Where Christians Can Agree on Prophecy

[Orates]

It is a shame that Christians cannot put up a united front to the unbelieving world on the basic prophecies of the Bible.

This post will sum up some basic beliefs for literalists trying to witness to unbelievers using prophecy. And then give the wait and see signs that are being debated. Please add any comments on items you think should be changed- if you are interpreting the prophecies literally!

1> Jesus is Coming Back to Earth- someday, maybe soon, but no one knows the hour or the day.
Wait and See- Anyone alive on earth at this event cannot miss it. Jesus will be coming on the clouds of heaven like lightning with His Saints riding white horses.

2> There will be a 7 year period between the signing of a final 7 year interim peace treaty and Jesus' return.
Wait and See- After the treaty is signed there will either be a 7 year period of tribulation on earth or 3 1/2 years of peace and then 3 1/2 years of tribulation.

3> Believers will be Raptured/Resurrected at some point before Jesus returns.
Wait and See- Believers will either be Raptured before, in the middle, before the Wrath, or at the end of the the 7 years. Believers will also be Resurrected into Glorified bodies at the same time as the Rapture.

4> There will be a final 10 bodied ruling power in the world before Jesus returns.
Wait and See- It might be 10 nations of a Revived Roman Empire, the UN, a G10, the club of Rome, or an Arab Confederation. When we see it control world affairs in the end times, we will know exactly what it is.

5> The Antichrist will come on the world scene before Jesus returns.
Wait and See- He may confirm a treaty with Israel, but he will take over a rebuilt Jewish Temple, declare himself god, and require the world to worship himself. He may or may not receive a head wound and revive.

6> The Antichrist will take over a Jewish Sanctuary and stop sacrifices that have been going on there secretly.
Wait and See- The Sanctuary may be a rebuilt Temple on or near the existing Temple Mount, an underground excavation of the original site of the Holy of Holies, or some other building or location.

7> The Antichrist will require the world to take a mark containing the number 666 on the right hand or forehead to be able to buy and sell in a new world economic order.
Wait and See- The mark could be an implanted computer chip, an visible or invisible tatoo, or some other new technology. We will know it when we see it and we will not be forced or tricked into taking it. Christians alive during this time will be persecuted for not accepting it. Some may fall away during this trial and accept the mark to avoid persecution.

8> The Battle of Armageddon will start before Jesus returns. Israel will be invaded and many Jews wiped out in Jacob's trouble.
Wait and See- The invasion from the North may be the Russians and Arab allies or some other force, but an Oriental army of 200 million will march across Asia to the Euphrates River, which will be dried up to prepare the way to the Valley of Megiddo for the last battle for planet earth.

9> Jesus will return with His Saints and destroy the forces gathered at Megiddo. Satan will be bound and He will set up His 1000 year Kingdom on a renewed Earth.
Wait and See- The Saints will live and reign with Christ for 1000 years. There will be Jewish and Gentile mortals in the Kingdom and Jesus will rule them with an iron rod.

10> After the 1000 years, Satan will be released and lead a rebellion against the camp of the Saints in Jerusalem. They will be destroyed by fire out of heaven before reaching them.
Wait and See- The rebellion after the Millennium will be either mortals from the Millennium or a 2nd Resurrection of all the lost of all ages.

11> The lost will stand before the Great White Judgment Seat of Christ and they will be judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Wait and See- They will either spend eternity suffering in flames or be destroyed both body and soul forever.

12> The earth and Heavens will be renewed and the Saints will live forever with God in New Jerusalem.
Wait and See- I can hardly wait-

Amen!

Orates 2006

 

[Vic C.]

Nice summary.

1 Thessalonians 1

... 10 and to await His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath. (litv)


ooh, ooh, notice it doesn't say, "the One dilevering us from the coming Tribulation". :wink:

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Nice summary.

1 Thessalonians 1

... 10 and to await His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath. (litv)


ooh, ooh, notice it doesn't say, "the One delivering us from the coming Tribulation". :wink:

Dear vic,

I noticed. :

 

[lecoop]

Nice summary.

1 Thessalonians 1

... 10 and to await His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath. (litv)


ooh, ooh, notice it doesn't say, "the One dilevering us from the coming Tribulation". :wink:

Pre-wrath IS pre-"trib" when you get the timing of the 70th week correct: 7th seal to the 7th vial.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Nice summary.

