Bible Study WHERE DO PENTECOSTAL 'TONGUES' ACTUALLY COME FROM?

[SputnikBoy]

My question is, well ...it's exactly the same as the thread title. For literally hundreds of years we hear nary a word about the phenomenon of 'tongue-speaking' Christians. Then, at a Christian revival event (Azuzza Street) at the turn of the last century, wallah! 'tongues' appeared from 'nowhere'.

Today this phenomenon has taken a firm hold on the Pentecostal Church and other charismatic movements. Why? Was this a prompt from the Holy Spirit or was it merely the nonsensical utterings of some highly emotional person caught up in some ecstatic experience that had a 'snowball' effect on similarly emotional people?

Is it a case of 'monkey see (or hear) monkey do? Or is there something actually 'spiritually genuine' about 'tongues'? Would those who are 'favored with tongues' by the Holy Spirit and are therefore supposedly 'Spirit-filled' not also show evidence of this 'infilling' in other areas of their lives? And, what of those who claim an infilling of the Holy Spirit but DON'T speak 'in tongues'?

Questions, questions but NEVER any solid evidence or ACTUAL REASONING for 'Pentecostal tongues'. This phenomenon doesn't appear to be an exact 'science'. No wonder it has so many sceptics.

 

[Atonement]

I've also been told that tongues could just mean different language. So if they spoke Hebrew the power of the Holy Spirit could have given them new tongues to preach His Word throughout the entire world using English, Spanish etc etc. It's only another side to look at tounges.

 

[cyberjosh]

I've also been told that tongues could just mean different language. So if they spoke Hebrew the power of the Holy Spirit could have given them new tongues to preach His Word throughout the entire world using English, Spanish etc etc. It's only another side to look at tounges.

That is very true. The Holy Spirit can inspire someone to speak in a real language (yet unknown to them) and it can be a testimony to someone in the church who has the ability to understand that language (of which it seem they would have the ability of the gift of "interpretation of tongues" -even if they were raised speaking it). This is the way the testimony of Christ was spread on Pentecost when every man heard the Gospel being preached in his own language.

Tongues is a legitimate gift as is prophecy or any other gift. They didn't just "expire". And if you read the Bible closely there are 4 or 5 different manifestations of tongues. The one that Pentecostal churches display the most is the public dispensation of tongues for "edification", though since almost none of these churches have someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues the edification of the Church is non-existant. They are speaking to the air and it profits no one except the one speaking in it. This can be an abuse of tongues.

"6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. " (1 Corinthians 14:6-14)

The building up of the Church is called edification and Paul is saying here that if not used appropriately tongues won't do anyone any good. You have to read the rest of the chapter to get his whole teaching on it, but if you just have a wild Tongues jaberee party at church you aren't profiting the Church (the body of believers) at all. And worst case scenario you might scare some of God's people off.

Paul also said to excercise restraint with Prophecy if more than one person had a word to speak, so the same should be done with other gifts too. Tongues have their place in the Church but they should be carefully dispensed when used in front of the Church because it is supposed to be used for edification in that circumstance.

P.S. There are other manifestations of tongues which are personal uses (non-edification of the body) when praying or alone, but to expand on such a teaching could easily fill up a book (and has).

 

[Georges]

an interesting note....

The first Pentecost (Shavout) after the resurrection is a mirror image to the very first Pentecost (Shavout) that occured at Sinai....Ex 19.

According to Jewish tradition....

The word of God was pronounced on Mount Sinai in seventy languages (Shab. 88a; Ex. R. v.; comp. Acts ii. 5). The Torah was written in seventy languages in order that the nations should not be able to plead ignorance as their excuse for rejecting it (Tosef., Soṭah, viii.). Among the seventy languages the most noble is Hebrew, for in it was pronounced the creative word of God (Gen. R. xviii., xxxi.; Yalḳ., Gen. 52).

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... =languages

...A description is also given of how, during the revelation on Mt. Sinai, the voice of God was heard by all the nations, and how they became frightened and went to Balaam, who explained to them the import of the noise (§ 116a).

just thought folks would find it interesting...

 

[Poke]

was it merely the nonsensical utterings of some highly emotional person caught up in some ecstatic experience that had a 'snowball' effect on similarly emotional people?

