[_ Old Earth _] What's an atheist to gain..............?

[Imagican]

What possible purpose could it serve an atheist to post on a Christian web-site? I mean what's it to ya? Why would you insist on trying to push your beliefs on someone that obviously knows better? I know that there are many many lonely people out there, but what kind of loneliness is this: that one would join a forum 'just' to contradict the beliefs contained within said forum.

I think that this principle alone should prove to you that God exists. If evil exists, surely good also. And I can think of no other reason that an atheist would dogedly pursue a Christian. Pure EVIL.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

I personally gain practice explaining scientific concepts to people who don't have a background in science. That and I am able to hone my ability to debate.

 

[Imagican]

An honest answer,,,,,,,,,,,I guess.

And what is your science background? Are you a 'working' scientist, or just a wanna be?

Are you formally educated, or just a reader of popular science and national geographics?

And, I assume that since you need to hone your debating abilities that your plans are politics?

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

An honest answer,,,,,,,,,,,I guess.

And what is your science background? Are you a 'working' scientist, or just a wanna be?

Are you formally educated, or just a reader of popular science and national geographics?

And, I assume that since you need to hone your debating abilities that your plans are politics?

I'm a third year physics major.

And I debate for fun, you guys are hilarious.

 

[Quadeshet]

What possible purpose could it serve an atheist to post on a Christian web-site? I mean what's it to ya?

>>I'm an anthropology student. All my friends are atheists, so I don't get much of a chance to hear aboout how Christians view the world. I like to learn where people are coming from.

Why would you insist on trying to push your beliefs on someone that obviously knows better?

>>I don't assume I know better. I do, though, try to make a distinction between belief and knowledge.

I know that there are many many lonely people out there, but what kind of loneliness is this: that one would join a forum 'just' to contradict the beliefs contained within said forum.

>> As I said above, my aim in joining was educational. Lonliness is not a factor. It's easy to become argumentative online, it's the nature of the medium. On this particular forum I have seen a great deal of civility on both sides (though there are notable exceptions). Beliefs are so personal, however, that it is very easy to become judgemental.

I think that this principle alone should prove to you that God exists. If evil exists, surely good also. And I can think of no other reason that an atheist would dogedly pursue a Christian. Pure EVIL.

>> I don't understand your logic. Atheists are evil? Disagreeing with people is evil?

One thing I do know is that the world is not a dichotomy. The existance of 'evil' does not ensure the existance of 'good.' I don't even know how one would begin defining such concepts.

 

[Imagican]

Well then, let me offer this as a beginning:

Love = Good

Hate = Evil

I'll give this some time to soak in and then we can move on from here.

 

[Imagican]

SyntaxVorlon,

I am so glad that we offer you that, humor.

I have a little news for you my friend and 'mark my words', God created the world in which you live and the life from which you came. I want you to remember your statement when asked 'why you chose to deny me'. I seriously doubt that you will find anything to laugh about then.

Pride is a very dangerous thing. It's what destroyed satan's place.

You will only be here on this planet for a minute. Probably seems like an eternity to you now, but in just a few short years you will certainly realize that your physical lifespan is but a minute in time. What you do with it will certainly be a determining factor in whether or not your consciousness continues or ends.

You seem to be a relatively bright individual. Use what you have to make a difference. When it's all over, this will be all that matters.

I have a simple question that such a bright boy as yourself should find easy to answer.

If there is NO such thing as God, where did a belief in Him come from to start with.

I mean, if you have really studied ancient man, you have found that EVERY group that we have studied and have evidence of have some kind of belief in a creator or God. Why? Just a fluke? Ignorance? Or something a little deeper. An awareness perhaps?

I am curious. Don't get to converse with such educated persons like yourself often, so humor me. Explain what people that know, think about this 'religious stuff'. Why has it been such a pervasive 'thing' in all cultures throughout history and around the world?

 

[ThinkerMan]

In brief, I don't like it when people mislead or lie.

To a large extent, that is what I see the purveyors of creationists theories (not necessarily to be confused with ID) doing. So many defunct talking points, so many easily disproven arguments, so many strawman versions of the theory of evolution. So many false degrees, papermill degrees and the like. Even when one of the most reputable creationist sites has a list of "arguments creationists should not use", the arguments remain.

Again, in short, I see a distinct lack of credibility and professionality in the proponents of creationism, and I don't wish for such dishonesty to be instilled as legitimate within my culture and country.

