paul didn’t preach the Torah. So do I.

Paul may have not preached Torah (that is why he was called to the carpet in Jerusalem), but he did observe it as he said....He completed a required Nazarite vow (including sacrifices), He had to return to Jerusalem to observe a Feast Day (Torah law), he circumsized Timothy (Torah law), and others...

But you have yet to prove Jesus and James did. I’m not saying that truth portions of the Torah were not repeated, I’m saying the rites, ordinances and ceremonial events were not taught. OK, send me the thing. I’ll try to read it all if it will stop this tirade on Paul.

Red, To proven himself James required Paul to complete a Nazarite vow...not only did Paul do it, but he paid the "sacrifice" expenses of 4 other men...Acts 21...a Torah requirement...

With all due respect, you may have Rabbinic "Man made" law confused with Torah law...one is God based, one is man based.


:-?

300 pages? I'm holding you to this:
"I'll make a deal....I'll back down on Paul, if you read the entire pdf...so far the only ones who haven't requested it are the ones who are afraid they may be wrong....how about you? Willing to give it a look? PM me with an email address. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain."

I will send it tomorrow, I wish the my other antagonists (albeit, you aren't really one to me) would take the challenge...what say you Solo, and J?