Who is Given Eternal Life ?

[glorydaz]

glory



Yes..



Ok



Not everyone without exception,the elect !



Those who Christ died for .



False, The elect are saved by His Life, not by their looking to him and entering into him. Looking and Entering are works of man, things they do. Thats salvation by works again..

Right, we're just pawns in God's big chessboard in the sky. ;)

 

[mondar]

Mondar---- What does your bible say in John 6:44? Maybe your translation read different. Can you pick one below?
1---- "Any man" can come to me."
2---- "some men can come to me"
3---- "A few men can come to me"
4---- "no man can come to me"

We must 'declare" the entire verse, lest a point be made through a partial reading. So, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. What is being referenced here is, the fact that God has chosen to "draw" ALL men (we know from other verses, but you don't wish to go that route) to Christ.

OK, lets focus on the 2nd part of John 6:44.
"except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
Notice the word "him" occurs twice in the text. Of course it is the same person. The "him" being drawn is the same "him" that is raised up on the last day.

John 6:40 tells us the nature of this resurrection.
"For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
It speaks of eternal life, or salvation. So then, all those drawn by the Father receive eternal life.

Grubal, I know you do not believe in universalism. On the other hand, if you read the verse as you say, that God draws "all" men, then all men are "raise up on the last day" to eternal life. That doctrine is universalism.

Mondar---Everyone agrees that we must first hear the gospel. That of course is a straw man. When a man comes to the gospel, it is due to the work of God in man, and not the work of man for God. Faith is a divine undertaking where God brings about faith. Without God, "no man can come to me."

Grubal-----God indeed uses His word to declare His "provision" for the forgiveness of sin and to show His mercy, through Christ...Before a man can receive the Gospel, he must first, "believe." Christ has "done" "ALL" the work, we must provide the faith in what He's done...God created man with a "free-will" to choose what he will place his faith in... God doesn't force (a supernatural faith) on or in anyone. They must place their faith in Christ and Him alone to be saved...

Grubal, I see several errors in your statement above.
First, "receive the Gospel" and "believe" are the same things. There is no "first" or "before" with regard to those to things.
Second, If Christ did "all" the work for salvation, then you would not have to add that "we must provide the faith in what He's done." Faith is a part of the work of salvation. It is the human requirement for one part of salvation... justification. Faith is the part of salvation that pleases God. In your theology, since the sinful rebellious flesh is what generates faith, rebellious sinners merit salvation by their faith. In the theology of the scriptures, since faith is generated by an action of the HS called regeneration, the merit of faith belongs to God.
Third, you are avoiding all the implications of original sin and the fall of Adam. Man became a sinner and a rebel at the fall of Adam. We have all gone astray to establish our own ethic.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

OK, lets focus on the 2nd part of John 6:44.
"except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
Notice the word "him" occurs twice in the text. Of course it is the same person. The "him" being drawn is the same "him" that is raised up on the last day.

John 6:40 tells us the nature of this resurrection.
"For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
It speaks of eternal life, or salvation. So then, all those drawn by the Father receive eternal life.

Grubal, I know you do not believe in universalism. On the other hand, if you read the verse as you say, that God draws "all" men, then all men are "raise up on the last day" to eternal life. That doctrine is universalism.



Grubal, I see several errors in your statement above.
First, "receive the Gospel" and "believe" are the same things. There is no "first" or "before" with regard to those to things.
Second, If Christ did "all" the work for salvation, then you would not have to add that "we must provide the faith in what He's done." Faith is a part of the work of salvation. It is the human requirement for one part of salvation... justification. Faith is the part of salvation that pleases God. In your theology, since the sinful rebellious flesh is what generates faith, rebellious sinners merit salvation by their faith. In the theology of the scriptures, since faith is generated by an action of the HS called regeneration, the merit of faith belongs to God.
Third, you are avoiding all the implications of original sin and the fall of Adam. Man became a sinner and a rebel at the fall of Adam. We have all gone astray to establish our own ethic.

Mondar----"except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day."
Notice the word "him" occurs twice in the text. Of course it is the same person. The "him" being drawn is the same "him" that is raised up on the last day.

Grubal-----John 6:44 reads, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." This verse is a "generalization." It's saying "no one can" come to Christ unless the Father draws him. It sets up the "way in which we come to Christ. If you will, "the causative effect." If we "isolate or lift the verse out of context or "prematurely" assume the verse to be, the is all, be all, we're setting ourselves up for "speculative error." We are "drawn" to Christ (by God) through His "Word" the Bible (Gospel) And that includes "everyone" who "hears the Word." This verse does "not" relate to some "choice election" before the foundation of the world...It's a verse that "resonates" of "generalization..." Not ALL who are "drawn" to Christ will receive Him and that is due to the fact that we have, free-will to choose what we believe. Only those who are "drawn" and believe will be saved (raised up)

Mondar----Grubal, I know you do not believe in universalism. On the other hand, if you read the verse as you say, that God draws "all" men, then all men are "raise up on the last day" to eternal life. That doctrine is universalism.

