Who are "the dead in Christ"

[AgapeAll]

Hello everyone,

I have read and heard many sermons on the different theories on how we get to heaven.

Some say we arrive at the same time. Others say we arrive immediately on death but do not receive our glorified bodies until the rapture. I am having trouble with this text...

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If in fact we do arrive at the same time and receive our glorified bodies at the rapture, who are the redeemed 24 elders and how can Abraham's bosom exist?

If we die and immediately go into the presence of God (and Hades) then who are the dead in Christ spoken of here?

 

[samuel]

The dead in Christ, are simply those who have died trusting in Christ.

Paul says:

2Co:5:8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So its apparent to die is to be present with the lord.

To teach any different is to teach Soul Sleep, and that's not in the Bible.

Abrahams Bosom most agree is a description of Paradise. The thief on the cross was told by the Lord, today you will be with me in Paradise.
The 24 Elders most agree are the 12 Patriarchs, and 12 Apostles.

We live in a physical existence, Heaven is a Spiritual existence, some things will be understood only after we arrive.

 

[AgapeAll]

The dead in Christ, are simply those who have died trusting in Christ.

So If they are all the saved, this would mean they have not yet received their glorified bodies. Correct?

Paul says:

2Co:5:8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So its apparent to die is to be present with the lord.

If they are present with the Lord currently then they are there in spirit. Where is everyone in Rev 4?

To teach any different is to teach Soul Sleep, and that's not in the Bible.

Abrahams Bosom most agree is a description of Paradise. The thief on the cross was told by the Lord, today you will be with me in Paradise.
The 24 Elders most agree are the 12 Patriarchs, and 12 Apostles.

We live in a physical existence, Heaven is a Spiritual existence, some things will be understood only after we arrive.

I was speaking more along the lines of the rich man and the beggar. They had tangible bodies. Glorified or not it is unknown. They certainly did not have their earthly flesh. So if they had bodies.. just who are the dead in Christ?

 

[samuel]

Johns vision is of a timless Heavenly Court, it exist in the timeless spiritual realm. And does not represent any certian time, or date.

The story of the Rich man, and the beggar is a metaphor of the destination of the good and bad. You don't view it as Physical, because it is spiritual.

 

[XTruth]

The dead in Christ, are simply those who have died trusting in Christ.

So If they are all the saved, this would mean they have not yet received their glorified bodies. Correct?

That is correct. The ones who have died while being without sin (righteous), are in heaven in soul and spirit, awaiting the Rapture, just as those of us are who are righteously living here on earth and awaiting our glorified bodies at the Rapture.

Paul says:

2Co:5:8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

So its apparent to die is to be present with the lord.

If they are present with the Lord currently then they are there in spirit. Where is everyone in Rev 4?

Rev.4:1 is the Rapture of the overcomers in Christ...the obedient Christians. The Raptured obedient Christians are in heaven before the throne during Revelation 4:2 - Rev.5:14. Heaven is a physical place. It is not a hologram in appearance, but even more real than our existance is now, and every bit as tangible. Rev.6:1 begins the 7 year Tribulation here on earth.

To teach any different is to teach Soul Sleep, and that's not in the Bible.

Abrahams Bosom most agree is a description of Paradise. The thief on the cross was told by the Lord, today you will be with me in Paradise.
The 24 Elders most agree are the 12 Patriarchs, and 12 Apostles.

We live in a physical existence, Heaven is a Spiritual existence, some things will be understood only after we arrive.

I was speaking more along the lines of the rich man and the beggar. They had tangible bodies. Glorified or not it is unknown. They certainly did not have their earthly flesh. So if they had bodies.. just who are the dead in Christ?

