When does it become Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

[Righteousone]

It becomes blasphemy toward the holy Spirit WHEN ONE JUDGES the operation of God as evil and takes it as his duty to persecute it.
Jesus refers to sin and blasphemy against the Holy spirit as unforgiven sin, the attribute of deity, irreverance toward something considered Sacred. (Luke 12:10).

 

[Rick W]

Did Paul judge the operation of God and take it as his duty to persecute it?
Seems like he persecuted those following Christ and I think that may be classed as an operation of God.
If so then is Paul unforgiven?

 

[Righteousone]

Of course he's forgiven..he persecuted BEFORE God called him. He changed from Saul to Paul because he became a Christian, an apostle of Christ. He is in heaven sitting on one of the twelve thrones made for the disciples...
Goes to show you, God can do whatever he wishes, even the saints were sinners.

 

[Rick W]

I was just curious.
Paul is such an exceptional fellow isn't he?

 

[handy]

I live deep in Mormon territory. While there are only two Mormon families in our little community, in the county, Mormons make up the largest religious group, by far. They are moral, kind, upstanding and dependable people. They are the sort of neighbors that one can only dream of having. Spiritually though, they are in the darkest of darkness.

I've often wondered about Joseph Smith and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. See, the Bible is the work of the Holy Spirit. And, Smith had to have delved quite deep in the Bible, in order to twist the truths taught within the scriptures the way that he did. Could it have been possible that he was that conversant with the Holy Scriptures and yet fail to see the Spirit of God within them. Did Joseph Smith committ blasphemy of the Holy Spirit by denying the truth of the Scriptures message and replacing it with lies of his own?

Not that I think that Mormon's themselves are committing blaspheme of the Spirit just because they are Mormon. But, Smith himself, him I wonder about.

 

[Righteousone]

I was just curious.
Paul is such an exceptional fellow isn't he?

Are you asking me or do you already know? What religion are you if any?

 

[Imagican]

Denial of or speaking outright against The Spirit.

Paul IS forgiven for he was able to allow a 'change in his heart' and CEASED to 'be against The Spirit'.

Paul was NO exception other than the AMOUNT of love that he allowed INTO his heart.

MEC

 

[Rick W]

Of course he's forgiven..he persecuted BEFORE God called him.

So if you're never called you can't blasphemy the Holy Spirit? Only those who are called can do that?

handy,
Smith expounds at length for his exposure to religion while young. There was contention even among his family on religious matters and debate was frequent. He learned quite a bit during those years.
There's some issue though if Smith was the sole author of the BoM. Some suspect Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery had a hand in it's conception. Then there's the issue about Martin Harris losing the first 116 pages of the "manuscript", which because God was angered that Smith loaned them to Harris that those pages would never be duplicated. Thing is, nobody knew if those pages would turn up again so retranslating wasn't a very good idea. Some believe Lucy Harris had some hand in their "disapearance" that they may have been given to friends or just hidden somewhere.

Anyway, Co-authorship wouldn't help Smith's image as a prophet. So delving into that issue will be met be a lot of resistance.

 

[Rick W]

Paul was NO exception other than the AMOUNT of love that he allowed INTO his heart.

I don't think he had much choice.
Probably about as much as Jonah had. :D

 

[Imagican]

Pot,

How MANY are JUST as Paul or Jonah who's stories have NOT been written or names NOT included in the 'book of life'?

The 'exception' is that these, (Jonah and Saul), were ABLE to allow God's love INTO their hearts.

How many others simply CHOSE to continue in denial and living their lives Separate from what has been revealed? Their names we may not know in numbers or detail. But when we read Romans, we PLAINLY see that God HAS or WILL reveal Himself to EVERY SINGLE person on this planet. The difference is, only a small number will HEED what has been offered.

I personally believe that God 'whispers' in the ears of ALL. Whether there is an actual genetic connection that He has offered, (what science would call instinct), or it is more of a 'Spiritual' aspect, who knows. But that He DOES make the connection in the hearts and minds of ALL is the ONLY way in which He could RIGHTEOUSLY judge EVERYONE.

That some simply IGNORE the 'whisper' or actually CHOOSE to rebel against it, that does NOT negate the indication that He 'attempts' to reveal Himself to ALL.

MEC

MEC

 

[Rick W]

Look MEC,
You get hit with the Spirit like Paul was (and mind you God is love) there's no way he'd be thinking about whether or not to allow that kind of love into his heart. God wanted him for a mission and that was that. All through his ministry he testified to that experience with no credit of his own. None. In fact he even declared he was the sinner of sinners. He "allowed" nothing. He recieved everything. And that by the GRACE of God.