1 Thessalonians 1

... 10 and to await His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath. (litv)


ooh, ooh, notice it doesn't say, "the One dilevering us from the coming Tribulation". :wink:

Pre-wrath IS pre-"trib" when you get the timing of the 70th week correct: 7th seal to the 7th vial.

Coop

My timing is correct if you consider two things:

The Great Tribulation and The Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) are two seperate events. Jesus and Joel say so.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:/

/Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Cosmic events end the GT and kick off the Day of the Lord.


Second thing:

The GT begins midpoint of the "week" and continues until the Lord cuts short the days of the GT, then the Wrath of God begins. (the trumpets)

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets....

...Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


Looks like Wrath to me.


8-)

 

[lecoop]

Nice summary.

1 Thessalonians 1

... 10 and to await His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath. (litv)


ooh, ooh, notice it doesn't say, "the One dilevering us from the coming Tribulation". :wink:

Pre-wrath IS pre-"trib" when you get the timing of the 70th week correct: 7th seal to the 7th vial.

Coop

My timing is correct if you consider two things:

The Great Tribulation and The Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) are two separate events. Jesus and Joel say so.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:/

/Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Cosmic events end the GT and kick off the Day of the Lord.


Second thing:

The GT begins midpoint of the "week" and continues until the Lord cuts short the days of the GT, then the Wrath of God begins. (the trumpets)

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets....

...Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


Looks like Wrath to me.

8-)

It looks on the surface like you are correct, and that is why Rosenthal and Van Kampen wrote their books. However, all of you have missed it. Yes, Jesus did say that "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened." However, Jesus is mentioning the second time these signs are seen: a second event that John does not cover in Revelation. If he did, it would be in Chapter 19, just before Jesus returns. Both scriptures are true. Joel's prophecy is fulfilled with the sixth seal, and the sign Jesus mentioned will surely take place after the tribulation and just before His return.

You said

"The Great Tribulation and The Day of the Lord (the Wrath of God) are two separate events."

Yes they are, but they start at the same time, and run concurrent. But when the 70th week ends, the day of the Lord continues on through the battle of Armageddon. This keeps with the flow of Revelation as John wrote it. Unfortunately, Van Kampen and Rosenthal chopped up Johns chronology something terrible, and it was all unnecessary. John's book is the most complete on end time events, and is the latest revelation, and it would be wise to go there first to establish doctrine and beliefs, and then fill in from the Olivet discourse and the minor prophets. These men started with the Olivet discourse, and then tried to rearrange Revelation to fit the Olivet discourse. If we examine the two scriptures, we see that there is a difference between the moon turning to blood, and the moon disappearing because it is reflecting no light: and no wonder, for the sun is darkened. And Jesus said this will take place just before He returns. And this return He is speaking about is where every eye shall see him! Where in Revelation will this coming take place? In Chapter 19. Therefore, the sign of the Prophet Joel, which will take place at the 6th seal, will be approximately 7 years before the sign that Jesus speaks of. They cannot be speaking of the same sign, taking place at the same time.

You said

"Cosmic events end the GT and kick off the Day of the Lord.."

John disagrees with you. He says that these cosmic signs start the day of the Lord, and the 70th week. For further proof of this, find the midpoint of the week. You will find it somewhere in John's "midpoint intermission" around chapters 10 to 14. Once you find the midpoint, it is easy to see that the trumpets are in the first half of the week, and the vials in the second half.

YOu said:

"The GT begins midpoint of the "week" and continues until the Lord cuts short the days of the GT, then the Wrath of God begins. (the trumpets)"

I think what you are meaning is that time where tribulation will reach its worst point ever, which will be after the abomination event that will take place very near the midpoint of the 70th week. Here you have to start twisting the natural flow of the book as John wrote it, and it is all unnecessary. God's wrath is seen by those experiencing the great earthquake that shakes the entire world, and that is at the sixth seal, and before the 70th week or the day of the Lord even begins! God's wrath is being poured out through the trumpets, which are sounded during the first 3 1/2 years, and increasing through the vials which are poured out during the second 3 1/2 years. Yes, Jesus did say that God would "shorten those days." What did he mean? If you study the vials, you will see that each vial is designed to bring any army to a stand still! No soldier can fight with boils over his body! And no naval battles can take place in a sea of blood! And no battles can be fought in total darkness. The 3 1/2 years are etched in stone, so to speak, and will not change, and the beast has been given authority for the full 42 months. However, he and his armies will be brought to a stand still by the vials. His time of effective warfare against the saints will be shortened and brought to a complete stand still.

