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Where did Paul get his doctrine on the last days?

R

rdclmn7

Guest
The only part of the new testament that was available at the time of Paul's writing was little more than Mark, which may have been written but not distributed throughout the church.
That leaves him with only the old testament as a source.
That left him with Nu 10 which regulated the use of the two ceremonial trumpets made of hammered silver.
The ceremonial use included;
- times of rejoicing
- appointed feasts
- new moon festivals
- over sacrificial offerings.

Of course, there is the matter of what did Paul use as a basis for his statement on the last trumpet.

This brings us to an important decision,
what do you accept as authoritive?
the scripture that regulates the use of trumpets?
the accumulated commentaries that demonstrate that in actual use, the did it another way?
Paul's use of precedent?
Paul's inspiration without scripture?

If you use scripture as a basis, you get biblical results.
Commentaries are not meant to have the same authority as scripture.
The use of precedent lets you find any given topic and see it develop throughout scripture.
Divine inspiration is subject to the verse in 1John 5;7, "there are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the holy Ghost, and these three are one.
The spirit cannot contradict the word.
The idea of being inspired without the word, isn't biblical.

The situation described by Paul in a local church demonstrated that when they would meet, there would be psalms, interpretations, doctrine, prophecy, etc...
The context is that of the sharing of the old testament, each activity described is compatible with this scenario.

So, you have the process of inspiration based on scripture described with texts, you also have a situation where it is happening on a regular basis.

In the old testament, the following people are vivid examples of the same process;

1. Isaiah, a courtier is concious of the economic might of Tyre and then sees into the future.

2. Daniel is part of the first exile, he is described as a child who learns Chaldean and other languages necessary for the running the empire he is now part of.
This is why the first and second part of the book are different in language and style.
Every move he made was known to his people, he would later learn hebrew and then be able to write about his new prophetic ministry, along with the perspective that reflects his age, and experience.

3. Jeremiah was at least 5 when Josiah brought about the reforms that resulted in the last revival.
He would also witness the falling away of this same generation before the fall of Jerusalem 30 years later. "this generation shall not pass..."

4. Ezekiel would see visions that he would recognize as levitical in origin, which would serve as the basis for his ministry.

The point to this is that each prophet had something that they would use as the basis for their ministries, be it dreams, visions, experiences and scripture.
It also applies to those that are familiar with the concept of ministerial annointing.
Its not the individual that is supported, its the word that he preaches and is subject to.
 
Well, rdclmn7, I would agree that during the early years of Paul's ministry, the only Scriptures were the Hebrew Scriptures, and I'm sure Paul knew them quite well, for he would go to the synagouges first, to argue from Scripture that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the Messiah as prophecied.

As for your alluding to the verse in 1 Cor. 15:51, "Behold, I shew you a mystery: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed," surely you can see this is a 'mystery' (a secret previously hidden but now revealed) revealed only to Paul.

" the last trump", to me, is merely the last sound of the blown trumpet, calling the dead in Christ (who are raised incorruptible), and changing those alive believers, when this happens, to put on immortality.

At any rate, trumpets were used for many occasions other then ceremonial. A number of examples are: call the Israelites to assemble, blown when Jericho was destroyed, call to battle, call of alarm, etc. Check out a concordance.

So, the trumpet sound that Paul writes about in this reference, has to do with the up-calling of the church/body of Christ. It doesn't tie in with any other trumpet.
 
Paul, being a Jew first, knew and used Jewish eschatology as his guideline for teaching "end times". The trumpet he refers to is one of the ceremonial trumpets. I've written about this many times; it's one of the trumps blown at Rosh HaShanah.
 
HI Vic. I disagree with you reasoning. While Paul was well versed in the Hebrew Scriptures, he was a specially called out individually, to whom the secrets of the church/body of Christ were revealed.

Paul was given special revelations and visions, hearing some things that he couldn't repeat (2 Cor.12:1-4); he was set apart before he was born for a special calling through God's grace (Gal. 1:15-17); a number of mysteries were revealed to Paul, which were only concerning the church/body of Christ; one such mystery is that, even though it is prophesied that Israel will be the head of the nations during the millennium, Paul writes that in the church/body both Jews and Gentiles will be one body, a new creation and our future is in the heavenlies witnessing to the manifold wisdom and grace of God.

So, we know that trumpets were sounded in the OT for many things: call to battle, danger, praise and worship, bringing down the walls of Jericho, etc.

Therefore, when a trumpet sounds from heaven and Christ catches away the church/body, IMO, this trumpet has nothing to do with all the ceremonial trumpet sounds.
 
HI Vic. I disagree with you reasoning. While Paul was well versed in the Hebrew Scriptures, he was a specially called out individually, to whom the secrets of the church/body of Christ were revealed....

... Therefore, when a trumpet sounds from heaven and Christ catches away the church/body, IMO, this trumpet has nothing to do with all the ceremonial trumpet sounds.
Hi Bick. It's okay if we disagree. I don't mind posting this as many times as needed. 8-)

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm
The Last Trump

"We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31)."

