Bible Study When murder is legal

[Webers_Home]

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Not a post.

 

[Webers_Home]

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†. Ex 20:13 . .You shall not kill.

The Hebrew word for "kill" in that commandment is a bit ambiguous, but additional commandments indicate that the killing in Ex 20:13 means murder.

†. Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.

†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

Can one of the Lord's sheep go to hell for murder? No; and in point of fact, they couldn't go to hell even if they broke all ten of the ten commandments; and the reason is that the commandments have jurisdiction over people only while they're alive.

†. Rom 7:1-3 . . Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.

That is a really difficult revelation to make sense of for those of us raised as Catholics. We had it drilled into us since practically the first day of catechism that the commandments are mortal sins. Well; they are mortal sins for everybody else but not for the Lord's sheep because, as far as God is concerned, the Lord's sheep are deceased.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

†. Rom 6:6 . .We know that our old self was crucified with him

†. Rom 7:4 . . You were put to death to the law through the body of Christ

†. Gal 2:19 . . I have been crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you have died

In reality then, and in practicality, the Lord's sheep enjoy just as much immunity to God's laws against murder as Cain did. That is quite an advantage.

Buen Camino
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[Sinthesis]

Explain how that is an advantage.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Explain how that is an advantage.

Simple. The Earthly consequences of our sin do not negate the fact that there are no eternal consequences. This presupposes that our sins are not deliberate, persistent and act as denial that we know the Savior. Even then, however, He is the final judge. We are fruit inspectors. That's all.

 

[Webers_Home]

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Explain how that is an advantage.

I honestly don't know how to respond to your question; and I'm quite frankly amazed anyone would even ask it. I should think that the advantage of immunity from prosecution by God's law speaks for itself.

Take Cain for example. He committed murder; and God's law mandates capital punishment for that offense.

†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

But God didn't outlaw murder until after the Flood at Gen 9:5-6. So then, since murder was not yet forbidden in Cain's day, then God couldn't prosecute him for murder because according to Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17; God's law isn't retroactive. In other words; people can't be prosecuted for violating God's law until after He legislates it.

So then, technically Cain was outside the jurisdiction of God's law; and all that God was at liberty to do was discipline Cain; which he did by taking away his green thumb. In other words; the most that God was at liberty to do was teach Cain a lesson; viz: just as parents teach their children it isn't nice to hit; so God taught Cain it isn't nice to kill. God actually treated Cain not as a felon, but rather, as a naughty child. (cf. Heb 12:5-13)

Buen Camino
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[Sinthesis]

To what end is a Christian to make real and practical use of his immunity from God's legal consequences of murder, presumably in advantage over the non-Christian?

 

[Obadiah]

Sinthesis, are you perhaps looking at the word "advantage" as meaning something that we can do? Like "taking advantage" of God's forgiveness as a reason or excuse to violate one of the commandments or do something else against His word? I don't think that's what the OP means at all. I think he means we, as Christians, have a tremendous advantage over those who reject Christ when it comes to the final judgement day. I doubt any of us have lived our entire lives without violating a single one of the 10 commandments, much less without committing any other sin, and in the end the "wages" of those sins is death (per Romans 6:23)! But we will be forgiven our sins, where those who reject Christ will not be forgiven. Surely you see this as an advantage?

 

[Free]

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†. Ex 20:13 . .You shall not kill.

The Hebrew word for "kill" in that commandment is a bit ambiguous, but additional commandments indicate that the killing in Ex 20:13 means murder.

†. Ex 21:13-14 . . If a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, you shall take him away from my very altar and put him to death.

†. Num 35:31 . . Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death.

Can one of the Lord's sheep go to hell for murder? No; and in point of fact, they couldn't go to hell even if they broke all ten of the ten commandments; and the reason is that the commandments have jurisdiction over people only while they're alive.

†. Rom 7:1-3 . . Are you unaware, brothers (for I am speaking to people who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over one as long as one lives? Thus a married woman is bound by law to her living husband; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law in respect to her husband. Consequently, while her husband is alive she will be called an adulteress if she consorts with another man. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and she is not an adulteress if she consorts with another man.

