When did Moses or Abraham accept Jesus. . . to go to Heaven?

[cyberjosh]

But they didn't see it as "God's son becoming the sacrifice for sins". Still, did they get into heaven outside a "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ"? "Only by THAT NAME can men be saved!" :gah

Yes, but whose name does Jesus himself bear? His father's name: revealed in the OT as Yahweh, and Christ's name Yeshua (shortened from Yehoshua) means Yahweh saves. Jesus said over and over that he came to do the Father's will and that if we have seen Jesus we have also seen the Father. "I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are" (John 17:11). Moses and Abraham saw the necessity of God's grace through atonement and looked toward the promised sacrifice to come which they saw a shadow of. Abraham saw the place of necessary sacrifice "afar" off when God tested him with Issac, "on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off" (Genesis 22:4) and when God graciously supplied a substitute the shadow & type was there established to Abraham of what was to come. Jesus revealed of Abraham, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad" (John 8:56). Abraham had faith in God's salvation and atonement, fulfilled in Christ since the foundation of the world.

Moses too had the numerous types of Christ provided to him in the law, and reading Hebrews just this morning I took particular notice of Hebrews 4:2 which says, "For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them [speaking of the Israelites in the OT]; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it". They had the same elements in the types and shadows of the law which was a tutor to guide one to Christ, as Paul tells us, but did not have faith in God nor did they obey the laws. Moreover Moses specifically prophesied of another like him to come after him that God would require them to listen to. This was a clear prophecy of Christ and no doubt Moses recognized Christ's authority because of it.

Abraham and Moses accepted the necessity revealed to them of the sacrificial atonement made clear by revelations God had given to them, even if it was in types and shadows.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

First of all, we must realize, Abraham is NOT promised a place in heaven. He was promised a number of things, but not to go to heaven.
...
In conclusion, Abraham and his offsprings through Isaac and Jacob (Israel) are promised a glorious kingdom with Messiah Jesus as King. This, IMO, is the golden millennial age to come, on the restored earth.

All believing saints (OT & NT) are not destined to spend eternity in Heaven but rather on the New Earth once the new Heavens and Earth are created, and even prior to that (although the timing of that depends on your eschatalogical POV) during the mellenial reign the promises applied there, though specific promises were made to the Jewish nation as emisarries to the Gentile nations, will not be seperate from the NT saint. Paul said that if we endure for Christ's sake then we will also rule with Christ (2 Timothy 2:12), and so we too can be pictured as being in the millenial kingdom with Christ reigning at that time. At any rate Abraham's promises should not be looked at as different from what was promised to NT believers, heaven or otherwise (though the "heaven" issue is commonly misunderstood).

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bick]

Cybershark quote:
"All believing saints (OT & NT) are not destined to spend eternity in Heaven but rather on the New Earth once the new Heavens and Earth are created, and even prior to that (although the timing of that depends on your eschatalogical POV) during the mellenial reign the promises applied there, though specific promises were made to the Jewish nation as emisarries to the Gentile nations, will not be seperate from the NT saint. Paul said that if we endure for Christ's sake then we will also rule with Christ (2 Timothy 2:12), and so we too can be pictured as being in the millenial kingdom with Christ reigning at that time. At any rate Abraham's promises should not be looked at as different from what was promised to NT believers, heaven or otherwise (though the "heaven" issue is commonly misunderstood)."
God Bless,
~Josh

MY COMMENTS: I don't see it that way, Josh. Paul was a called out Apostle and Teacher primarily to the Gentiles, who would make up the church/body of Christ along with certain believing Jews.

While the good news of being declared "just" by faith, was told of in the OT, God's purpose for the Body of Christ, that those in the Body are declared heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ. Our future is in the heavenlies to enjoy all the spiritual blessings God is preparing. Through the church/body, in the on coming eons, the incomparable riches of his Grace expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus, will be displayed by the church/body. God's purpose is that through the church/body, His manifold wisdom should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenlies.

Read Ephesians chapters one through three.