(Hebraic Heritage Ministries, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/)

(Lev 23:24 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

(Num 29:1 KJV) And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

According to Num 10:10, Israel was to blow a trumpet at the beginning of each month. Since the Mosaic festival year was seven months long, the seventh month (Tishri) was the last month for a festival trumpet. This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day." (Ernest L. Martin, The Star that Astonished the World, (c)1996, pg 95)

Martin further signifies this day by relying on the work of Theodor Gaster and his book titled "Festivals of the Jewish Year." It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump." (Martin, pg 96)

(1 Cor 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is quite possible that Paul, being Jewish himself and surely knowledgeable of the Jewish feasts and customs, was making a symbolic reference to this time of year -- the Day of Trumpets. "The 'Last Trump' of the early Jews was when the dead were remembered. And to Paul the 'Last Trump' was the time for Jesus' second advent and the resurrection of the dead." (Martin, pg 96)
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

Paul writes that in the church/body both Jews and Gentiles will be one body, a new creation and our future is in the heavenlies witnessing to the manifold wisdom and grace of God.

Paul takes it a step further:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
HI Vic: Those are some interesting historic facts, indeed, but, IMO, Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit concerning the "rapture" of the church/body of Christ, and "the last trump" was the last sound of the trumpet call stated in 1 Cor. 15:51ff.

Some of my thoughts:
Since the church/body of Christ is made up of a great majority of Gentiles (my opinion), I don't see the relation of traditional Jewish feast days and trumpets to it.
Sure, "trumpet sounds" meant many things in Jewish history, and have been up to world war 1, when they gave commands on the battle field.

Gaster stated that the early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. Notice, it was "Trumpets" plural. It evidently was Gaster's opinion that this was "the time that became a symbol of the last Trump," even though he quotes nothing from any ancient writing.

It would appear that "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year" was only a myth, for we know that the dead are dead until resurrected (Dan. 12:2; Psa. 6:5; 13:3; 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa 38:18; Eccl. 8:5-7; 9:10; etc.

To conclude: we know the fact that some of the church/body of Christ would be alive at the calling of the Lord from the air, and would be changed instantly. This is a secret Paul reveals, for elsewhere in the Bible death comes before resurrection.

Also, IMO, the catching up of the church/body to meet the Lord in the air, is not His second advent on the earth.
 
Bick said:
HI Vic: Those are some interesting historic facts, indeed, but, IMO, Paul was guided by the Holy Spirit concerning the "rapture" of the church/body of Christ, and "the last trump" was the last sound of the trumpet call stated in 1 Cor. 15:51ff.
It's ok, really. I understand this is what pretibulationists are taught; I just don't understand why.

Some of my thoughts:
Since the church/body of Christ is made up of a great majority of Gentiles (my opinion), I don't see the relation of traditional Jewish feast days and trumpets to it.
Sure, "trumpet sounds" meant many things in Jewish history, and have been up to world war 1, when they gave commands on the battle field.
Since eschatology is closely related to the Day of the Lord and the gathering of Israel... and the fact that Paul tells us in no uncertain terms that we are "grafted" into "Israel", I do see the relationship. I see it all as foreshadows of things to happen in the future.

Gaster stated that the early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. Notice, it was "Trumpets" plural. It evidently was Gaster's opinion that this was "the time that became a symbol of the last Trump," even though he quotes nothing from any ancient writing.
Bick, maybe there's more in the book than they cared to provided on the link I provided. I don't have Gastor's book, so I can't say for sure. You should take into account though that Rosh HaShanah was a two day event and more than one trumpet was blown. A more thorough examination of this festival might be very enlightening.

It would appear that "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year" was only a myth, for we know that the dead are dead until resurrected (Dan. 12:2; Psa. 6:5; 13:3; 30:9; 88:10-12; 115:17; Isa 38:18; Eccl. 8:5-7; 9:10; etc.
Why would you say it is a myth? What are these verses supposed to tell me? They tell me nothing of the dead being resurrected?

On the other hand, Paul does tell us this:

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

and

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Sounds to me like the dead will be raised and reunited with the living.

To conclude: we know the fact that some of the church/body of Christ would be alive at the calling of the Lord from the air, and would be changed instantly. This is a secret Paul reveals, for elsewhere in the Bible death comes before resurrection.
Everywhere in the Bible teaches us death comes before resurrection. No one can be resurrected unless they are dead. That's the definition of resurrection. No offense, but I'm surprised you even said that.

I think you may be confusing resurrection with translation. For those living, they will be translated from their current body to a glorified, incorruptible body; that's translation.

Also, IMO, the catching up of the church/body to meet the Lord in the air, is not His second advent on the earth.
You separate it by close to seven years or so. That's pretribulationism. I understand it differently. I understand the harpazo to be near or at the end of God's Wrath and view it all as part of the Parousia.

I just have confidence in pretribulation and a whole lot of dispensationalism. :smt102
 
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