Who is Righteous?

[elijah23]

Some people repent of their sin and are, by definition, righteous.

Others do not repent of their sin but consider themselves righteous anyway. Are they?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Those who Jesus Christ died for, His death of obedience, shall make many righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The righteous are all for whom Christ died..

 

[elijah23]

Those who Jesus Christ died for, His death of obedience, shall make many righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The righteous are all for whom Christ died..

You took the bait, my friend.

Jesus died to save us from the consequences of our sins, but we do have to stop sinning. Jesus said so.

 

[WIP]

What is the definition of "righteous?"

 

[elijah23]

What is the definition of "righteous?"

I would define “righteous†as “having turned from sin.â€

 

[mondar]

Those who Jesus Christ died for, His death of obedience, shall make many righteous rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The righteous are all for whom Christ died..

You took the bait, my friend.

Jesus died to save us from the consequences of our sins, but we do have to stop sinning. Jesus said so.

Elijah, why did you not answer SBG with scripture?

 

[elijah23]

Elijah, why did you not answer SBG with scripture?

Because I assumed he had read the Bible:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

 

[mondar]

Because I assumed he had read the Bible:

It does not matter if SBG read the bible or not. Since the scripture is our authority, should not you at least try to define righteousness from the scripture?

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

Everyone is aware that the term "repent" occurs repeatedly in scripture, but it would be rediculously generous to your own view if you assume that you only need to find the term "repent" in the scriptures and that proves your point. What does the term "repent" have to do with defining righteousness?

 

[mondar]

Some people repent of their sin and are, by definition, righteous.

Others do not repent of their sin but consider themselves righteous anyway. Are they?

CONCERNING REPENTANCE
John 4:9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
A few observations on this verse.
* The first clause has the term "begotten" in the perfect tense. That greek tense means that the term "begotten" is a past event with present results. The present result is that the person "begotten of God" does not sin (present tense continuous action. In other words, the one who is begotten of God does not practice sin.
* The second clause is even stronger. In the phrase "he cannot sin" the word for "cannot" is dunatai. That verb speaks of ability. The Christian no longer has the ability to live in a state of sin. How then can a Christian repent? The Christian can obviously repent of "sins" but he has already repented of "sin" and does not have the ability to return to "sin." The reason for this present inability to live in "sin" is because of the past action of God in bringing the new birth ("begotten of God")

The Christian has repented in the past by recognizing that he is sinful and a sinner. He recognizes his own rebellion and turns to Christ. The Christian life can be one of repentance of individual sins, such as when David sinned against God with Bathsheba in adultry and murder. But the Christian can never again repent of sin. This is because he can never again live in sin.

CONCERNING RIGHTEOUSNESS
The root word for righteousness and justify is very similar. The meanings must then be very close.

The term justiy has a range of meaning in the scriptures. At times it can mean to be made righteous, other times it can mean to be declared righteous. The context determines the shades of meaning.

One passage that has an obvious context in which the meaning is "declared righteous" is Romans 8

33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
The accused individual comes before the divine judge, he is presented as guilty by the accuser, but the defense lawyer, Jesus Christ appeals that the penalty has been paid (Romans 5:9). So then the divine judge bangs his gavel and pronounces the accused acquitted of all crimes and sins.

So then, is the Christian practically righteous? No, personal sins still occur, but because the Christian does not live in sin, he will always turn away from those personal sins. The Christian is positionally righteous because we were acquitted of all charges at the cross. We are positionally righteous being "in Christ."

CONCLUSIONS
What is righteousness? Righteousness is then being acquitted of all crimes because we are in Christ. But also, the Christian can never live in sin for the same reason, he is in Christ. If one lives in sin, it is evidence that he was never begotten of God. For the one who was never "begotten of God" the question is can he fall? Yes, he can fall into apostacy. In fact I would state it stronger. He will absolutely fall into apostacy. He has no chance to remain in the faith.

 

[elijah23]

It does not matter if SBG read the bible or not. Since the scripture is our authority, should not you at least try to define righteousness from the scripture?