We have enough problems in America properly educating our children and citizens in math and science, and the destructiveness of creationism will only serve to exacerbate that problem, in my opinion. China, India and other nations are ready to outpace us in the education of engineers, scientists and the like, whereas I would prefer for our nation to be competative in those fields.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

SyntaxVorlon,

I am so glad that we offer you that, humor.

I have a little news for you my friend and 'mark my words', God created the world in which you live and the life from which you came. I want you to remember your statement when asked 'why you chose to deny me'. I seriously doubt that you will find anything to laugh about then.

Pride is a very dangerous thing. It's what destroyed satan's place.

Can I make fun of God's bad grammar?

You will only be here on this planet for a minute. Probably seems like an eternity to you now, but in just a few short years you will certainly realize that your physical lifespan is but a minute in time. What you do with it will certainly be a determining factor in whether or not your consciousness continues or ends.

You seem to be a relatively bright individual. Use what you have to make a difference. When it's all over, this will be all that matters.

I really don't see how it matters whether my consciousness continues after I die. If it doesn't, then it doesn't and it won't matter to me afterward. If it does, meh.

I have a simple question that such a bright boy as yourself should find easy to answer.

If there is NO such thing as God, where did a belief in Him come from to start with.

There are plenty of good anthropological answers to that question. Foremost of which is that earlier humans employ the sort of logic plenty of fundies imply today, that being that where they cannot explain nature in terms they understand, they make natural phenomena an act of God. Spinoza is among the first to use this as an explanation for a good deal of Abrahamic language in the Bible.

I mean, if you have really studied ancient man, you have found that EVERY group that we have studied and have evidence of have some kind of belief in a creator or God. Why? Just a fluke? Ignorance? Or something a little deeper. An awareness perhaps?

Odd then that none of them agree. You would think that, as with scientific discovery, one could interpret such awareness objectively, and thus would come up with numerous highly similar monotheological religions. Funny that this isn't the case, if it isn't an awareness. It seems ignorance is a better explanation in this case then, I agree.

I am curious. Don't get to converse with such educated persons like yourself often, so humor me. Explain what people that know, think about this 'religious stuff'. Why has it been such a pervasive 'thing' in all cultures throughout history and around the world?

Because it was an early attempt that people had at comprehending the world around them. In ancient times they had no better explanation for things that happened than stories they made up. Such stories became ingrained and became their beliefs.
Really it was in the 17th century(in Europe) when people began developing knowledge about the universe to an extent where it began to cause rifts in theology did science split from theological philosophy.

 

[Quadeshet]

Well then, let me offer this as a beginning:

Love = Good

Hate = Evil

I'll give this some time to soak in and then we can move on from here.

You seem a little hostile.

I suppose, like SyntaxVorlon, I do find it odd that people don't agree.
Why doesn't everyone see the world in such black and white terms?

There are cultures with no idea of God.
There are cultures with no idea of gods.
Why?

People have different answers to the same question. Interesting, no?

 

[Imagican]

SyntaxVorlon,

I think you missed my point. I didn't ask you where religious ideas came from, I asked you why. What was universal in man's impulsive nature to 'create' religion. Worship, what inspired man to create this idea? And how is it that every culture has/had some form of it?

 

[Imagican]

Well then, let me offer this as a beginning:

Love = Good

Hate = Evil

I'll give this some time to soak in and then we can move on from here.

You seem a little hostile.

I suppose, like SyntaxVorlon, I do find it odd that people don't agree.
Why doesn't everyone see the world in such black and white terms?

There are cultures with no idea of God.
There are cultures with no idea of gods.
Why?

People have different answers to the same question. Interesting, no?

Ok my friend,

I wouldn't call my answer hostile in the least. All I offered is that it seems really really strange that the folks that are SO SURE that God doesn't exist would waste their time arguing with those that ARE sure that He does. I mean, if these 'anti-God folks' were so SURE, and so SMART, it seems as if they would have come to the conclusion that arguing with a Christian is 'just a waste of time'.

Otherwise, the only alternative I can come up with is; these folks are doing it just to belittle the beliefs of others. If this is the case, there is no better word that I could come up with than EVIL.

If my accusation that what you may be doing is EVIL has offended you or caused you to question your motives, then you should perhaps search your OWN conscience for the answer.