 

[Righteousone]

I love St. Paul. He is an apostle of hope. That even though you commit that terrible sin as he did, God will forgive you. God blinded him for three days and opened his eyes. After that he was a changed man. I love his letters, even tho Luther changed his Scripture to read "We are saved by faith", to "We are saved by faith ALONE". (Sorry, I couldn't resist). :-D

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I love St. Paul. He is an apostle of hope. That even though you commit that terrible sin as he did, God will forgive you. God blinded him for three days and opened his eyes. After that he was a changed man. I love his letters, even tho Luther changed his Scripture to read "We are saved by faith", to "We are saved by faith ALONE". (Sorry, I couldn't resist). :-D

Ol' Luther was something else, wasn't he. LOL

 

[Vic C.]

... and what, or who saved Paul? Was it anything he had done? No, he was a bad, bad man. If it wasn't for the Grace of God, Paul would not have the faith he had.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Why do you people leave out verse nine? :-?

 

[Imagican]

Look MEC,
You get hit with the Spirit like Paul was (and mind you God is love) there's no way he'd be thinking about whether or not to allow that kind of love into his heart. God wanted him for a mission and that was that. All through his ministry he testified to that experience with no credit of his own. None. In fact he even declared he was the sinner of sinners. He "allowed" nothing. He recieved everything. And that by the GRACE of God.

David Koresh, Jim Jones, Jeffrey Dhalmer, Chapman, Jim Baker, the list goes ON AND ON of those that OBVIOUSLY received God's call and THEN turned their BACKS on Him. Let us not forget Solomon, King Saul, heck, how about Peter who denied Christ THREE times. Denied EVEN KNOWING HIM.

So, PLEASE don't attempt to offer that Paul was NOT an exception in that there WAS 'something SPECIAL' about HIM. Even JONAH'S Story STARTS with him IGNORING God's will and it was THUS that we EVEN have his incredible story.

How MANY do you SUPPOSE that have HAD the SAME calling as Paul that we have NOT read about? We have the PLAIN offering that God will HAVE to 'cut the days short' so that EVEN THE VERY ELECT are NOT 'led away'.

Wake up folks. It's NOT a 'bowl of jelly beans'. It's a battle. And if it were as SIMPLE as you folks have made it sound, there would be NO NEED to destroy the earth ONCE AGAIN.

God is CONTINUOUSLY calling. Some hear and some don't. Some hear and follow. And some hear and DON'T. Some hear, start to follow and then end up in WORSE condition than they were BEFORE their CALLING.

It appears that we have once again a 'picking and choosing' of what PLEASES one's senses. Instead of simply FACING the TRUTH, it seems that MANY would ignore that which is UNPLEASING to their understanding.

Satan WAS the most BEAUTIFUL of angels. Do you DOUBT that there WAS a time that he was COMPLETELY devoted TO GOD? HOW then would he have BECOME the MOST BEAUTIFUL of angels? Yet we can plainly SEE that at one point he REBELED against God to actually 'start a battle AGAINST Him'.

You speak of Paul's experience as if SEEING Christ made it IMPOSSIBLE for him to REBEL against The Spirit. Rediculous. Paul was ABLE to follow. He was NOT FORCED to follow. For we can PLAINLY see Peter's LACK of faith exhibited OVER AND OVER again.

We have MORE examples of those that FAILED than we DO those that have succeeded in remaining faithful EVEN through God's DIRECT intervention. What about JUDAS? Was he not ONE OF THE CHOSEN. Yet EVEN HE allowed temptation to overcome righteousness.

And guys, WHY do you suppose that we have NO record of MANY of the apostles? Why don't we have the COMPLETE story of EACH of the TWELVE? Reacon it may have something to do with SOME of them ABANDONING The Spirit out of FEAR, or LUST, etc....?

So PLEASE don't attempt to lead others to believe in such a falsehood that ONCE they have received The Spirit that there is NO 'turning back'. That is simply fantasy. We are warned OVER AND OVER to 'hang in there'. If it was NOT POSSIBLE to 'turn back' we would HAVE NO SUCH WARNINGS. And this was JUST as possible with Paul as JUDAS, Satan, Jonah, Saul, David, Abraham, Lot, ANYONE that has EVER existed. I personally believe that EVEN Christ COULD have chosen to bow to temptation if He had NOT had the audacity to STAND up to the devil.

Peter who was on numerous occasion TOLD that he represented the DEVIL. How LONG must I be among you? And these that actually WALKED WITH CHRIST. Hmmmmm........Interesting theology indeed for one to even THINK that one is UNABLE to 'turn away'.