Yep. The vast majority of the time, it doesn't even sound like it has the structure of a language.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I've also been told that tongues could just mean different language. So if they spoke Hebrew the power of the Holy Spirit could have given them new tongues to preach His Word throughout the entire world using English, Spanish etc etc. It's only another side to look at tounges.

That is very true. The Holy Spirit can inspire someone to speak in a real language (yet unknown to them) and it can be a testimony to someone in the church who has the ability to understand that language (of which it seem they would have the ability of the gift of "interpretation of tongues" -even if they were raised speaking it). This is the way the testimony of Christ was spread on Pentecost when every man heard the Gospel being preached in his own language.

Agreed.

Tongues is a legitimate gift as is prophecy or any other gift. They didn't just "expire".

I believe they did expire. And, the MAIN reason for my believing that they did expire is because there is no evidence today - NONE! - that anyone has the ability to spread the Gospel in a 'supernatural induced' language. Feel free to offer me substantiated examples of this and I might reconsider that belief. The gift of tongues were given for a specific period of time (to preach the Gospel to all nations, oftentimes foreigners that were present within the same city) and they were also a sign for non-believers (namely Jews). They (tongues) are not applicable for today at all.

And if you read the Bible closely there are 4 or 5 different manifestations of tongues.

Not in my Bible does it say that. In EVERY scriptural case of 'tongue-speaking' the Greek word 'glossa' is used. It simply means 'language' and a language of earthly origin. Pentecostals came up with their own word for 'tongues' in order to make THEIR practice of 'tongue-speaking' seem 'official'. This word is 'glossalalia'. Is it even Greek?

The one that Pentecostal churches display the most is the public dispensation of tongues for "edification", though since almost none of these churches have someone with the gift of interpretation of tongues the edification of the Church is non-existant. They are speaking to the air and it profits no one except the one speaking in it. This can be an abuse of tongues.

I believe that Pentecostal 'tongues' are ALWAYS fake, but, in theory, I agree.

"6Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and he is a foreigner to me. 12So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. " (1 Corinthians 14:6-14)

Well, the above text couldn't be much clearer in regard to 'tongues' being none other than the many kinds of languages of the world, could it? Nothing here about so-called 'angel speak'.

The building up of the Church is called edification and Paul is saying here that if not used appropriately tongues won't do anyone any good. You have to read the rest of the chapter to get his whole teaching on it, but if you just have a wild Tongues jaberee party at church you aren't profiting the Church (the body of believers) at all. And worst case scenario you might scare some of God's people off.

Now, if the Holy Spirit saw fit to entrust anyone with the gift of tongues, why would these people be having a 'Tongues Jamboree' to begin with? SURELY the Holy Spirit doesn't give away 'tongues' willy-nilly to every Tom, Dick and Harry ...? No. The Holy Spirit would entrust ANY gift with those who were 1. responsible, and 2. had knowledge and understanding of the scriptures with which to appropriately exercise the gift.

Paul also said to excercise restraint with Prophecy if more than one person had a word to speak, so the same should be done with other gifts too. Tongues have their place in the Church but they should be carefully dispensed when used in front of the Church because it is supposed to be used for edification in that circumstance.

Again, anyone not using the gift in a responsible manner would hardly have been a candidate for 'the gift' initially. Surely the Holy Spirit is capable of discerning who is and who is not responsible.

P.S. There are other manifestations of tongues which are personal uses (non-edification of the body) when praying or alone, but to expand on such a teaching could easily fill up a book (and has).

I don't get this at all from my Bible. There is NO direction in the Bible for personal use of tongues (they are LANGUAGES folks!) and self-edification is not a Pauline recommendation. Edification of the church is the ONLY reason for the use of tongues (languages) with which to spread the Gospel.

 

[Poke]

I believe that Pentecostal 'tongues' are ALWAYS fake

I have a pentecostal background and must agree. It's always fake. That's not to say everyone speaking tongues knows its fake. But, I can't imagine anyone who has been around long enough to make it to a leadership position thinking its anything other than fake.