John wrote his book in a chronological manner, as seen by the passing of time during the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials. Any theory that must re-arrange John's chronology is immediately suspect. Rosenthal and Van Kampen both fail here. They have had to mix up John's chronology to fit their theory in.

My statement still stands: pre-wrath IS pre-trib, when you understand when the "tribulation" (70th week) actually starts.

As I read it.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

I understand where you are coming from and of course I see things differently. With God's Wrath going on, Satan will be hard pressed to get in ANY Tribulation whatsoever. He is no match for God's power.

You seem to put the fifth seal (and the ones previous) before the final week. You say the Tribulation and God's Wrath are concurrent. I disagree. How do you account for:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These slain ones are surely from the GT.

We have John telling us the Wrath begins here:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We have John telling us the "great multitude" is from the GT after we see the Wrath is come:

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

To make this claim, the GT must be over. It doesn't last seven years and nowhere in Scripture will you find proof that it does.

You call Rev 10-14 an intermission. It isn't. John does take a break. but he backpedals and give us new revelation about events he's already written about. This isn't theory. This is careful observation of events and putting them in their proper place. There are gaps and rehashing of time periods all throughout the Bible and it's prophecies.

For instance:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the beginning of the GT and he first told us about it in Rev 6:10. John backpedaled his story to midweek.

There is no intermission between the trumpets and bowls. It just seems that way because many people don't see what John has done with this backpedal.

John disagrees with you. He says that these cosmic signs start the day of the Lord, and the 70th week.

John never mentions a 70th. week. This is speculation. 8-)

If I may ask a question, where do you see this part of the verse in relation to the last week?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

I think what you are meaning is that time where tribulation will reach its worst point ever, which will be after the abomination event that will take place very near the midpoint of the 70th week.

No, I said exactly what I meant. You are missing one very importatnt point:

There is no Tribulation going on at all when the week starts.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How can there be any Persecution of believers at the beginning of the week, when it is supposed to be a time of peace? We aren't to know the identity of Antichrist until the GT begins. You have us being persecuted at the beginning of the week. It wouldn't take long to see who or what was behind the mass execution of believers. The persecutions don't begin until the Mark and the refusal of the Mark.

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This happens at about midweek.

ohn wrote his book in a chronological manner, as seen by the passing of time during the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials. Any theory that must re-arrange John's chronology is immediately suspect. Rosenthal and Van Kampen both fail here. They have had to mix up John's chronology to fit their theory in.

I agree. I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive and run right into one another. The trumpets begin right after the seals; the bowls begin right after the trumpets. No "intermission" unless you want to call the 1/2 hour in Revelation 8:1 an intermission. As long as I adhere to that belief, I am not rearranging John's timeline at all.

This is how scripture was revealed to me.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. One way or another, the Truth of it all WILL be revealed to us. :angel:

 

[lecoop]

I understand where you are coming from and of course I see things differently. With God's Wrath going on, Satan will be hard pressed to get in ANY Tribulation whatsoever. He is no match for God's power.

You seem to put the fifth seal (and the ones previous) before the final week. You say the Tribulation and God's Wrath are concurrent. I disagree. How do you account for:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These slain ones are surely from the GT.

Why would you say that? There is no language here to give that impression. On the other hand, martyrdom started in the book of Acts, way back almost 2000 years ago. Stephen was slain for the word of God, and for his testimony. And from then on, millions.

We have John telling us the Wrath begins here:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I agree. I am convinced that His wrath is in an earthquake that shakes the entire planet. But if not in the earthquake, then to start in the trumpets.


We have John telling us the "great multitude" is from the GT after we see the Wrath is come:

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

To make this claim, the GT must be over. It doesn't last seven years and nowhere in Scripture will you find proof that it does.

I agree with you about the "after." However, I personally believe the rapture will be at the moment of the great earthquake, which would eliminate this problem of "after." Yes, John sees them in heaven, but does not see when they arrived. I believe they arrived at the moment of the earthquake. However, this is a guess, as God does not tell us. You are thinking that "great tribulation" must be associated with the 70th week. This is just not so. Anywhere that people die for their testimony, it is great tribulation. Jesus promised one of the churches that He would cast them into great tribulation. That church has long since disappeared. John said in chapter one that he was in "tribulation" and we are in tribulation now. In Sudan and other places, they are in great tribulation. Jesus separated the time after the midpoint by saying that it was greater than any tribulation before or after. I believe Rosenthal or Van Kampen were right in saying that this great crowd is the church of Jesus Christ. However, the 70th week has not started yet, when John sees this great crowd. That makes the rapture prewrath and pretrib, just as John makes it.