Everyone is aware that the term "repent" occurs repeatedly in scripture, but it would be rediculously generous to your own view if you assume that you only need to find the term "repent" in the scriptures and that proves your point. What does the term "repent" have to do with defining righteousness?

“Repent†in this context means to stop sinning.

As far as a definition for “righteousness,†some things are self-evident, I believe. For instance, an unrepentant fornicator is not a righteous person.

 

[elijah23]

CONCERNING REPENTANCE
John 4:9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.
A few observations on this verse.
* The first clause has the term "begotten" in the perfect tense. That greek tense means that the term "begotten" is a past event with present results. The present result is that the person "begotten of God" does not sin (present tense continuous action. In other words, the one who is begotten of God does not practice sin.
* The second clause is even stronger. In the phrase "he cannot sin" the word for "cannot" is dunatai. That verb speaks of ability. The Christian no longer has the ability to live in a state of sin. How then can a Christian repent? The Christian can obviously repent of "sins" but he has already repented of "sin" and does not have the ability to return to "sin." The reason for this present inability to live in "sin" is because of the past action of God in bringing the new birth ("begotten of God")

The Christian has repented in the past by recognizing that he is sinful and a sinner. He recognizes his own rebellion and turns to Christ. The Christian life can be one of repentance of individual sins, such as when David sinned against God with Bathsheba in adultry and murder. But the Christian can never again repent of sin. This is because he can never again live in sin.

CONCERNING RIGHTEOUSNESS
The root word for righteousness and justify is very similar. The meanings must then be very close.

The term justiy has a range of meaning in the scriptures. At times it can mean to be made righteous, other times it can mean to be declared righteous. The context determines the shades of meaning.

One passage that has an obvious context in which the meaning is "declared righteous" is Romans 8

33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
The accused individual comes before the divine judge, he is presented as guilty by the accuser, but the defense lawyer, Jesus Christ appeals that the penalty has been paid (Romans 5:9). So then the divine judge bangs his gavel and pronounces the accused acquitted of all crimes and sins.

So then, is the Christian practically righteous? No, personal sins still occur, but because the Christian does not live in sin, he will always turn away from those personal sins. The Christian is positionally righteous because we were acquitted of all charges at the cross. We are positionally righteous being "in Christ."

CONCLUSIONS
What is righteousness? Righteousness is then being acquitted of all crimes because we are in Christ. But also, the Christian can never live in sin for the same reason, he is in Christ. If one lives in sin, it is evidence that he was never begotten of God. For the one who was never "begotten of God" the question is can he fall? Yes, he can fall into apostacy. In fact I would state it stronger. He will absolutely fall into apostacy. He has no chance to remain in the faith.

We are forgiven for past sins, but we need to repent of our sin. If we haven’t repented, then we are not righteous. Right?

 

[WIP]

I would define “righteous†as “having turned from sin.â€

Is it then possible to be righteous without having been saved?

 

[mondar]

We are forgiven for past sins, but we need to repent of our sin. If we haven’t repented, then we are not righteous. Right?

The concept of saying that Christs blood only forgives past sins falls so far short of the worth of his blood that it leaves me breathless. Forgive me for speaking so passionately. I am having difficult not being passionate here. Christ blood is not so small, weak, that it cannot do more then forgive past sins. No, it saves us to the uttermost (Heb 7:25).

The concept also misses the point of our guilt. We are not only guilty of wrong deeds, but we are guilty of being evil creatures. Sin was our nature. We not only sinned, but we were totally in bondage to our sin nature (Romans 6:20). We sinned not because we goofed, but because we were sinners by nature (Ephesians 2:3). We were condemned because were were sinful by nature and creatures of God's wrath (Eph 2:3). More then this, we are also guilty because we were in Adam (Romans 5). That is called original sin. In essence, we are born dead (Rom 5:12). In fact we are in sin and trespasses even during conception (see Psa 51). So then, even if we never sinned, we could still be condemned because we are all guilty in Adam (see Romans 5). I have always like the way John Piper said it..... "I not only do bad things, I am bad." The concept that we need only forgiven for past sins committed is so far from recognizing the extent of human rebellion against God that I find the idea very uncomfortable. It sounds like an old doctrine called Pelagianism. It minimizes our suppression of the truth, and how great our guilt actually really happens to be.