 

[jgredline]

Actually I have spent quite a bit of time studing the gifts of the holy spirit.
I will say this and will speak on it more a little later.
While agree that most people that claim to speak in tounges are fake, there are definatly some that are not. For most people that speak in tounges its a prayer language that is done in the privacy of ones own time of devotion. Not in public. There is also the gift of tounges in public such as church. If its from GOD there will be someone to interpret the message. I have only seen this once in my life about 26 years ago. It was an amazing thing to witness. I have prayed for the gifts of tounges, but it was not granted to me. Its ok as i am well pleased with my other gifts.

Like I said I will exposite a little more. I will look up the vesres and type up my thoughts in word.
Blessings.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I believe that Pentecostal 'tongues' are ALWAYS fake

I have a pentecostal background and must agree. It's always fake. That's not to say everyone speaking tongues knows its fake. But, I can't imagine anyone who has been around long enough to make it to a leadership position thinking its anything other than fake.

Yes, I agree. After one learns to 'babble' they may well believe that it's a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit within them. Then it will be awfully difficult or even impossible to convince them otherwise. As for those in leadership positions who support this practice ...it IS a worry.

What has occurred within the Pentecostal Movement came about through a misinterpretation of 1 Corinthians:13. At least THIS is the scripture they use for support. It amazes me to think that some otherwise intelligent individuals can be so duped by a misrepresentation to the 'tongues of angels' as found in that scripture. In reality the Bible makes no reference at all to an actual angelic language that may be spoken by humans. Paul knew this and this is why he used 'angel tongues' as hyperbole to make his point about LOVE.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I have prayed for the gifts of tounges, but it was not granted to me. Its ok as i am well pleased with my other gifts.

I don't mean this unkindly, j.g. but ...why on earth would you pray for the gift of tongues? Wouldn't the language you used to pray for 'the gift' suffice as the language in which you normally pray? I'm sorry, but I can never understand the need for 'prayer language' ...a language that neither God nor the speaker understands. And, how can one be edified as long as they have no clue as to what is being said ...????

Another thing, guys ...any chance that we can all get together on the correct spelling?

It's T-O-N-G-U-E-S!! :D :D

 

[cyberjosh]

While agree that most people that claim to speak in tounges are fake, there are definatly some that are not. For most people that speak in tounges its a prayer language that is done in the privacy of ones own time of devotion. Not in public. There is also the gift of tounges in public such as church. If its from GOD there will be someone to interpret the message. I have only seen this once in my life about 26 years ago. It was an amazing thing to witness. I have prayed for the gifts of tounges, but it was not granted to me. Its ok as i am well pleased with my other gifts.

I think you understand then what I was talking about, because I agree. And yes the common Penecostal tongue is fake, and I dare not tell you my theory why, because it is conjecture (but I do not believe that all are making it up themselves). But we can't draw an overall stereo type. My Dad has the gift of tongues as a prayer language, he has never felt led to use it in a public setting. This at the very least is a confirmation that tongues is a valid gift still alive today. And we are not of a Pentecostal background if anyone was wondering...Baptist actually.

Like I said I will exposite a little more. I will look up the vesres and type up my thoughts in word.

That would be great, because I usually find myself getting into the hugest sweeping discussions and find myself at a lack of time to look up the adequate rescources to help the discussion along. I look forward to it.

 

[SputnikBoy]

What on earth is a 'prayer language' anyway? The Bible says nothing about this.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe there is much confusion within the Church about true speaking in tongues.Some say this gift has ceased when the Apostles and Disciples left this earth. Some say it is foolishness. And some just don't understand it. I believe there has been ongoing dispute between Baptists and other Denominations for years. Therefore, being a Pentecostal, I will try my best to explain the gift of tongues.

Tongues is a supernatural manisfestation of the Holy Spirit. It may be in existing spoken languages ( Ac. 2:6) or in languages unknown to earth. It is not escatic speech as rendered in some translations, for the Bible itself never uses this term.

Speaking in tongues is an inspired utterence whereby the believer's spirit and the Holy Spirit join in verbal praise and or prophesy. God linked speaking in tongues with the Baptism in the Spirit from the very beginning ( Ac. 2:4), so that 120 believers at Pentecosat, and believers thereafter, would have an experiential confirmation that they have indeed received the baptism in the Holy Spirit ( Ac. 10:45-46).