 

[Sparkey]

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

:help I looked for the Scripture about Jesus descending and proclaiming the good news to the dead. Looked but couldn't find. Am sure it's there though :yes

~Sparrow

 

[stranger]

1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

:help I looked for the Scripture about Jesus descending and proclaiming the good news to the dead. Looked but couldn't find. Am sure it's there though :yes

~Sparrow

Greetings Sparrow,

Sounds like the passage in 1 Peter3 :

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

I seem to recall a translation that uses the word 'nethergloom' for 'prison.'

blessings

 

[Sparkey]

YES!! Thank you kindly mr. stranger!

• Here, a gift for you: The song of Moshe.

[youtube:37pwii06]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUTqr2XbeQ[/youtube:37pwii06]

 

[Orion]

So, then it is perfectly fine for people to hear the gospel message AFTER death, AND make a decision at that time. As I expected. Thank you!

 

[Sparkey]

So, then it is perfectly fine for people to hear the gospel message AFTER death, AND make a decision at that time. As I expected. Thank you!

lol - yeah, if you expect Jesus to die again after you die --- maybe you should use the opportunity you have now?

Jesus is alive, don't 'cha know? He can't die in the body He's in now. But you already know and don't need me to say this. But I liked the way you "grabbed" onto this "Jacob / Orion" ---- try wrestling it out with God.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[Vic C.]

So, then it is perfectly fine for people to hear the gospel message AFTER death, AND make a decision at that time. As I expected. Thank you!

lol - yeah, if you expect Jesus to die again after you die --- maybe you should use the opportunity you have now?

Jesus is alive, don't 'cha know? He can't die in the body He's in now. But you already know and don't need me to say this. But I liked the way you "grabbed" onto this "Jacob / Orion" ---- try wrestling it out with God.

~Sparrowhawke

He's got a point, Orion. Jesus, according to 1 Pet 3:19, preached a one time message to the imprisoned souls. How this is possible and what the message was is up to interpretation, but Peter recorded it for a reason. ;)

Soon after this event, He was resurrected. The Gospel message of salvation through Jesus is now in full effect.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Read that and also read Romans 2:14-16 you may begin to understand that God doesn't leave anyone out unjustifiably, for God IS just... and fair. :amen

 

[mondar]

1 Peter 3:18 He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Ephesians 4:9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

So, then it is perfectly fine for people to hear the gospel message AFTER death, AND make a decision at that time. As I expected. Thank you!

If your speculation is correct, it will make not the slightest difference. Even if Christ went to some spiritual prison and preached the good news, men will make the same decision in death that they made in life. There is no hope in a 2nd, 3ird, or 25th chance. The natural man is a rebel through and through. By nature we suppress knowledge of God. The natural man is a slave to sin in life, and will be a slave to sin after death. If one dies in his sins, there is no hope, no man can come to Christ in life (John 6:44) and no man will come to Christ in death. No, if some evil spirits met Christ after death, they will cursed him then too. We are rebels and sinners to the core. There is no end to our rebellion. We think our rebellion just. We continually think the fault lies with God, with his word. In death we will still ask the same questions.... "Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?......9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? In death we will question his justice The natural man will blame God in death just as he did in life. We are by nature, objects of Gods wrath (Eph 2:3). Again, we are objects of his wrath (Romans 9:22).

We dont like to think of ourselves as condemned. We dont like to think of ourselves as deserving eternal wrath. We hate the thought of our guilt and want to justify ourselves by any other means then Christ's shed blood as a propitiation (gift that turns away wrath).

I am no better. I am part of the same lump of clay as the rest of humanity. I know what I deserve. The only difference is God choice to give me faith and justify me by Christs blood.


23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;
26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded.

Faith? There will be no more faith in Christ in eternity then in the present.

 

[Bick]

Greetings: Concerning the subject of "death," all Bible passages should be considered.

In the OT we are told many times, that in the grave, there is no remembrance, no praise, no knowledge:

Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in the grave who can give thee thanks?" AV.

Psa. 30:9 "What profit [is there] in my blood when I go down to the pit (grave)? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"

Psa. 88:10-12 "Wilt thou show wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee?
Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? [or] thy faithfulness in destruction?
Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"

Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence."