That is a really difficult revelation to make sense of for those of us raised as Catholics. We had it drilled into us since practically the first day of catechism that the commandments are mortal sins. Well; they are mortal sins for everybody else but not for the Lord's sheep because, as far as God is concerned, the Lord's sheep are deceased.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

†. Rom 6:6 . .We know that our old self was crucified with him

†. Rom 7:4 . . You were put to death to the law through the body of Christ

†. Gal 2:19 . . I have been crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you have died

In reality then, and in practicality, the Lord's sheep enjoy just as much immunity to God's laws against murder as Cain did. That is quite an advantage.

Buen Camino
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I don't quite follow what you're getting at by saying believers have some sort of advantage. What do you mean and how does that relate to murder?

 

[Webers_Home]

I don't quite follow what you're getting at by saying believers have some sort of advantage. What do you mean and how does that relate to murder?

Well; it doesn't mean believers have a 007 license to kill. It simply means that killing won't put them in danger of the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15. But it doesn't mean they wouldn't be in danger of civil justice.

Civil justice is a whole other jurisdiction than divine justice. In the world of civil justice, the Lord's sheep have no immunity at all; but are instead warned at Rom 13:1-6 to comply with the law of the land or risk severe civil penalties for failure to do so: even capital punishment. In other words; believers won't go to hell for murder; but that in no way guarantees protection from the gallows.

Buen Camino
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[Free]

Well; it doesn't mean believers have a 007 license to kill. It simply means that killing won't put them in danger of the reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:10-15. But it doesn't mean they wouldn't be in danger of civil justice.

Civil justice is a whole other jurisdiction than divine justice. In the world of civil justice, the Lord's sheep have no immunity at all; but are instead warned at Rom 13:1-6 to comply with the law of the land or risk severe civil penalties for failure to do so: even capital punishment. In other words; believers won't go to hell for murder; but that in no way guarantees protection from the gallows.

Buen Camino
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But murder is not what puts unbelievers in hell either. And we need to be careful here because murder is still very much just as morally wrong for the believer as it is for the unbeliever. So what do you mean by "advantage"?

 

[Webers_Home]

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But murder is not what puts unbelievers in hell either

Well; if simply calling somebody a fool is sufficient grounds to put people in hell; then I would certainly think murdering them would be sufficient grounds too.

†. Mtt 5:22 . . Anyone who says "You fool" will be in danger of the fire of hell.

†. Rev 21:7-8 . .The murderers place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Not just the murderers will be placed in the lake, but also the unbelieving, the liars, and the sexually immoral. (Rev 21:7-8)

Buen Camino
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[Free]

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Well; if simply calling somebody a fool is sufficient grounds to put people in hell; then I would certainly think murdering them would be sufficient grounds too.

†. Mtt 5:22 . . Anyone who says "You fool" will be in danger of the fire of hell.

†. Rev 21:7-8 . .The murderers place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Not just the murderers will be placed in the lake, but also the unbelieving, the liars, and the sexually immoral. (Rev 21:7-8)

Buen Camino
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But your entire point has been that this is not the case for the believer. So the difference then between those in hell and those not in hell, is whether one is an unbeliever or not, not whether one murders or not, according to what you have said so far.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

But God didn't outlaw murder until after the Flood at Gen 9:5-6. So then, since murder was not yet forbidden in Cain's day, then God couldn't prosecute him for murder because according to Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17; God's law isn't retroactive. In other words; people can't be prosecuted for violating God's law until after He legislates it.

That's very convoluted reasoning, and I don't believe it holds up under examination. God certainly punished Cain for slaying his brother Abel. You also neglect to consider that the effect of Adam and Eve's sin was "murder" of innocence, which may sound ridiculous, but think about it.

When Adam and Eve ate of this tree, their spirit died within them. That is, their spirit was separated from God. That is the definition of spiritual death, so essentially, a "murder" was committed that day. That is why they hid from God when He appeared to them in the Garden. They knew that they had disobeyed God and now felt separated from Him.