Grubal--- Like I brought up in the previous answer, not ALL will be saved, only those who are "drawn" and place their faith in Christ will be saved. The others will be judged according to their "works" and face separation from God and eternal punishment...

Mondar---- If Christ did "all" the work for salvation, then you would not have to add that "we must provide the faith in what He's done." Faith is a part of the work of salvation.

Grubal----Christ, "did" do ALL the work necessary. And according to Scripture, "we must believe" Some say "faith" is a work, some say it's not. My argument is not over the word "works" if we look at Scripture, it tells us that Christ paid it all, it also tells us to believe. I don't have a problem with that as others obviously do. They may see it as a contradiction or they may see it as, "implausible." As for me, I'm not going to quibble with it, I'll just trust that Christ died for my sins and God expects me to place my faith in Christ. Therefore, it covers all the requirements...

Mondar---- In your theology, since the sinful rebellious flesh is what generates faith, rebellious sinners merit salvation by their faith. In the theology of the scriptures, since faith is generated by an action of the HS called regeneration, the merit of faith belongs to God.

Grubal----
'The sinful rebellious flesh' is not what "generates faith" The fact that God "created" man with a "free-will" to choose is what "originates" our faith... Sinners don't "merit" Salvation by their faith, they receive mercy and forgiveness through Christ's finished "work on the cross, by placing their faith in Christ alone for their salvation...No one "merits" God's free gift to man. regeneration only occurs "after" we have heard the word and placed our faith.

Mondar----Third, you are avoiding all the implications of original sin and the fall of Adam. Man became a sinner and a rebel at the fall of Adam. We have all gone astray to establish our own ethic.

Grubal----I don't have a clue as to why you say, I'm avoiding the topic of "original sin." We all come into this world as sinners because of Adam. When we're born, before we even commit, "one" of our own sins, we are still guilty of being a sinner...

 

[mondar]

Mondar----Grubal, I know you do not believe in universalism. On the other hand, if you read the verse as you say, that God draws "all" men, then all men are "raise up on the last day" to eternal life. That doctrine is universalism.

Grubal--- Like I brought up in the previous answer, not ALL will be saved, only those who are "drawn" and place their faith in Christ will be saved. The others will be judged according to their "works" and face separation from God and eternal punishment...

Exactly. You got it right. Not all will be saved, but all those drawn will be saved. Therefore, the drawing in this verse always leads to salvation and never fails. The end of the verse makes that clear because it says the one drawn is also "raised." So then, since this drawing is the work of God, faith is also the work of God and is not due to the ability of man.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Mondar----Grubal, I know you do not believe in universalism. On the other hand, if you read the verse as you say, that God draws "all" men, then all men are "raise up on the last day" to eternal life. That doctrine is universalism.

Grubal--- Like I brought up in the previous answer, not ALL will be saved, only those who are "drawn" and place their faith in Christ will be saved. The others will be judged according to their "works" and face separation from God and eternal punishment...

Exactly. You got it right. Not all will be saved, but all those drawn will be saved. Therefore, the drawing in this verse always leads to salvation and never fails. The end of the verse makes that clear because it says the one drawn is also "raised." So then, since this drawing is the work of God, faith is also the work of God and is not due to the ability of man.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. God indeed, draws ALL men. John 12:32---And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "all" men unto me. The key word there is "ALL" meaning all of mankind... The faith used towards salvation belongs to man, because God has given ALL men "free-will to choose."

 

[childeye]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. God indeed, draws ALL men. John 12:32---And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "all" men unto me. The key word there is "ALL" meaning all of mankind... The faith used towards salvation belongs to man, because God has given ALL men "free-will to choose."

Faith is not freewill. Why do you believe in Jesus Grubal?

 

[glorydaz]

Faith is not freewill. Why do you believe in Jesus Grubal?

Since your idea of freewill is faulty, childeye, why do you even ask him such a question?

We all know you wouldn't listen. You'd start in about how man is controlled by satan and isn't even able to disobey God. Therefore, according to your definition, we're just along for the ride and God expects nothing from us.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Faith is not freewill. Why do you believe in Jesus Grubal?