You call Rev 10-14 an intermission. It isn't. John does take a break. but he backpedals and give us new revelation about events he's already written about. This isn't theory. This is careful observation of events and putting them in their proper place. There are gaps and rehashing of time periods all throughout the Bible and it's prophecies.

I just cannot agree on this. John puts things in the proper place, for the visions he is seeing are in the proper place, and John merely writes what he sees. And his chronology makes perfect sense the way it is written. There is no need to change it. Perhaps you can show some things that you believe cannot be chronological, and we can discuss them.

For instance:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the beginning of the GT and he first told us about it in Rev 6:10. John backpedaled his story to midweek.

You just think that he spoke of the GT back in Rev 6:10. It is quite likely that Stephen himself said this, about 2000 years ago! Actually, in chapter 13 John is introduced to the beast (in the midpoint intermission because he will be revealed at this time) and John is shown that the beast gets his power from the great dragon. (13:2) Now, if God left chapter 12 out of the vision, we would not understand how the dragon fits in here. God showed chapter 12 as the introduction to how the dragon is involved with end time events. Read chapter 12 again, and see how many times the dragon is mentioned, with all his other names and pronouns. Chapter 12 is our introduction to the dragon, and shows how he is cast out of the heavens just after the midpoint of the week. We see the 1260 days timeframe written twice in this chapter, proving that it is near the midpoint of the week.


There is no intermission between the trumpets and bowls. It just seems that way because many people don't see what John has done with this backpedal.

Again, if you insist this is backpedalling, then show how or why. What is he going over again? On the other hand, I can show you point after point of things that happen near the midpoint, that John must cover before the first vial is opened just after the abomination event.

John disagrees with you. He says that these cosmic signs start the day of the Lord, and the 70th week.

John never mentions a 70th. week. This is speculation. 8-)

Daniel does, and many events in Revelation are expansions of what Daniel saw. There is no doubt that most of Revelation is about this timeframe of the 70th week.

If I may ask a question, where do you see this part of the verse in relation to the last week?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

This verse in Dan. 12:1 points to the midpoint of the week, right after the abomination of desolation that takes place in the midst or middle of the week, and then to the next 3 1/2 years.

[quote:685bf]I think what you are meaning is that time where tribulation will reach its worst point ever, which will be after the abomination event that will take place very near the midpoint of the 70th week.

No, I said exactly what I meant. You are missing one very importatnt point:

There is no Tribulation going on at all when the week starts.

Again, there is tribulation going on right now, and it will continue until Jesus returns. Satan hates the gospel, and where-ever and when-ever the gospel is preached, there will be tribulation. However, perhaps you are referring to the short time of peace in Israel promised by the 7 year covenant. This does not at all speak of what will be happening elsewhere in the world. It is harvest time in God's eyes, and people will be preaching the gospel all around the globe, IMO. I will agree that immediately after the peace treaty is signed, there will be a short time of peace in Israel. However, Daniel chapter 11 gives us hints that the beast will NOT be at peace with other countries. His treaty is with Israel, not the world.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How can there be any Persecution of believers at the beginning of the week, when it is supposed to be a time of peace? We aren't to know the identity of Antichrist until the GT begins. You have us being persecuted at the beginning of the week. It wouldn't take long to see who or what was behind the mass execution of believers. The persecutions don't begin until the Mark and the refusal of the Mark.

This peace is for Israel, not the world! The 7 year treaty is for Israel, not the world, and definitely not the church. Tribulation will be on the increase until the rapture. At the time of the rapture, there will be people dying for their testimony many places in the world, and not just the few as we have today, IMO. People dying for their testimony today is the work of evil spirits. Then it will be the work of the dragon, working through the beast. Have you read any reports of the persecution in China lately? As the rapture nears, Christians will be going all out to bring in the harvest, as the HS leads, and at the same time, Satan will be going all out to stop us. Of course he loses! : -)))

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This happens at about midweek.