All of their children (and everyone since) is born with a dead spirit, to oversimplify our reality. In other words, a spirit that is separated from God. (We could debate the innocence of children, but that is another thread.) This spirit will still exist forever, it is just now separated from God. So, in reality, their sin was mass murder, and their punishment was separation from God, illustrated through the eviction from Eden. Cain was given the same punishment when he committed physical murder, i.e., being sentenced to separation -- eviction of a sort -- from man. Essentially, God sent Cain to prison.

Adam and Eve killed their own spirits. That is, when they gained the knowledge of evil, they separated their spirit from the Spirit of God. God cannot remain in the presence of evil. And since we can only reproduce others exactly like us, all of their descendants were created with a spirit that was separated from God.

 

[Webers_Home]

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That's very convoluted reasoning

Is it impossible that your own reasoning is the reasoning that's convoluted instead of mine? Do you sincerely believe yourself infallible and speaking for God ex cathedra?

You really ought to exercise a little more cautioun with your choice of words lest the hapless day arrives when you are forced to eat them.

Buen Camino
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[JCitoL]

when murder is legal?

the murder as a general rule is not legal, because it is a work of satan

John 8:44 "the devil... was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth(i.e. in the good), because there is no truth(i.e. because there is no good) in him. When he speaketh a lie(i.e. an unrighteousness), he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar(i.e. for it is unrighteous), and the father of it(i.e. and the primary causer of all evil).",

1 John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

Blessings

 

[Webers_Home]

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1 John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

I'm going to revise that statement ever so slightly to bring out an important point. Watch for the change.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life in him."

I omitted the word "abiding" in order to draw attention to it because there is a big difference between possessing eternal life and abiding in it.

This is a complicated subject; very complicated indeed. It deals with some difficult statements in the 8th chapter of Romans that by all rights belong in a Sunday school class rather than on an internet forum so I'm not going to develop it here.

Buen Camino
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[thisnumbersdisconnected]

TND, what do you mean when you say we are fruit inspectors? Are you saying were supposed to judge each other?

No, not in the sense I perceive "judge" to mean. When we see the behavior of Christian friends or family and know it not to be in alignment with biblical concepts, that is when we have an opportunity, if the behavior persists, to address it one on one. Obviously, all of us are going to fall off the path, if you will, on occasion, particularly in times of stress or concern. What I'm talking about is ongoing behaviors, such as knowledge your friend is into porn online, or your wife seems to be drinking a bit too much consistently. Then you say something, always with the church discipline guidelines of Matthew 18:15-17 in mind. Most such situations will never get to the second level of that passage.

If you are saying we are to judge others by their works what about all those works others do in secret or discretely?

That would be a bit hard to deal with, wouldn't it? Those don't come to light until they spill out into the world through the unintended consequences that are always in tandem with our secret sins.

We are told all through the NT that when we do good works NOT to do them for others to see or to do them in a closet.

And those are not what I was talking about, as you can see from my response. :D

 

[JCitoL]

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I'm going to revise that statement ever so slightly to bring out an important point. Watch for the change.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life in him."

I omitted the word "abiding" in order to draw attention to it because there is a big difference between possessing eternal life and abiding in it.

This is a complicated subject; very complicated indeed. It deals with some difficult statements in the 8th chapter of Romans that by all rights belong in a Sunday school class rather than on an internet forum so I'm not going to develop it here.

Buen Camino
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however the murder is not a good thing after all

Blessings

 

[n2thelight]

Murder is never legal in God's law,however killing can be......

 

[YosefHayim]

Forgive me if I'm not following the thread correctly, but what it seems you're saying is that Christians have some sort of advantage of justifying their murder?

Thou shalt not kill. Exodus 20:13 KJV

As you said this doesn't mean overall killing. Most translations say "murder". This one is usually pulled from the KJV by skeptics to claim a contradiction.

(רָצַח) ratsach
1) to murder, slay, kill

a) (Qal) to murder, slay

1) premeditated
2) accidental
3) as avenger
4) slayer (intentional) (participle)


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Exodus 22:2-3 says

2 If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
3 If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

This says here that if a thief breaks into someone's house, the owner is not guilty of bloodshed if they were to kill them for self defense. However, if the owner were to go out and pursue after the thief after some time after the incident that the owner would be, indeed, guilty of bloodshed.

God is the true judge.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:21 KJV


What is the intention of their heart?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 KJV