When Does Immortality Begin?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hi Peter

I thought you were agreeing with Allen Wynne .
He believes you're saying something different...
Am I wrong?

good question
this sounds more like he's agreeing with me but I don't know for sure

 

[ezra]

also I'm not sure what happens when we die - do our souls sleep? or do we go into the presence of Jesus? Not sure. I'm working on that one. I had it settled once but the question keeps returning so I guess it wasn't really settled after all.

one of the best answers there is ...not sure what happens when we die ..only thing i know is 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[jasonc]

I can't believe in soul sleep.
Some in the OT believed in this.
I do feel this was taken care of in the NT.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
This very day you will be with Me in paradise.

I question if we go directly to heaven, or have to wait for the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom.
I tend toward heaven because Jesus tore the veil to the holy of holies. He opened the gates...

Abrahams bosom isn't taught in judaism nor is it found in the concept of sheol

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Abrahams bosom isn't taught in judaism nor is it found in the concept of sheol

Guess what?
We're not Jews...

 

[Edward]

also I'm not sure what happens when we die - do our souls sleep? or do we go into the presence of Jesus? Not sure. I'm working on that one. I had it settled once but the question keeps returning so I guess it wasn't really settled after all.

Oh but it is settled, Brother. We're saved...God said, I am the God ofthe living, not the god of the dead. So being absent from the body would mean present with the Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

Abrahams bosom isn't taught in judaism nor is it found in the concept of sheol

It's taught by Jesus.
Luke
The Rich Man and Lazarus.

Hades would be Abraham's Bossom.

Wanna fix that avatar?

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter

I thought you were agreeing with Allen Wynne .
He believes you're saying something different...
Am I wrong?

Not that I know of.
I was expanding on the ideas of immortality, and our culture.

It may not be what Allen was thinking about, and certainly I have not expressed things in this
way before. It maybe in one sense in Gods presence we cannot be hurt or damaged.
I was just commenting that this sense of immortality is not a biblically emphasised idea.

Some latter reign followers and their ideas of the super apostles who will reign with Christ are
certainly an idea of being indestructable.

 

[jasonc]

It's taught by Jesus.
Luke
The Rich Man and Lazarus.

Hades would be Abraham's Bossom.

Wanna fix that avatar?

It's a parable, Jesus used taught Jewish concepts .I can look up Gan eden,mentioned by jesus,paradise,is a concept the theif had to know.they have a ton of things to say,about it,gehenna,as well.

Luke 16 in context is using a parable to warn the pharisees.sheol is where all the dead went and two levels of it are taught.

There's more but those levels are for another thread

 

[Papa Zoom]

I can't believe in soul sleep.
Some in the OT believed in this.
I do feel this was taken care of in the NT.

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
This very day you will be with Me in paradise.

I question if we go directly to heaven, or have to wait for the resurrection in Abraham's Bossom.
I tend toward heaven because Jesus tore the veil to the holy of holies. He opened the gates...

I have something that NT Wright said about it. He had some interesting insights. I tend to believe as you stated above. One day I'll find out how it all fits together!

 

[jasonc]

Guess what?
We're not Jews...

I am,so the names of God are in English, we should just ignore the first audience?

They have to know what he means.lazarus is named but not the rich man surely in judea,not very big that would be known.Jesus called the pharisees out ,the writers didn't have to name them,yet it's odd that they didn't in the one case.lazarus means poor man and isn't a name .

 

[Papa Zoom]

one of the best answers there is ...not sure what happens when we die ..only thing i know is 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Yeah that verse is a hard one to ignore regarding this question. It does seem to make things clear.

 

[jasonc]

I am,so the names of God are in English, we should just ignore the first audience?

They have to know what he means.lazarus is named but not the rich man surely in judea,not very big that would be known.Jesus called the pharisees out ,the writers didn't have to name them,yet it's odd that they didn't in the one case.lazarus means poor man and isn't a name .

Angels carried the dead is only mentioned there in Luke 16,the other is buried.so did lazarus not die? The resurrection hasn't occured.sheol is the concept of a prison to hold the dead until the final judgement.

I have to look up thar in jewry which is gonna be different, they use gehinnom in a similiar manner.

 

[whatgoeshere?]

Allen Wynne said:
Guess what?
We're not Jews...

Guess what? Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew. And to their house he was first sent.

 

[JohnDB]

The answer is mathmatics in nature.