And how about this, "Even NOW there are those that have GONE OUT FROM AMONG US".............. Wow, did y'all somehow MISS the implications of ALL that I have offered. Choosing some 'cherry filled Donut theology' over the TRUTH of the world in which we live?

God, or Christ did NOT force Paul to DO anything. He was ENABLED to follow the TRUE path but COULD have at ANY time 'turned away FROM IT. Adam and Eve WALKED with God........Remember?

Satan does NOT concentrate on the LOST of this world, his efforts are DIRECTED at those that ARE SAVED. It is THESE that his 'greatest efforts' are DIRECTED AT. And for GOOD reason. There is NOTHING more pleasing to HIM than the FALL of one of God's CHOSEN.

Hmmmmm.........Christ was tempted THREE times at ONE TIME that we know of. And we also have Him being tempted by those of HIS OWN FLOCK. And do you THINK that we HAVE this written account for NO REASON?

Paul even offered that he was taken in spirit to the very EDGE of heaven. But for the SAKE of the pride that may have POSSIBLY caused his FALL, he was stoped SHORT of all the possible glory that he may have SEEN in the flesh.

Don't do what you have attempted to do to those that are ABLE to be led in such a direction. That SORT of complacency IS what Satan USES to accomplish his goal as to the subversion of those that LOVE God. If anything, stern warning would be in order rather than a 'false belief' that ONCE one is 'saved' that they are UNABLE to 'turn away'. OSAS is a 'false doctrine' that is quite dangerous to place one's FAITH in.

Fear and trembling folks. Take NOTHING for 'granted'. God is ONLY able to offer strength. He is NOT able to 'save' those that CHOOSE to be LOST.

MEC

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Pot,

How MANY are JUST as Paul or Jonah who's stories have NOT been written or names NOT included in the 'book of life'?

The 'exception' is that these, (Jonah and Saul), were ABLE to allow God's love INTO their hearts.

How many others simply CHOSE to continue in denial and living their lives Separate from what has been revealed? Their names we may not know in numbers or detail. But when we read Romans, we PLAINLY see that God HAS or WILL reveal Himself to EVERY SINGLE person on this planet. The difference is, only a small number will HEED what has been offered.

I personally believe that God 'whispers' in the ears of ALL. Whether there is an actual genetic connection that He has offered, (what science would call instinct), or it is more of a 'Spiritual' aspect, who knows. But that He DOES make the connection in the hearts and minds of ALL is the ONLY way in which He could RIGHTEOUSLY judge EVERYONE.

That some simply IGNORE the 'whisper' or actually CHOOSE to rebel against it, that does NOT negate the indication that He 'attempts' to reveal Himself to ALL.

MEC

MEC

MEC - how long are you going to kick against he goads? God is the God of the living. He does not give life to those who are not in the book of life.

Look, Jesus made it clear that the gospel is NOT for all.

"The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

And this is a scary thought isn’t it. God actually blocks the perceiving and understanding so that people WILL NOT turn and be forgiven.

Scripture IS a parable. The gospel IS a parable. Those who are perishing CAN NEVER understand it because it is foolishness to them. He DOES NOT make the connection in ALL (as in the entirety of mankind) but in ALL who will receive life.

Listen again to what scripture says, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.â€Â

If man thinks he can do anything either to choose God or even to choose to respond to God, he is up the creek without a paddle. In fact he is in the wrong creek. Ed 1:1 (EDified version)

 

[Rick W]

How MANY do you SUPPOSE that have HAD the SAME calling as Paul that we have NOT read about?

Then I suppose we're missing out on a lot of scripture.
So tell me, how many people to you know or have bumped into that has penned anything that may be considered scripture?

 

[Imagican]

How MANY do you SUPPOSE that have HAD the SAME calling as Paul that we have NOT read about?

Then I suppose we're missing out on a lot of scripture.
So tell me, how many people to you know or have bumped into that has penned anything that may be considered scripture?

That IS my EXACT point. How MANY may have been CHOSEN other than Paul Himself BEFORE Paul HEEDED his CALL? We DON'T have the 'others' gospels or scripture for they may WELL Have REFUSED to follow WHERE they were being led.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Pot,

How MANY are JUST as Paul or Jonah who's stories have NOT been written or names NOT included in the 'book of life'?

The 'exception' is that these, (Jonah and Saul), were ABLE to allow God's love INTO their hearts.