Eccl. 8:5 "..for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou
goest."

Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee: death can not celebrate thee..."

CONCLUSION: DEATH IS THE OPPOSITE OF LIFE. Therefore: in 1 Peter 4:6, it has to mean 'the gospel was preached to them who are (now) dead.'

Let us read carefully the passage in 1 Peter 3:18-20:

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,.....being put to death in [the] flesh (NOTICE, HE IS DEAD),
but quickened by [the] Spirit (NOTICE, HE IS QUICKENED--MADE ALIVE, BY THE POWER OF GOD'S SPIRIT), by (literally "in" from the Greek "en") which he went and preached unto the spirits in prison..."

The word translated "preached" is "ekeruzen" --Greek, which means "hearalded" or "proclaimed".

So, IMO, after His resurrection, Christ, in spirit, went to the deep, gloomy caverns (wherever that is), the prison of the fallen angels (who were said to marry the daughters of the Adam, and have children, sons of renown, during the days prior to the flood). There, Christ hearalded His being alive to nevermore die, to those disobedient spirits. NOTICE: Not "souls"!

 

[Orion]

I COMPLETELY disagree that "people would make the same choice (not to believe/follow God) in death as they did in life. I couldn't dissagree more, in fact. There are MANY who "don't believe" SIMPLY because of lacking evidence. That is completely different than openly rejecting that which YOU KNOW TO BE TRUE!!!!

As to "Jesus ministering to the souls in hell", if Jesus isn't bound by TIME, then what was done at one point in OUR history makes no difference. It is said that Jesus preached to the dead, assuming that many would believe. Therefore, it is fine AND righteous for him to do so, . . . and if that avenue isn't used for everyone, then it would be the same as "god giving up too soon".

This is just MY opinion. I realize that no one on here CAN accept these words because it goes against current christian dogma/doctrine, . . . . but that doesn't make the words any less valid IF God trulu cares for everyone AND wants them to come to repentence, as is reported.

 

[Paidion]

But they didn't see it as "God's son becoming the sacrifice for sins". Still, did they get into heaven outside a "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ"? "Only by THAT NAME can men be saved!"

Where do you read in the scripture of a "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ"? No one is saved through knowledge. Neither are we saved by believing certain facts, such as "believing God's son is the sacrifice for sins." Saving faith is not "trusting in the finished work of Christ". Saving faith is entrusting our whole beings to Jesus Christ, forsake self-service and enter His service, and to walk in faith and so, through His sacrifice, overcome sin and live righteously.

And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. II Corinthians 5:15

 

[Vic C.]

So, IMO, after His resurrection, Christ, in spirit, went to the deep, gloomy caverns (wherever that is), the prison of the fallen angels (who were said to marry the daughters of the Adam, and have children, sons of renown, during the days prior to the flood). There, Christ hearalded His being alive to nevermore die, to those disobedient spirits. NOTICE: Not "souls"!

Bick, I had a reason for saying souls and not spirits like Peter's verse says. First off, there is this interchangeability of the words soul and spirit in the NT. But the OT gives a clearer picture of where the spirit is after death.

Eccl 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I COMPLETELY disagree that "people would make the same choice (not to believe/follow God) in death as they did in life. I couldn't dissagree more, in fact. There are MANY who "don't believe" SIMPLY because of lacking evidence. That is completely different than openly rejecting that which YOU KNOW TO BE TRUE!!!!

Orion, why did Jesus say these words?

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Lack of evidence doesn't make for good faith. It can be said it is the opposite of faith. Yet there are still people who would argue that the sky is yellow.

 

[Rick W]

So that we are on the same page, and not guessing what the other is thinking, please just post a response, not a question. Thank you!

"So that we are on the same page, and not guessing what the other is thinking" it would be good to know what you think the promise of God to Abraham was about.

So...
What was the promise from God?

 

[Orion]

I'm done with this thread. Too circular, with vague "answers" . . .

 

[Vic C.]

I'm done with this thread. Too circular, with vague "answers" . . .

OK.