I agree. (Finally! : -))) ) And notice that it is in chapter 13, during what I call the midpoint intermission.

ohn wrote his book in a chronological manner, as seen by the passing of time during the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials. Any theory that must re-arrange John's chronology is immediately suspect. Rosenthal and Van Kampen both fail here. They have had to mix up John's chronology to fit their theory in.

I agree. I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls are consecutive and run right into one another. The trumpets begin right after the seals; the bowls begin right after the trumpets. No "intermission" unless you want to call the 1/2 hour in Revelation 8:1 an intermission. As long as I adhere to that belief, I am not rearranging John's timeline at all.

Good! You are far ahead of many I read. We really are not that far off, except were we start the 70th week and the day of the Lord. But we have just started or discussions. After a while, you will see things the way I see them! : -)) Why does John break off his writing of the seals, after the 6th seal? Why not show the sealing after the 7th seal? the reason is simple: JOhn was shown the exact order of events as they will happen, and he wrote it just as he saw it. God could not show the 7th seal (which starts the 70th week and the day of the Lord, before the sealing of the 144,000! The sealing is for their protection, and this must be accomplished before the week is opened. Then John is shown the church in heaven. This goes along with many scriptures, showing that God will remove the gentile church before HE starts the final week, which is aimed straight at Israel.

This is how scripture was revealed to me.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. One way or another, the Truth of it all WILL be revealed to us. :angel:[/quote:685bf]

And thank you for responding. I hope we can get right down to the nitty gritty as they say, and see exactly what John wrote. I would like to discuss the horses, and their timing, the vision of the throne room, to start.
Coop

 

[Vic C.]

And thank you for responding. I hope we can get right down to the nitty gritty as they say, and see exactly what John wrote. I would like to discuss the horses, and their timing, the vision of the throne room, to start.

Bring it on. I am thinking about what you've been saying, so don't think any of it is posted in vain. I'm sure others are reading our posts as well.

 

[lecoop]

And thank you for responding. I hope we can get right down to the nitty gritty as they say, and see exactly what John wrote. I would like to discuss the horses, and their timing, the vision of the throne room, to start.

Bring it on. I am thinking about what you've been saying, so don't think any of it is posted in vain. I'm sure others are reading our posts as well.

I asked some questions in the thread: What Secret Rapture. Let's go to that thread, and continue there, at least to discuss the horsemen. I will await your answers to the question "when" of the vision in the throne room.

Coop

 

[Quasar]

About the Day of the Lord

Hi guys,

Consider the following:

To illustrate the facts pertaining to the Day of the Lord, the first place to look is in Dan.9:27, where God has conveyed a 490 year prophecy in terms of a 70 'week' period of time.

The text in Dan.9:27 reveals it to be the 70th and final 'week' of the prophecy, meaning a 7 year period of time, first referred to in Jer.30:7 as 'Jacob's Trouble,' or what we call, the tribulation.

Note, first of all, the 'he,' who 'confirms a covenant with many,' in 9:27 - is the same person described by the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:3 and 8, as the man of sin/lawlessness/wicked one - or, the antichrist.

Second, is the fact that 'he,' whom we have established as the antichrist from the above, kicks off God's timetable that is the beginning of the 7 year tribulation, or Jacob's Trouble, or the Day of the Lord.

Third, it is at this point in time the Day of the Lord begins, from the text of Paul's 2nd epistle to the Thessalonicans, who were very concerned that Jesus had already come to rapture His Church, that Paul had taught them about in his 1st epistle, of which they were a part of, and they had been left behind to go through the tribulation.

Someone had sent them a letter over Paul's forged signature that the Day of the Lord had already come. Meaning, the tribulation, or the 70th and final 'week' of Daniel's prophecy had begun and they had not been raptured with the rest of the Church.

Fourth, so Paul's statement to them was, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS ALREADY COME." 2 Thes.2:1-2.

Therefore, according to the Scriptures, the Day of the Lord encompasses the entire 7 years of the tribulation.

In verse 3, Paul continues, "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the departure [The rapture of the Church] and the man of lawlessness [The antichrist] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

According to the Scriptures, it appears the 3.5 year period leading up to the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will bring in a period of unprecidented temporary peace, before the antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, and the most horrible conditions the world has ever known will take place. Mt.24:21 and 1 Thes.5:3.