How many others simply CHOSE to continue in denial and living their lives Separate from what has been revealed? Their names we may not know in numbers or detail. But when we read Romans, we PLAINLY see that God HAS or WILL reveal Himself to EVERY SINGLE person on this planet. The difference is, only a small number will HEED what has been offered.

I personally believe that God 'whispers' in the ears of ALL. Whether there is an actual genetic connection that He has offered, (what science would call instinct), or it is more of a 'Spiritual' aspect, who knows. But that He DOES make the connection in the hearts and minds of ALL is the ONLY way in which He could RIGHTEOUSLY judge EVERYONE.

That some simply IGNORE the 'whisper' or actually CHOOSE to rebel against it, that does NOT negate the indication that He 'attempts' to reveal Himself to ALL.

MEC

MEC

MEC - how long are you going to kick against he goads? God is the God of the living. He does not give life to those who are not in the book of life.

Look, Jesus made it clear that the gospel is NOT for all.

"The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

And this is a scary thought isn’t it. God actually blocks the perceiving and understanding so that people WILL NOT turn and be forgiven.

Scripture IS a parable. The gospel IS a parable. Those who are perishing CAN NEVER understand it because it is foolishness to them. He DOES NOT make the connection in ALL (as in the entirety of mankind) but in ALL who will receive life.

Listen again to what scripture says, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.â€Â

If man thinks he can do anything either to choose God or even to choose to respond to God, he is up the creek without a paddle. In fact he is in the wrong creek. Ed 1:1 (EDified version)

Mutz,

I have NEVER stated that it IS for all. But it most certainly has been OFFERED to all. That there will be many, (most), that are TOO 'caught up in the world' to SEE what has been offered does NOT negate the offer.

I CANNOT believe that what we are here for is to simply 'look out for our own souls'. For we ARE our brothers keepers. If I thought for a second that others were NOT able to be 'influenced' by that which we have to offer, I would 'give up' and just 'let it go'. But the love that has been placed into my heart would NEVER allow me to believe that 'others' don't have a CHANCE.

Mutz, some folks will NEVER understand LOVE. They will NEVER be able to accept it or offer it. These will NEVER understand what has been offered. And MANY of these fill the weekly pews of impotent churches that offer NOTHING other than 'false hope'.

But we ARE to offer example so that those around us are ABLE to see. We ARE to offer testimony to 'prick' the hearts of those that ARE LOST. We are to offer teaching so that those that are lost MAY be found.

I KNOW that the choice that I made WAS a 'concious' decision. At the point of being 'born again' """""I""""" HAD to LET GO. Manipulated BY God? Quite possible. I do NOT know the exact mechanisms of God's WORK. Did God MAKE me accept Him? I don't THINK so. I WANTED God in my life. Begged God to 'come into my life'. Offered? Most DEFINITELY. Was I ABLE to be 'born again' of MY OWN accord? Rediculous to even THINK in such a manner. Am I 'worthy' of what has been offered? NO WAY. The questions of WHY or HOW I CANNOT answer. But that a 'sinner' such as myself CAN be 'born again' is WITHOUT doubt.

Now, could I alter the 'work' that has been done in my life? Could I 'turn my back' on the truth? I have been TOLD by God and His Son and His apostles that I MUST be WILLING to CONTINUE in my walk and I am WELL able to take ANY particular path that I CHOOSE, IF I do NOT submit myself to the WILL of God through The Holy Spirit and allow THEIR guidance, I am quite ABLE to follow WHATSOEVER I CHOOSE.

Can I WORK my way into 'life eternal'? Hardly. But I can CERTAIN be the instrument of MY OWN DOOM.

The 'book of life' to which you refer has NOTHING to do with FORCING WHAT one will CHOSE or refuse. God KNEW the choices that we would MAKE before our very conception. This does NOT negate that the CHOICE of WHAT we will accept or refuse WAS the basis for our names being written or NOT.

And who is to say that something YOU or I DO or SAY may or may NOT have the impact NEEDED to PUSH one in the direction that made it POSSIBLE for their NAMES to be written so many years ago?

The 'elect' are NOT some 'special' individuals CHOSEN from the foundation. The Elect are those that God KNEW would BE from the foundation of this earth.

If what is offered through this PRE- Selected theology were TRUE, then it is an UTTER waste of time to offer testimony. It is an UTTER waste of time for God to offer the gift of TEACHING. It is an utter WASTE of time for prophecy.

No, my friend, you won't get me to 'turn away' so easy.

which leads me to one that will offer some controversy. My next thread. Let's just SEE how much the Spirit HAS to offer to the children of God. And let us see if the 'children of God' are even able to hear His voice.............

