When Christianity Makes No Sense !

[Jay T]

When Christianity Makes No Sense !

What is the difference between the sins, committed by a Non-Christian, and a 'saved' Christian ?

We are going to explode some common errors, found in Christianity....as we proceed on......

The Bible says:
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

So, every person before they come to be, 'saved'....is a sinner, right ?

OK now, what is the definition of sin ?
#1.) 1 John 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law".

#2.) Romans 7:7 "... I had not known sin, but by the law...."

#3.) Romans 3:20 "....for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

We have established that the sinner, is one, who breaks the Law of God.

Now, we need to establish what happens to the sinner who ...does not...ask, and receive forgiveness, of his/her past sins.

A.) Ezekiel 18:4 "...the soul that sinneth, it shall die".

B.) Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin [is] death..."

So then, the Unconverted, UNsaved person, is on death row (condemned to eternal death, Hellfire)....as a result of their sins, which they've committed in their past lifetime.

YET....the so-called Christian can commit, those same sins.....and, they are going to heaven ???

In other words: When a Non-Christian commits sin...they are going to Hell.
BUT...when the Christian commits, the very same sin....they are going to heaven...just because they believe in Jesus Christ ?

As though believing in Jesus Christ, allows people to sin, and not face any consequences for it ?


Comments please....

 

[mutzrein]

Good stuff Jay T. It's going to take revelation to deal with that - so will watch with interest.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Didn't you already touch on the difference between the Christian and the nonChristian in regard to the Christian asking God to forgive their sins, Jay T? I do pretty well agree with the theme of your post, however. I too will be interested in the views of others.

 

[hybrid]

So then, the Unconverted, UNsaved person, is on death row (condemned to eternal death, Hellfire)....as a result of their sins, which they've committed in their past lifetime.

to begin with, everyone were in the death row. thru christ God proclaimed an amnesty program. those who would avail will never be condemned provided the availer will abide in the terms of the amnesty program.

In other words: When a Non-Christian commits sin...they are going to Hell.
BUT...when the Christian commits, the very same sin....they are going to heaven...just because they believe in Jesus Christ ?

yes. that's the general idea.

As though believing in Jesus Christ, allows people to sin, and not face any consequences for it ?

Comments please....

and this my friend is the term of the amnesty program, that is...

don't take god for a sucker.


.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Was this same 'amnesty program' available to those in the Old Testament? If not, why not?

 

[hybrid]

Was this same 'amnesty program' available to those in the Old Testament? If not, why not?

good question. honestly i don't have a ready answer.(for lack of abundant scriptural materials to formulate a definite doctrine about this matter). bt i suppose we can opine.

i think those who had never heard the name of jesus from the past and even up to the present time, god will judge them according to their conscience. i find my peace to this dilemma by trusting god to be a perfectly fair judge.

and i'm not ready to summarily dismiss that those who have never had the chance to avail this amnesty will automatically go to eternal condemnation.

to do so is to preempt his office as judge of the living and the dead.

.

 

[Rick W]

The answer lies in Romans. Especially chapter 7. Look at Paul's struggle with recognition of sin. Recognition and struggle are the keywords. The unsaved do not recognise much less struggle with sin based on God's Word. I know I didn't.

I had no problem with getting drunk, one night stands and all that sort of thing. Who was I hurting? Certainly not myself, I'm my own man. What the heck. Who cares what two consenting adults do as long as it's legal. Live and let live... to each his own...
There's a difference. A big one.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There's a lot in chapter 7 even though it's a comparatively short chapter.

 

[hybrid]

guys i think this is quite revelealing and relevant to the topic at hand...

Rom 2:5-16
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
NIV

 

[Geo]

I think this whole issue has consequences whether there is actual
repentance or not. I do not believe in this whole story of acceptable
"christian sin" without repentance. It's a clear case of ' what satan
wants us to do ' and leads to corruption and unholiness. And also
to lose the soul at the judgment seat of Christ.