I know, I know, there is no EVIL in your world. People that maim and murder others for the sake of the thrill, its just that, a desire to be thrilled. Nothing more. And those that choose to 'attack' others that choose to accept 'good' as offered by 'a Creator' are just doing it 'for fun'. Nothing EVIL about making fun of other's beliefs either, right? Because there is NO EVIL. That's kind of like throwing the concept of personal ownership out the window so one wouldn't have to feel guilty for stealing from them. Wow. Pretty twisted concept huh?

Enough of this. Trust me guys, I'm anything but hostile. A bit confused perhaps, but not hostile. Back to the subject though.

Name ONE culture that has NO religion. Just one that doesn't believe in some kind of deity. I am not asking for a culture that has 'some' that don't accept religion, I ask for one CULTURE that has NO religion. I honestly don't believe this exists.

It is inherent in ALL of us to know the Creator. Some just choose to deny for the sake of self.

For each of us to become balanced in our conscious and sub-conscious, there is a need to fulfill our own personal worship of a Creator. This is inherent in humans. We certainly have a choice in 'what' we worship, but we don't have a choice of whether we worship or not. Each and every one of us displays a form of worship to 'something'.

For each person that refuses to fulfill that part within themselves that demands acknowledgement of the Creator, they must replace it with something else.

What I question is where this common human trait came from. Why is it there.

And to quell this argument before it even gets started, EVERYONE worships something or someone. Worship; what you adore, what you sacrifice for, what you offer to, be it your time, your money, your labor, your love. EVERYBODY, except maybe those that are unable to function physically or emotionally, worships something. You are certainly welcome to deny this and I hope that some of you will. It will do much to 'prove' how smart you really are.

Now, what I ask is Why? Where did this basic NEED come from? Why is it inherent? No where in the animal kingdom do we find this need. Where did we get it?

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

SyntaxVorlon,

I think you missed my point. I didn't ask you where religious ideas came from, I asked you why. What was universal in man's impulsive nature to 'create' religion. Worship, what inspired man to create this idea? And how is it that every culture has/had some form of it?

As a matter of fact I answered that question too. Why do we have all these religions, to answer our questions about Life, the Universe and Everything.

I wouldn't call my answer hostile in the least. All I offered is that it seems really really strange that the folks that are SO SURE that God doesn't exist would waste their time arguing with those that ARE sure that He does. I mean, if these 'anti-God folks' were so SURE, and so SMART, it seems as if they would have come to the conclusion that arguing with a Christian is 'just a waste of time'.

I'll point you to the top of the page where it says Christianity and Science. They both interact in a number of ways, though with the Christians on this board it's mainly hostile.

 

[Imagican]

But, "We love you, man".
What's hostile about that?

 

[Guest]

I come here because I love all of my fellow man and I want to show them the enlightened path of science.

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

But, "We love you, man".
What's hostile about that?

I meant that Christianity is hostile toward science, or rather the form of christianity professed on these boards is hostile toward science.

 

[Quadeshet]

I wouldn't call my answer hostile in the least. All I offered is that it seems really really strange that the folks that are SO SURE that God doesn't exist would waste their time arguing with those that ARE sure that He does. I mean, if these 'anti-God folks' were so SURE, and so SMART, it seems as if they would have come to the conclusion that arguing with a Christian is 'just a waste of time'.

>> Well, there are a lot of Christians who feel that arguing with atheists is called 'witnessing' and it's the right thing to do. I don't think I waste my time talking to people with differing viewpoints. How do you learn if you don't listen? It's frustrating when you don't have a common language, yes, but that's why you learn other languages.

Otherwise, the only alternative I can come up with is; these folks are doing it just to belittle the beliefs of others. If this is the case, there is no better word that I could come up with than EVIL.

>> I can't speak for others. I do think it's stretching it that 'belittling' is evil. It's not constructive at all, but it's hardly the worst people can come up with.

If my accusation that what you may be doing is EVIL has offended you or caused you to question your motives, then you should perhaps search your OWN conscience for the answer.

>> I know my feelings.

I know, I know, there is no EVIL in your world. People that maim and murder others for the sake of the thrill, its just that, a desire to be thrilled. Nothing more. And those that choose to 'attack' others that choose to accept 'good' as offered by 'a Creator' are just doing it 'for fun'. Nothing EVIL about making fun of other's beliefs either, right? Because there is NO EVIL. That's kind of like throwing the concept of personal ownership out the window so one wouldn't have to feel guilty for stealing from them. Wow. Pretty twisted concept huh?