Speaking in tongues is also described as a gift of the Holy Spirit to the believer ( 1 Cor. 12:4-10). This gift has two main purposes: Speaking in tongues may be a Spirit-given message during Worship for the Church, but must be accompanied by interpretation so that everyone understands the message and is edified.Speaking in tongues also may be used by the individual believer to speak to God during his personal devotions and thus to build up or strengthen one's spiritual life ( 1 Cor. 14:4). It means speaking at the level of the Spirit ( 14:2, 14) for the purpose of praying ( ! Cor. 14:2, 14, 15, 28), giving thanks ( 14:16-17) or singing.

I believe one of the biggest stumbling blocks is that many get filled with the Spirit, just expect the Holy Spirit to do all the work. We must use our mouths as the Spirit within us gives us this beautiful prayer language.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[cyberjosh]

It means speaking at the level of the Spirit ( 14:2, 14) for the purpose of praying ( ! Cor. 14:2, 14, 15, 28), giving thanks ( 14:16-17) or singing.

Cool, you noticed that it was used for singing also? My Dad told be about that, he said it was the neatest thing he's ever experienced. That may have been what Paul meant when he mentioned singing "Spiritual Songs".

 

[jgredline]

Lets look at these two verses first and what I believe they mean.
1 cor 12:10b-11

The gift of tongues, as has been mentioned, is the ability to speak a foreign language without ever having learned it. Tongues were given for a sign, especially to Israel.
The interpretation of tongues is the miraculous power to understand a language which the person has never known before and to convey the message in the local language.
It is perhaps significant that this list of gifts begins with those that are connected primarily with the intellect and closes with those dealing primarily with the emotions. The Corinthians had reversed this in their thinking. They exalted the gift of tongues above the other gifts. They somehow thought that the more a man had of the Holy Spirit, the more he was carried off by a power beyond himself. They confused power with spirituality.
12:11 All the gifts mentioned in verses 8–10 are produced and controlled by the same Spirit. Here again we see that He does not give the same gift to everyone. He distributes to each one individually as He wills. This is another important pointâ€â€the Spirit sovereignly apportions the gifts. If we really grasp this, it will eliminate pride on the one hand, because we don’t have anything that we didn’t receive. And it will eliminate discontent on the other hand, because Infinite Wisdom and Love decided what gift we should have, and His choice is perfect. It is wrong for everyone to desire the same gift. If everyone played the same instrument, you could never have a symphony orchestra. And if a body consisted only of tongue, it would be a monstrosity. Like I said earlier, in another post. I have prayed for the gifts of tongues, but my prayer was not answered because I wanted it to be honest for the cool factor. At this point I will also mention that many penticostals believe that speaking of tongues is evident of the baptizim of the Holy Spirit and salvation when Verse 11 clearly says its not, by distributing different gifts to everyone of his children…

This concludes part 1

Blessings Jg

 

[golfjack]

reply

First of all: Our Salvation is a free gift. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a free gift. How do we receive these free Gifts? Either by Asking in faith or by someone laying hands on us. Any Born Again Christian can receive this free gift. The nine gifts of the Spirit are distributed to the Body of Christ as God sees fit. For example, Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom are gifts that God can give one. Do you see the difference?

I want to make it clear that I am not United Pentecostal, which to me is a cult. Also, I am not Holiness Pentecostal, which are true believers, but are kind of radical.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Golfjack
I am not directing anything at you. While you and I may have some theological differances, we agree on the very principles of scripture. Infact your theoplogy seems to be inline from what I can see with the 4 square denomination whicj is penticostal / charasmatic but have thier theology right.
That is Jack Hayfords deal who is a good teacher. Most penticostal churches like the united penticostals are cults as are the Jesus only penticostals, and perhaps that would make a good thread as well. To discuss the variouse differances in denominations and church assemblies.