Getting seriously worked up to discover the source of this influence,
as far as I can see it today we looked too long only in the direction of
Rome for all deception. Possibly there are a few things mixed into the
reformation that are even deadlier.

I would like to discuss this with someone that is a Christian without
being expressivly Calvinist, Lutherean or Protestant. Send a PM
to check the authenticity of the matter.

 

[cj]

When Christianity Makes No Sense !

Not when, but simply, "Christianity makes no sense!"

Honestly, it doesn't, as Christianity is simply men taking the things of God and using them according to the ways of the old man.

Which does not mean that those who do this are unsaved, it means that though saved they choose in this life to remain living according to the old nature.

Which is really the focus of Jay T's considerations as we will see.

What is the difference between the sins, committed by a Non-Christian, and a 'saved' Christian ?

No difference in terms of what these sins may look like, but a huge difference in terms of eternal consequences.

To understand this better we need to be clear about the matter of sin.

Sin is the expression of Satan's mind, and sin (i.e. sinning) is the participation in this expression.

And what does this expression of Satan's mind look like?

Death.

And what does participation in this expression look like?

Death.

Death is the antithesis of God.

Now, understanding this that God is life and sin (Satan) is death, lets take a look at man and how being saved or unsaved differs.

When Adam sin he lost access to the tree of life and thus entered into death. This is unsaved man; and any who come from this first Adam are brought into this world in death, meaning, unsaved.

Why? Because they are without God, without life.

But this was never a part of God's plan, for God created man to be His expression in creation, and so God had planned a plan to recover man from his position of death and bring man back to life.

But there is more, for God also had an enemy, an adversary thta He needed to deal with, and so in His plan of man's redemption He also included a plan to deal with His adversary once and for all, through His plan of redemption for man.

And how would He do this?

By first showing man his true condition, then coming to man in the form of the Son and giving His life for the forgiveness of the sins of men according to a system of redemption He had instituted for men (the law) as a part of His giving men the opportunity to be saved (under the old covenant), which most men rejected.

Because of what Jesus did all sins of men have been forgiven.

ALL, FROM BEFORE JESUS THROUGH TO THE END OF THIS AGE OF GRACE,... ALL SINS OF MEN HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN.

Yet there remains one requirement, for the receiving of this gift of forgiveness lies in the receiving/believing of the Son as Lord and Savior of men.

This is a candybar that we can pickup in the shop and walk away with giving no thought and appreciation to the owner of the store who is giving it away.

No, God requires that men who want this gift bend their knee (be humble) and declare the truth, while believing it, regarding who Jesus is.

This is great, and along the lines of the old Jewish law, where Jews bent their knee and declared the truth regarding who God is, by offering sacrifices at the temple of God.

But there is a hugh difference, a hugh addition,... whereas the Jews needed to simply bring a physical sacrifice as an offering to declare God, those who declare the truth about Jesus must do so believing in and out of faith. For the blood that is acceptable to God is no longer the blood of animals but is the blood of His Son, the Lamb of God.

Men cannot see this blood and so must believe it is there and that God has accepted it, by faith.

And here is where a speration of men takes place, for according to the promise of God made to Abraham, any who believe in Him by faith will receive a far greater gift than slavation unto eternal life, they will receive Gid Himself in them and one with them.

No Jew that is saved according to the law has ever or will ever have God in them and one with them, but the person who believes by faith receives this greater gift.

And this is why Jesus said that even John the Baptist, he who was the greatest of those born of women, and a man who will have eternal life, is lesser than the least of those who believe by faith and thus receive God inwardly and thus become one with God.

Now understand this,... what I am saying does not mean that God shares His Godhead with men. God is God and shares this with no creature.

But what I am saying is that those who believe by faith will have a far greater experience of God than those who are saved by the law, or even in the ways God provided before the law.

Also understand this, believing by faith does not just mean those who did so after Christ's death and resurrection, because if a person believed by faith before this happened God would count this believing forward to our Lord's death and resurrection, and thus they too will one day be filled with God.