Now, let me ask this: Do YOU believe that Saul was JUST 'some dude' walking down the road that was chosen RANDOMLY? Or do you REALIZE that there was 'something special' that was SEEN in him that made it POSSIBLE for him to BECOME what he became? And, do you believe that there HAVE been others that offered the SAME perception of POSSIBILITY that 'for some reason' just didn't LIVE UP to their CALLING? Or, to put it more simply: Do you believe that Paul could have simply 'turned away' from Christ and just continued about his business?

The story of Jonah is a PRIME example of JUST such a situation. The REASON that Jonah was EVEN mentioned is that he REFUSED to follow God's will. HE changed. But HOW MANY do you suppose were JUST LIKE HIM that did NOT change? For he WAS a man that followed God UNTIL God commanded him to do that which he did NOT WANT to do. God DOES punish those He loves and so it was with Jonah. But Jonah could have simply been 'spit out by the fish' and GOT BACK on ANOTHER boat and headed in the OPPOSITE direction than that which he had been LED by God. He had JUST DONE THIS VERY THING.

How many times have EACH of us made the EXACT SAME mistake? And who can say that today or tommorrow we may JUST AS LIKELY REPEAT one of the SAME MISTAKES we've made in the past. So too is our ability to 'turn away' from the TRUTH. We have TONS of examples of those that were GIVEN the TRUTH to begin with yet ALLOWED themselves to be 'turned away from it'.

Satan is continually working to subvert those that LOVE God. Hoping to subvert their LOVE of God into a LOVE OF HIM.

I already offered this Mutz: Why do suppose that it is written that God will HAVE to 'cut the days short in order to PROTECT EVEN THE VERY ELECT? From what you have offered previously, you believe that SOME CANNOT be 'led astray' because their names are in the 'book of life'. I believe that to serve in 'fear and trembling' plainly points out that the 'book' is ABLE to BE altered.

And let me ask this: Is it NOT possible that God CAN alter what is written IN the book which HE created? We KNOW that God IS able to alter the timelines of prophecy. We KNOW that men have had the ability to ALTER God's decisions. Is this 'book of life' UN-alterable? I don't know one way or the other. But I can say this: People change. For the good and for the bad. Some are changed by God and some by Satan. MOST are changed by WHAT'S IN their HEARTS, one way or the other.

And WHO is to say that there weren't names written in this book BUT CONTINUE to BE written even at this VERY MOMENT. Awful lot of 'pre-speculation' concerning what LITTLE is written about this 'book of life'.

My God loves EVERY speck of His creation. That is WHY He created it. That there are parts of His creation that would CHOOSE to refuse Him hurts Him DEEPLY. For it would be IMPOSSIBLE for it to BE any other way. And HOW do I KNOW this? God IS LOVE. And BEING love does NOT allow Him to HATE anything that He has created. He did NOT create sin except in the lives of men. And then only through the forbidding of it. Satan introduced lies and sin into the lives of men. God DOES hate sin.

We have the words written in Genesis. Each day of creation was preceeded by; 'and it was GOOD'. And when we read the sixth day, "it was VERY GOOD". So the CREATION was NOT something that God could HATE. For out of His OWN mouth we have the offering that 'it was GOOD or VERY GOOD'. Now, that there have been MANY that have 'turned away' from truth does NOT negate that FACT that the purpose of 'creation' WAS LOVE.

And if the 'book of life' was a WAY of 'preselecting', how is it that EACH time a soul is saved the 'angels themselves rejoice'? Why would anyone rejoice over a decision that was made BEFORE the foundation of this earth?

No Mutz, I don't BELIEVE that I'm 'kicking' anything other than the hearts of those that refuse to LISTEN to that 'wee voice' crying out to them to LET God INTO their hearts. Allow HIM to 'make the changes' necessary for us to PLEASE Him and our neighbors. And this is DONE through GIVING and NOT taking. But the responsibility IS our OWN. If we CHOOSE to refuse then God has NO CHOICE but to allow us to 'take the path' that we follow. He does NOT want those that He MUST force to LOVE. For this is IMPOSSIBLE. For one CANNOT force the UNDERSTANDING of LOVE. Either one is ABLE to have their eyes and hearts opened, or they are NOT. This 'determinant factor' is NOT up to ME to discern. Only to accept and offer in return that which has been revealed to ME. Whether it is accepted is relatively irrelevant other than the sorrow that one feels in their heart EACH and every time that they witness those that REFUSE.

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

:P MEC- just found this before bed time. Looks like I've got some reading - and will try to come back within a couple days.

Bless you bro