Since Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the Earth were made...
And it was Jesus who spread out the Heavens like someone unfurls a tent....

That means that literally and figuratively all at the same time.

In order to see God face to face we, like God have to be eternal... without beginning and end.
Meaning that we were in Heaven as Jesus was crucified and before the foundations of the world were laid.

It's somewhat easier to imagine walking across time like a person would walk across the room. But it's the best analogy I can think of. Time is a creation of God's. To meet Him we can no longer be bound by it's rigidity.

 

[Randy]

Definition of immortality
: the quality or state of being immortal:
: unending existence:
: lasting fame


When do we become immortal...
Immediately after death,
or when we receive our glorified body at the resurrection at the end of time.

It begins with Jesus
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.d
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

 

[Justicewolf]

All souls are God's, Ezekiel 18:4. I think we are immortal the moment God creates our soul from his own self, power, essence.

 

[Randy]

Guess what? Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew. And to their house he was first sent.

Those who obey Gods commandments AND hold to the testimony of Jesus are called the children of God.
Jesus was and is the Christ. The name Christ-ian was coined for those that believe in Jesus and follow His teachings and commands. Prior to that it was called "the way"
Jesus introduced a new or revised covenant in His blood.

The same message that was first introduced in Israel was sent to all the world. In todays definition Jesus would be called a jew because He had a jewish mother. But Jesus predates Abraham. It it wasn't the words of a jew it was the words of the Father (God) Jesus spoke and taught.

 

[Jim Parker]

Definition of immortality
: the quality or state of being immortal:
: unending existence:
: lasting fame


When do we become immortal...
Immediately after death,
or when we receive our glorified body at the resurrection at the end of time.

When you believe. (If I understand what you mean by immortal)
When you believe you are given eternal life.
Yes, your body will die (if the Lord doesn't come first) but you will not stay dead and you will be raised again so that your body and soul will experience eternal life.

That is "IF"...

Definition of the word “if” per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/
a : in the event that
b : allowing that
c : on the assumption that
d : on condition that

The word “if” introduces a potential outcome based on a condition.

Ex: “If (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) you eat that mushroom (the condition) you may die. (the potential outcome)

Ex. “if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) any one's name was not found written in the book of life, (the condition) he was thrown in the lake of fire. (the potential outcome) (Rev 20:15 RSV)

Ex: if (in the event that, allowing that, on the assumption that, on condition that) Christ has not been raised, (the condition) then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. (the potential outcome) (1 Cor 15:14 RSV)

It logically follows that the failure to meet the condition will result in the potential outcome not coming to pass. So, with reference to the first example, if you do NOT eat the mushroom you will not die from the effects of eating it.

COL 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.

The outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” is contingent upon the condition that “YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

It follows logically that if one does NOT “CONTINUE IN (HIS) FAITH, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel,” (fails to meet the condition) then the potential outcome of being “reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight” will not become a reality.

HEB 3:14 We have come to share in Christ IF WE HOLD FIRMLY TILL THE END THE CONFIDENCE WE HAD AT FIRST.

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition is: If we DO NOT hold firmly then we HAVE NOT come to share in Christ.

2 PE 1:5-10 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For IF you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For IF YOU DO THESE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER FALL,

The logically inferred opposite outcome of the opposite condition: If you DO NOT DO these things the possibility of falling is a reality.

2 PE 2:15a They have forsaken the right way and gone astray,…
2 PE 2:20-22 For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

This is a reference to “saved” people who have left the faith and returned to their old ways of which the end is destruction. They were once saved and now they are not. They once had the gift of eternal life and they had discarded it.

EZE 18:24 "But IF a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, HE WILL DIE.

In this case, both the positive and negative conditions and potential outcomes are stated.

So; believe and have eternal life then stick with it til the end.


iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

I think we are immortal the moment God creates our soul from his own self, power, essence.

It appears that scripture says otherwise.

Ro 2:6-10 God will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eze 18:20 “The soul who sins shall die."....




iakov the fool

 

[Traveling teacher]

Apparently God created man and the angels and they coudnt be destoyed......
We all have etenal souls......
We iether go into eternal life with Christ...
John 3:15-6

Or we go into eternal destruction in the lake of fire that was made for the devil and his angels.....
Matthew 25:41
Worm does not die qnd fire is not quenched
Isaiah 66:24
Mark 9:44