Faith is putting your entire trust (and eternal destination) into Christ and Him crucified, combined with His Resurrection...I cannot trust my good works, another gospel, another man, another philosophy, or anything else, except Christ... As He said, "I am the way,the truth and the life..." Why do I believe in Jesus? Because I first, heard the word was convicted by the Spirit and placed my faith in Christ and Him alone for my salvation. Now, I will spend eternity with God, because of what Christ did and for placing my faith in Him...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Since your idea of freewill is faulty, childeye, why do you even ask him such a question?

We all know you wouldn't listen. You'd start in about how man is controlled by satan and isn't even able to disobey God. Therefore, according to your definition, we're just along for the ride and God expects nothing from us.

AMEN!!!

 

[glorydaz]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. God indeed, draws ALL men. John 12:32---And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "all" men unto me. The key word there is "ALL" meaning all of mankind... The faith used towards salvation belongs to man, because God has given ALL men "free-will to choose."

You are absolutely correct in what you say, Grubal. I would like to elaborate a bit, if I may.

All men are drawn....Jesus is here signifying what death he should die. Lifted up and hanging from the cross.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The way of the cross is how mankind is reconciled to God.
Sin was dealt with at the cross and the enmity between God and man is over.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Just prior to Jesus saying He will be lifted up...He tells them that now is the judgment of this world for the prince of this world is cast out. Satan and sin have no more dominion over man.

Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

While all men are drawn to the light and come near, not all will go on to salvation...as you said.

Now to John 6. The work of God is that we believe. The sign given is the manna.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

Yes, the bread of life. Jesus says they have seen Him and believe not.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I won't repost the verses that have been posted so many times here. We know what they are, but I will post those that have been left off since I believe they are critical to understanding this passage. After Jesus elaborates, they murmer. We've all met people who do that when they hear about Jesus.

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Every man therefore that hath heard (not murmered or scoffed), and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. God looks at our heart, whether there is true conviction of our sins and belief in what we see and hear. The POWER of the Gospel of Faith mixes with the faith in us and we are saved. These are who are drawn by the Father and given to Christ...those who believe the gospel of Christ.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Those who eat the bread...not those who scoff and strive among themselves - will have eternal life.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Which brings us back full circle to this verse in Romans, only instead of reconciled by his death, we are saved by his life by "eating" the bread from heaven.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[glorydaz]

Faith is putting your entire trust (and eternal destination) into Christ and Him crucified, combined with His Resurrection...I cannot trust my good works, another gospel, another man, another philosophy, or anything else, except Christ... As He said, "I am the way,the truth and the life..." Why do I believe in Jesus? Because I first, heard the word was convicted by the Spirit and placed my faith in Christ and Him alone for my salvation. Now, I will spend eternity with God, because of what Christ did and for placing my faith in Him...

I wish I had my cheerleading costume...I'd put it on. Amen, brother.

 

[felix]

When all is said and done, we know that there is only one goup of people that shall have Eternal Life given them. Listen to the words of my Blessed Saviour Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

To as many as the Father hath given Christ !

True...

(Col 3:3) For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

 

[mondar]

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. God indeed, draws ALL men. John 12:32---And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "all" men unto me. The key word there is "ALL" meaning all of mankind... The faith used towards salvation belongs to man, because God has given ALL men "free-will to choose."

At the beginning I mentioned not jumping to a different context for a reason. I knew this would happen. It is of course a good debating tactic to win an argument to jump to a different subject or passage if your opponent has a strong or even an airtight argument. In my opinion, such debating is a waist of time. After this post, I will probably bow out of the discussion for a number of reasons.

I would agree that John 12:32 less clearly demonstrates that salvation is a gift from God. In fact the term gift is not in the context. Nevertheless, let me address the objections from John 12.

Joh 12:20 Now there were certain Greeks among those that went up to worship at the feast:
Joh 12:21 these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Joh 12:22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: Andrew cometh, and Philip, and they tell Jesus.
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. ...
..... Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.

A major exegetical problem is that people of your persuasion assume that the word "all" (Pantas) always means each and every man that ever lived without exception (the word "men" is implied and not in the original). This should not be assumed because the word "all" does not mean all men without exception. This context has a hint at what Christ meant by the term "all." If you look, there are certain greeks that came to speak to Christ. When Christ uses the term "all" in verse 32, he is speaking of "all kinds of men." He is speaking of both greeks and Jews that he will draw to the cross.

If you are right, and Christ drew each and every man to the cross, then one of three things is true. Either...
1--- The cross really does not save.
2--- Unversalism is true.
3--- Christs drawing is so weak and ineffectual that it really is ineffectual upon all men. Then one man deserves Gods salvation by responding to that drawing, the other man deserves hell because he resisted the drawing. Salvation would then be partly by grace and partly by human merit.