There is one difference though, inthat where they must wait on their own resurrection to experience this infilling of God, believers who believed in faith after Christ's death and resurrection were/are immediately filled and thus can enjoy God's infilling in this present life.

Believer's today have something no other person in the history of mankind has ever had. We have God dwelling in us, one with us even as we live out our time on this earth.

Which brings us to the question, if we have God in us and are one with Him, how then do we still enter into sin/sinning?

The answer lies in understanding that man is a tripartite being, spirit, soul, and body, and that God in His wisdom and for His prupose has chosen to save men through a process of regeneration and transformation, a process that can best be described by taking a plant as an example.

Think of a plant that looks to be dead. To the eye its looks brown and dried-up and only good to be thrown away. But to some who know plants they understand that underneath all of that there may be an aspect of the plant that is alive, and that given time and the proper care, eventually this plant will manifest this inward life in an outward way.

This is how it is with God in saved men.

Because of what Jesus did men who receive what He did and believe Who He is will have eternal life. But because God promised something more, God comes into saved men and makes believers one with life/Himself (for God is life).

But it takes time for this reality to appear on the surface. And during this time what remains of the old man can manifest itself in different ways and to different degrees. Therefore, saved men sin.

How?

Because only the spirit of a saved man hsa been fully regenerated and transformed, not the soul nor the body.

And God wanted it this way, He wanted to leave man in a struggle for his soul, a struggle between taking the way of the fallen old flesh or taking the way of the regenerated and transformed new spirit.

And what is this reason?

It is a declaration to all creation of God's wonderfulness, His beauty, and His attraction.

For some men even as they are caught in the middle of the old and the new, out of love choose the new over the old, and in doing so declare the glory of God in man.

Which was always God's plan for man.

One day all men will declare His glory in one way or another. But for a time on this earth even now there is a foretaste of that which is to come, men declaring God's glory.

But it is not an easy thing, it is the hardest of all things a man will do for it requires the denying of your very self, your very person, so that you become an empty vessel that God can fill with Himself.

All believers are saved, yet only a few choose to deny the ways of the old man. Just as all Israelites were God's chosen, yet when called to return to God (Jerusalem and His temple) they choose to stay in Babylon, in a place of captivity. Just as most believers today choose to remain in the captivity of the old man.

In other words: When a Non-Christian commits sin...they are going to Hell.
BUT...when the Christian commits, the very same sin....they are going to heaven...just because they believe in Jesus Christ ?

As though believing in Jesus Christ, allows people to sin, and not face any consequences for it ?

No, you are actually mixing up different matters.

Not gaining eternal life is not a matter of suffering consequences for sinning. It is a matter of not believing into Christ.

All men are saved, but some refuse to believe this and thus give themselve over to death and all that is associated with it.

Its a matter of life versus death, not life versus consequences.

Now, men who sin absolutely suffer the consequences of their sin,... if God so chooses to allow it (He can forgive if He wants for He is God), and according to the degree to which He allows it.

Men suffer the consequences of their sin every day even as they live out their life on this earth.

Yet while they are alive they still have the hope of being eternally saved.


In love,
cj

 

[Jay T]

The answer lies in Romans. Especially chapter 7. Look at Paul's struggle with recognition of sin. Recognition and struggle are the keywords. The unsaved do not recognise much less struggle with sin based on God's Word. I know I didn't.

I had no problem with getting drunk, one night stands and all that sort of thing. Who was I hurting? Certainly not myself, I'm my own man. What the heck. Who cares what two consenting adults do as long as it's legal. Live and let live... to each his own...
There's a difference. A big one.

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There's a lot in chapter 7 even though it's a comparatively short chapter.

Be very careful with Romans chapter 7 !
For example: IF...Paul was the converted person in Romans 7.....he said of himself: verse 14....'But I am carnal, sold under sin'
Yet, in chapter 8:7; we read ....'the being carnal, is emnity [against] God'.