As Jesus said in Mt.24:6-8, there will be wars, rumors of wars, nation rising against nation, famines, earthquakes in various places, all of which are the beginnings of birth pangs, but the end is still to come. Therefore, it would seem, the six seals consisting of the four horsemen of the apocalypse is a parenthetic of the entire tribulation, which would begin at the seventh seal which contains the seven trumpet plagues.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Quasar]

The Rapture and End Times Chronology -

Hi friends -

The prophetic chronological timing of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as Jacob's Trouble.

2. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 'weeks' of years He has decreed upon the entire history of Israel, the length of time involved in the tribulation is revealed, along with the person who will set it off. The antichrist, who will establish a seven year covenant with them. Dan.9:27.

3. Jesus confirmation of Daniel's 70th and final 'week,' consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in His ministry to the 'lost sheep of Israel. Mt.24:15.

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was established on May 14, 1948.

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ will be raptured, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. Jn.14:2-4, 28, 1 Thes.4:14-18, Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ through those who are still alive at His return for His Church.

6. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceding the revealing of the antichrist, which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation. 2 Thes.2:3-8, in perfect harmony with Dan.9:27.

7. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is in heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, while the tribulation is taking place and is not heard about again until the wedding with the Lamb [Jesus Christ] takes place with His Church in heaven. Rev.19:7-8.

8. Jesus returns from heaven - with His Church following Him on white horses, and dressed in fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints, white and clean - in His Second Coming to the earth. Zech.14:4-5, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

9. Jesus ends the war of Armageddon, saves the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah [Zech.12:1 , and 'all Israel will be saved' [Rom.11:26]. The antichrist and false prophet along with their armies are defeated and the two of them are thrown into the lake of fire, and their armies are all killed by the sword. Rev.19:20-21.

10. Satan is caught and thrown into the Abyss for the 1,000 years that Jesus will reign, in His kingdom here on the earth. Rev.20:1-3.

11. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those who were martyred during the tribulation. They were not believers in Jesus Christ at the time the tribulation began. Therefore, they do not belong to the Christian Church that was raptured previously. They will be priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years. Rev.20:4-6.

12. The Millennial Kingdom of Christ will consist of all those who survived the tribulation, besides the resurrected martyrs, and all the remnant of Israel. In numbers alone, from an estimated original 7 billion people, there will only be 2.3 billion remaining. Life expectancy will be greatly increased. Isa.65:20 and 11:6-9.

13. Satan will be released from the Abyss to once again go out to deceive the nations and people as the 1,000 year Kingdom reign of Christ on the earth ends. He will gather millions of people who come against God's people at Jerusalem. But God sends fire from heaven, as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah, destroying them and throwing Satan into the lake of fire. Rev.20:10.

14. The second resurrection takes place that consists of all the Godless and wicked and the great white throne is set up to judge them, right here on earth. The sea, death and Hades all give up their dead and will then be thrown into the lake of fire. Meaning, that all who were in the 'temporal holding tanks' of Sheol, Hades and Hell will be removed to face judgement, and along with death, disposed of forever. For all those who participate in the second resurrection, if their name is not found in the book of life, they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Rev.20:11-15.

15. The old heaven and earth passes away and God creates an all new heaven and earth, and the new eternal city of Jerusalem descends from heaven. Rev.21:1.

The rest of chapter 21 alludes to a description of the coming eternal city and life of all believers who will be with the Lord forever.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Hi friends -

The prophetic chronological timing of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

Note to Forum... Bible makes no definite outline whatsoever concerning any real chronological timing of the End Times and rapture. Pre Tribulation presupposes a whole handful of conjecture and speculation. As a matter of fact, not one single End Times position is 100% Biblically correct. Each has it's merits and problems. Please choose one not because it is the most popular or it fits your line of thinking or the Man on TV says so. Study the scriptures carefully and ask a LOT of questions.

Just look at the many views we have here and ask yourself, are any of them correct? Can more than one possibly be correct? Are ALL wrong?

This is my opinion and not that of the Site as a whole.

Vic

 

[lecoop]

Nice summary.

1 Thessalonians 1

... 10 and to await His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, the One delivering us from the coming wrath. (litv)


ooh, ooh, notice it doesn't say, "the One dilevering us from the coming Tribulation". :wink:

;-) We are in "the tribulation."

Young's Literal Translation
1:9 I, John, who also am your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, and in the reign and endurance, of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, because of the word of God, and because of the testimony of Jesus Christ;

I wish people would start using "70th week" instead of saying, "the tribulation."