>> Evil is a preloaded cultural concept. I don't disagree that 'evil' can be applied to many situations, I just don't agree that 'evil' is an objective 'thing.'

Enough of this. Trust me guys, I'm anything but hostile. A bit confused perhaps, but not hostile. Back to the subject though.

>> OK.

Name ONE culture that has NO religion. Just one that doesn't believe in some kind of deity. I am not asking for a culture that has 'some' that don't accept religion, I ask for one CULTURE that has NO religion. I honestly don't believe this exists.

>> You're right, all traditional cultures are adherents. The difference being, that most belief systems are small and culture bound. Most accept that their idea of who, how, what and why only applies to their particular people or environment. With the development of larger communities also comes the development of world religions. These are belief systems that attempt to break free of the culture/adherent barrier and apply itself everywhere. So, today, we have people in many places that believe sort of the same thing. This is pretty new.

It is inherent in ALL of us to know the Creator. Some just choose to deny for the sake of self.

>> This I disagree with. There are as many creation myths as there are cultures.

For each of us to become balanced in our conscious and sub-conscious, there is a need to fulfill our own personal worship of a Creator. This is inherent in humans. We certainly have a choice in 'what' we worship, but we don't have a choice of whether we worship or not. Each and every one of us displays a form of worship to 'something'.

>> Worship is also a loaded term.

For each person that refuses to fulfill that part within themselves that demands acknowledgement of the Creator, they must replace it with something else.

>> Why do you think it's replacement?

What I question is where this common human trait came from. Why is it there.

>> Who the heck knows? The earliest 'religion' was shamanism, as far as we can tell. That doesn't have much to do with a creator.

And to quell this argument before it even gets started, EVERYONE worships something or someone. Worship; what you adore, what you sacrifice for, what you offer to, be it your time, your money, your labor, your love. EVERYBODY, except maybe those that are unable to function physically or emotionally, worships something. You are certainly welcome to deny this and I hope that some of you will. It will do much to 'prove' how smart you really are.

>> It's not possible to 'prove' our psychology. Sometimes, something just 'clicks.' Be it belief in the great dung beetle pushing the sun or exploring the mysteries of the universe, everyone is interested in something. Coming up with different answers is part of being human.

Now, what I ask is Why? Where did this basic NEED come from? Why is it inherent? No where in the animal kingdom do we find this need. Where did we get it?

>> What if animals just 'worship' being alive? Enjoying the wind in their fur? Not many other creatures have a concept of their own mortality, maybe this is why we are so interested in where we came from?

 

[Quid]

I'm no atheist, but the constant rage Heidi gives me from responding with cited, well thought out arguments with "HUMANS CAN'T MATE WIHT PRIMATE OLOL!11!" helps me deal with the rest of life's inconsistancies.

 

[Drew]

I meant that Christianity is hostile toward science, or rather the form of christianity professed on these boards is hostile toward science.

I am glad that you qualified that statement. One can most certainly be a believer in the scientific method and also a believer in the reality of a living God, even one who manifested himself in the form of a risen Jesus Christ. You can't totally have it both ways - a serious commitment to science and empiricism pretty much rules out YEC unless and until new evidence comes to light.

We Christians should be seekers of truth - we should not "bear false witness" to the data the world gives us. I am continually mystified by the need to view the first few chapters of Genesis as technical material. Allegory can convey important truths just as well. Empiricism is not our enemy. Embrace empiricism! It works!

Now there are a lot of just plain wacky anti-evolution things said on this board. If those of you who make such statements are really interested in promoting the gospel, please stop and re-consider what you are doing. Making the rest of us look like we just fell off the turnip truck does not help the cause.

Now if you will excuse me, I am off to vist a friend's wife in the maternity ward - she just gave birth to a baboon. :-D

 

[Solo]

But, "We love you, man".
What's hostile about that?

I meant that Christianity is hostile toward science, or rather the form of christianity professed on these boards is hostile toward science.

Christianity is against all lies whether in the field of science or otherwise. Many distortions, hoaxes, false interpretations, and downright lies make up the field of evolution, and some call evolution science, but in all reality it is so lacking in evidence it should be considered one of many theories of the origins of life that is full of holes and suspect as it is. Science has been the child of the Christian faithin that it has produced, reared, and fed true science all these years. Evolution has been more of a negative impact on science than any other theory devised by man throughout history.