OK, now part 2

1 cor 12:27-30
12:27 Paul reminds the Corinthians that they are the body of Christ. This cannot mean the Body of Christ in its totality. Neither can it mean a Body of Christ, since there is only one Body. It can only mean that they collectively formed a microcosm or miniature of the Body of Christ. Individually each one is a member of that great cooperative society. As such he should fulfill his function without any feeling of pride, independence, envy, or worthlessness.
12:28 The apostle now gives us another list of gifts. None of these lists is to be considered as complete. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles. The word first indicates that not all are apostles. The twelve were men who had been commissioned by the Lord as His messengers. They were with Him during His earthly ministry (Acts 1:21, 22) and, with the exception of Judas, saw Him after His resurrection (Acts 1:2, 3, 22). But others besides the twelve were apostles. The most notable was Paul. There were also Barnabas (Acts 14:4, 14); James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19); Silas and Timothy (1 Thess.1:1; 2:6). Together with the NT prophets, the apostles laid the doctrinal foundation of the church in what they taught about the Lord Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:20). In the strict meaning of the word, we no longer have apostles. In a wider sense, we still have messengers and church-planters sent forth by the Lord. By calling them missionaries instead of apostles, we avoid creating the impression that they have the extraordinary authority and power of the early apostles. We will leave the ‘’is there still apostles today’’ for another debate on a different thread. I mention this because its important to keep ALL letters, but especially Pauls in context.
Next are the prophets. Prophets were spokesmen of God, men who uttered the very word of God in the day before it was given in complete written form. Teachers are those who take the word of God and explain it to the people in an understandable way. Miracles might refer to raising the dead, casting out demons, etc. Healings have to do with the instantaneous cure of bodily diseases. Helps are commonly associated with the work of deacons, those entrusted with the material affairs of the church. The gift of administrations, on the other hand, is usually applied to elders or bishops. These are the men who have the godly, spiritual care of the local church. Last is the gift of tongues.I believe that there is a significance in the order. Paul mentions apostles first and tongues last. The Corinthians were putting tongues first and disparaging the apostle!
12:29, 30 When the apostle asks if every believer has the same gift â€â€whether apostle, prophet, teacher, miracles, healings, helps, governments, tongues, interpretations of tonguesâ€â€the grammar in the original shows that he expects and requires a “No†answer. Therefore any suggestion, expressed or implied, that everyone should have the gift of tongues, is contrary to the word of God and is foreign to the whole concept of the body with its many different members, each with its own function.
If, as stated here, not everyone has the gift of tongues, then it is wrong to teach that tongues are the sign of the baptism of the Spirit. For, in that case, not everyone could expect that baptism. But the truth is that every believer has already been baptized by the Spirit (v. 13).

Ok
This concludes part 2, now on to part 3
Blessings,
Jg

 

[jgredline]

Ok, time for part three.
This is a single verse and is easy to exposit on.
Looking at my concordance, there is still much to be said on tongues, but I am getting tired. My eyes are not young any more.

1 cor 13
13:1 Even if a person could speak in all languages, human and angelic, but didn’t use this ability for the good of others, it would be no more profitable or pleasant than the clanging, jangling sound of metals crashing against each other. Where the spoken word is not understood, there is no profit. It is just a nerve-racking din contributing nothing to the common good. For tongues to be beneficial, they must be interpreted. Even then, what is said must be edifying. The tongues of angels may be figurative for exalted speech, but it does not mean an unknown language, because whenever angels spoke to men in the Bible, it was in the common speech, easily understood.

OK, on to part 4.

blessings Jg

 

[golfjack]

reply

Jgre, This has been a nice and profitible discussion. Yes, we do agree in Thelogy, and I surely appreciate your comments. Maybe I know what the confussion about tongues. This will be short, as I must go somewhere pretty soon.

1 Cor. 12: 10 talks about different kinds of tongues. Often called divers tongues. I know of a preacher who was preaching in a foreign country. He couldn't speak there language. He asked for an interpreter. Then He spoke in his language, and all understand what he was saying without an interpreter. When he was told this, he was amazed. Now this gift is not to be confused with ordinary tongues. It should be treated as Gift we should strive for, but not a free gift like salvation. We also have tongue interpretation, which we should seek, but again God will distribute this gift as He pleases and use it for Church edification.

One of these days, we will have to discuss faith, as I believe many just don't use their properly.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[jgredline]

Golfjack
Again we agree. I am working on the differant types of tongues right now. Problem is I am at work doing this when I should be working. Oh well,
Blessings.
Javier