What about His "wrath?" Some people will try to flee from it or hide from it:

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Revelation 6:16
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

God's wrath will be poured out on some:

Luke 21:23
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


Some will be saved from His wrath:

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I chose to be in the last group: these saved from His wrath.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

We are in "the tribulation."

I too believe that. 8-)

I wish people would start using "70th week" instead of saying, "the tribulation."

I will use the phrase, Wrath of God to come. ;-)

 

[tim-from-pa]

Orates:

I agree with all your points, but being a person with a British-Israel slant, I want to modify step 8:

8A> The Battle of Armageddon will start before Jesus returns. The nations of Israel will be invaded, and that includes those left in America, Australia and NW Europe (and wherever else they colonized) and many Israelites and Jews will be wiped out in Jacob's trouble. But Jacob will be saved out of it as the Lord gathers His elect from the four corners of the Earth and brings all the tribes back into the land of Israel (and the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 are rejoined).

Wait and see--- etc.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

Ok, heres my 2 cents.

3> Believers will be Raptured/Resurrected at some point before Jesus returns. Wait and See- Believers will either be Raptured before, in the middle, before the Wrath, or at the end of the the 7 years. Believers will also be Resurrected into Glorified bodies at the same time as the Rapture.

I Don't believe in the Rapture. This is a hoax or a misnomer. Or It's applied to some other event that they claim is a rapture.

6> The Antichrist will take over a Jewish Sanctuary and stop sacrifices that have been going on there secretly. Wait and See- The Sanctuary may be a rebuilt Temple on or near the existing Temple Mount, an underground excavation of the original site of the Holy of Holies, or some other building or location.

Secret sacrifices? Where'd you get that? I'm sure they won't be done in secret and the Bible doesn't mention anything secret in connection with the sacrifices! Especially, if the Anti-christ is suppose to enter into it and defile it, so that everyone knows its defiled?!?

7> The Antichrist will require the world to take a mark containing the number 666 on the right hand or forehead to be able to buy and sell in a new world economic order. Wait and See- The mark could be an implanted computer chip, an visible or invisible tatoo, or some other new technology. We will know it when we see it and we will not be forced or tricked into taking it. Christians alive during this time will be persecuted for not accepting it. Some may fall away during this trial and accept the mark to avoid persecution.

This I'm not to sure is a physical mark, though Satan would love to make it so. I believe they mark is the mark in a belief of TESTIMONY against what Satan would be doing at that time.

8 & 9> I don't totally believe everything said here. This takes in to many factors to discuss in any detail.

 

[lecoop]

I will use the phrase, Wrath of God to come. ;-)

That will work!

Coop

 

[tim-from-pa]

Oops! I missed the "secretly" part in #6. :o I read about the sacrifices stopping (aka the abomination of desolation to which there were past prototypes already) and I agree with that. No, I do not believe they will be done secretly.

I do believe in the "rapture" or otherwise changed in a twinkling of the eye. As to when that happens I agree that Christians have been at odds over the years about that, although I believe its pre-Trib--- I don't really make that one a bone of contention though. I often joke I think I'm one of the only British-Israel types that believe in a pre-Trib rapture. Actually, I know of one other preacher that once did out in Calif. (He died back in 2005)---- He used to say that if Christians wanted to go thru the Tribulation, then they can and thought anyone was nuts to think they could survive it. I thought that was a little brash to pronounce that on someone just because they did not believe in a pre-trib. They might be a little surprised to find they are not here, that's all.

I found logic problems regarding a post-Trib rapture where if that was the case, there would be no flesh-and-blood people left to inherit the Kingdom when Christ judged at His Second Coming. If I had to go for anything other than pre-Trib, I rather go for a mid-Trib or none at all, but for the latter, Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 bothers me. Those who did not die and are "changed" are clearly in the same type of glory as those who are raised based on the context (whenever we want to believe that happens). That is an incorruptible body.

 

[ÃÂoppleganger]

I'm just saying "the so-called rapture, isn't a rapture" its a change of state, that all happens here on earth. Every tongue shall confess and every knee will bow. That means good, bad, ugly and indifferent. God brings heaven to earth. Those people in there graves aren't waiting for the Lord to come back. All people are with the Lord for good or for bad. On one side of the gulf or the other. If there lucky, they will get a 2nd chance in the millenium.

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