However, the truth is that even in this verse there is contextual evidence that the term "all" (pas, pasa, pan) does not mean "all men without exception."

Grubal, as I said, I think its best that I bow out of this discussion. I am not complaining of your behavior, you have been courteous, but I have seen how these discussions go. Soon accusations occur, people lack kindness and charity to those with whom they disagree. The cheerleaders jump on the bandwagon. And it just gets worse and worse. At that point, the word of God is not being discussed and God is not being glorified in any way. So, I will see you somewhere else, some time else.

 

[glorydaz]

However, the truth is that even in this verse there is contextual evidence that the term "all" (pas, pasa, pan) does not mean "all men without exception."

Grubal, as I said, I think its best that I bow out of this discussion. I am not complaining of your behavior, you have been courteous, but I have seen how these discussions go. Soon accusations occur, people lack kindness and charity to those with whom they disagree. The cheerleaders jump on the bandwagon. And it just gets worse and worse. At that point, the word of God is not being discussed and God is not being glorified in any way. So, I will see you somewhere else, some time else.

This has nothing to do with the word "all", and everything to do with John 6.
The confusion that's often generated by this text is cleared up for all to see at post #30 this thread.

We see quite clearly that it's Christ that draws ALL men by his death on the cross. (reconciliation of the world to God).

It's the Father who draws ALL those who hear and respond to the Gospel message. (salvation)

 

[childeye]

Since your idea of freewill is faulty, childeye, why do you even ask him such a question?

We all know you wouldn't listen. You'd start in about how man is controlled by satan and isn't even able to disobey God. Therefore, according to your definition, we're just along for the ride and God expects nothing from us.

On the contrary glorydaz, everything you've said about me and what I see as True is not accurate. We reap what we sow. So don't say I don't listen. I respond to all your posts addressed to me meticulously, so it can't be said I don't listen. Moreover you have said I support certain ideals that I claim I don't. Do you listen?

 

[childeye]

=Grubal Muruch;585913]Faith is putting your entire trust (and eternal destination) into Christ and Him crucified, combined with His Resurrection...I cannot trust my good works, another gospel, another man, another philosophy, or anything else, except Christ... As He said, "I am the way,the truth and the life..." Why do I believe in Jesus? Because I first, heard the word was convicted by the Spirit and placed my faith in Christ and Him alone for my salvation. Now, I will spend eternity with God, because of what Christ did and for placing my faith in Him...

Yes, this is not freewill as I have said, for freewill is about freely choosing apart from any antecedent events or divine will. As you have given glory to God for the Holy Spirit that convinces a man and you see no other choice, thanks be to God.

 

[childeye]

AMEN!!!

You agree with slander Grubal.

 

[glorydaz]

On the contrary glorydaz, everything you've said about me and what I see as True is not accurate. We reap what we sow. So don't say I don't listen. I respond to all your posts addressed to me meticulously, so it can't be said I don't listen. Moreover you have said I support certain ideals that I claim I don't. Do you listen?

I'm sorry, Childeye. You have responded meticulously, and I was wrong to say you don't listen. I should have said you don't hear, and apparently I don't hear what you say either if I've misstated your beliefs. I'll certainly try harder to guard my tongue in the future....it can be such an unbridled thing, can't it?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

On the contrary glorydaz, everything you've said about me and what I see as True is not accurate. We reap what we sow. So don't say I don't listen. I respond to all your posts addressed to me meticulously, so it can't be said I don't listen. Moreover you have said I support certain ideals that I claim I don't. Do you listen?

It's not that you don't listen (that's not the problem) it's that you don't understand enough to give an answer. Due to the fact you don't believe the same way...

 

[childeye]

It's not that you don't listen (that's not the problem) it's that you don't understand enough to give an answer. Due to the fact you don't believe the same way...

There are many threads on this forum. It may be I have not answered some posts of yours. I know I am always eager to answer any questions, so what are these questions I have not answered as you claim?

As I recall you had implied to me you do not wish to have anymore correspondence with me in another thread. It was not my intention to force a dialogue with you, but I could not resist when you equated freewill with faith.

As far as my understanding goes, it is true, I am not able to understand your claim that God gave men the freedom to choose to disobey Him. I see no reasonable conclusion that would justify disobeying God. Nor can I comprehend why I would seek to be free from Him and so I see no value in a freewill. Hence I think we are divided by semantics and I suspect that what you call a freewill is simply sentience, being alive.