Soul sleep is taught at an alarming rate, it is not true, that is correct, and I'll prove it through any presented Scripture to anyone who advocates it...just start a thread.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable at all or a metaphor. Jesus used real names about a real happening. To use real names would be a lie if the story wasn't true. They were both physically dead, but very much alive in existance. The begger, Lazarus, was in Abraham's bosom, also called paradise. This was located in the lower parts of earth...a chamber in hell, but they were safe who were righteous. You've heard it said that Jesus set the captives free; undoubtedly from your post, no one told you who the captives were. They were the righteous Jesus went to while He was physically dead for 3 days. Before His blood atonement, sin was only covered, not taken away. The righteous could not enter the gates of heaven until their sin was taken away by the blood of the Lamb of God. The rich man was unrighteous and was and is in hell. There was a canyon dividing paradise and hell. The rich man, Abraham, and the begger were talking across it. When Jesus told the man on the cross that he would be w/ Him in paradise that day, He was talking about Abraham's bosom, which the man on the cross was only at for 3 days...he is now in heaven (spirit and soul) and awaiting the Rapture. aT THE TIME OF THE STORY OF THE RICH MAN AND THE BEGGER (Lk.16:19-31), they did not have their glorified bodies. Even though the rich man was only spirit and soul, he could still feel and remember everything. Hell is a very real place in the center of the earth, not a spiritual place at all. The fallen angels and Satan have physical bodies and the fire is very real.

The dead in Christ are the saints who are alive in heaven. They are physically dead, but very much alive, for they are in Christ, and He is the life source of everything. If you know someone who is dead, but you know they lived according to the gospel w/ Christ as their Savior, then they are dead in Christ, and awaiting the Rapture. At the Rapture, it is not just Christ that comes to the sky, but also the saints in heaven come with Him. They will be Raptured first, then the obedient Christians that are physically alive on earth at that time, will be Raptured as well. They will all meet in the sky, in our atmosphere, then go to heaven (a very real and physical place...like a planet) for 7 years until they come back to rule and reign w/ Christ for 1,000 years, then God will come to earth to make His home on earth right after He renovates it w/ fire.

 

[AgapeAll]

XTruth,

Very good explanation. However there is one problem with your theory on Abe's bosom. You go through all the trouble of explaining how real Jesus made it and how there are no metaphors but then you explain away their bodies.

The rich man specifically asked for real water from a real finger to dip on a real tongue. This cannot be spiritual.

How can this be?

 

[XTruth]

XTruth,

Very good explanation. However there is one problem with your theory on Abe's bosom. You go through all the trouble of explaining how real Jesus made it and how there are no metaphors but then you explain away their bodies.

The rich man specifically asked for real water from a real finger to dip on a real tongue. This cannot be spiritual.

How can this be?

Very good question! You seem to be thinking deeper than someone who is really genuinely looking for answers. You asked questions and come back with these statements that makes it appear like you have a secret agenda. I hope I'm wrong...I will reply to the best of my ability.

Here is what we know of the spirit and soul of the dead in Christ and the dead in sin. They are not ghostly looking, like we think of spirits to be.
The rich man's body was buried (Lk.16:22), so was Lazarus' body(vs.22)....glorified bodies are the reuniting of the soul, spirit, and body to an immortal and incorruptible state (1 Cor.15:50-54). If we have glorified bodies right after we die, then there would never be a body to bury.
The rich man went to hell (vs.23), he was tormented (vs.23-25, 28), he possessed eyes that could see and distinguish persons (vs.23), he cried for mercy and begged for Lazarus to bring a drop of water to cool his tongue (vs.24), he still had a tongue, eyes, memory, intelligence, feelings, emotions, will, voice, reasoning powers, concern for his brothers, and all other soul passions and spirit faculties (vs.23-31).

Lazarus had his spirit and soul carried by the angels to paradise (vs.22), he was w/ Abraham and all the redeemed (vs.23), he was in comfort; no hell, no torment, no separation from the saved, no crying for mercy, no regrets of the past, and no thirst or punishment in hell fire (vs.23-25), He retained spirit and soul faculties capable of enjoyment of eternity with God (vs.24-26).

It appears as though that our preconceived notions of what a soul and spirit should be is in contradiction with what the Word of our God teaches.

 

[AgapeAll]

I have no hidden agenda accept to seek the truth.

I'm just a brother who loves the Lord and seeks after Him who was once a wretched man and is now saved by the grace of the lamb.

I believe that the Lord is to be found when you search for Him with all your heart.

I can go with what you are saying only because neither of us know what is is like to be out of our body and if we would still reference the body.

There are many prominent pastors that believe there are saints in bodies in heaven right now. There are pastors that believe that we will all arrive there at the same time not based on soul sleep but wormholes.

If you do not believe that is possible.. I must ask how big is your God?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkxieS-6WuA

I have really only seen verses that speculate both views and nothing has truly jumped out at me.

God Bless

 

[Joe67]

AgapeAll,

Keep searching.

Phil 3:12-15
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. KJV

Joe