If all you ask Christ to do is to forgive past transgressions during this life, you would still be in your guilt. No! Trust him to save you to the uttermost.

 

[elijah23]

Is it then possible to be righteous without having been saved?

Everybody keeps using the word “saved.†If you love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will do fine, because those are the two things Jesus taught us to do. Right?

 

[elijah23]

The concept of saying that Christs blood only forgives past sins falls so far short of the worth of his blood that it leaves me breathless. Forgive me for speaking so passionately. I am having difficult not being passionate here. Christ blood is not so small, weak, that it cannot do more then forgive past sins. No, it saves us to the uttermost (Heb 7:25).

The concept also misses the point of our guilt. We are not only guilty of wrong deeds, but we are guilty of being evil creatures. Sin was our nature. We not only sinned, but we were totally in bondage to our sin nature (Romans 6:20). We sinned not because we goofed, but because we were sinners by nature (Ephesians 2:3). We were condemned because were were sinful by nature and creatures of God's wrath (Eph 2:3). More then this, we are also guilty because we were in Adam (Romans 5). That is called original sin. In essence, we are born dead (Rom 5:12). In fact we are in sin and trespasses even during conception (see Psa 51). So then, even if we never sinned, we could still be condemned because we are all guilty in Adam (see Romans 5). I have always like the way John Piper said it..... "I not only do bad things, I am bad." The concept that we need only forgiven for past sins committed is so far from recognizing the extent of human rebellion against God that I find the idea very uncomfortable. It sounds like an old doctrine called Pelagianism. It minimizes our suppression of the truth, and how great our guilt actually really happens to be.

If all you ask Christ to do is to forgive past transgressions during this life, you would still be in your guilt. No! Trust him to save you to the uttermost.

Jesus told us to stop sinning. I would suggest we stop sinning.

 

[mondar]

Jesus told us to stop sinning. I would suggest we stop sinning.

Elijah, if one is a Christian, it is unlikely that they will live in sin. If the Christian does live in sin, there will be consequences. Let me articulate what I am saying with the specific scriptural example of the Corinthian Church.

They were carnal (1 Cor 3:1) or fleshly. They thought they were wise and spiritual, but they had divisions, heresies, and had all sorts of doctrinal and moral issues.

Then when we get to 1Cor 11, they were drunken during "breaking of bread." The consequences of this sinfulness was chastening.
1Cor 11:30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep.
I doubt I have to say that the sleep here is death. God is killing some of the Corinthians for their fleshly carnality and brazen sin. Those that were chastened and repentented were restored, but what about those were chastened to death? That question is answered in verse 32.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. The world will be condemned and sent to hell, but those chastened to death are not condemned with them.

In other words, God's grace is so great, that before a Christian can sin so bad that he would go to hell, God would chasten him, and if necessary to prevent an ultimate fall, God will kill him first.

I say all this because your statement "I suggest we stop sinning" sounds so trite. I am sure you did not mean it that way. To stop sinning is not a "suggestion" for the Christian life. It is an ultimatium.

 

[elijah23]

Elijah, if one is a Christian, it is unlikely that they will live in sin. If the Christian does live in sin, there will be consequences. Let me articulate what I am saying with the specific scriptural example of the Corinthian Church.

They were carnal (1 Cor 3:1) or fleshly. They thought they were wise and spiritual, but they had divisions, heresies, and had all sorts of doctrinal and moral issues.

Then when we get to 1Cor 11, they were drunken during "breaking of bread." The consequences of this sinfulness was chastening.
1Cor 11:30 For this cause many among you are weak and sickly, and not a few sleep.
I doubt I have to say that the sleep here is death. God is killing some of the Corinthians for their fleshly carnality and brazen sin. Those that were chastened and repentented were restored, but what about those were chastened to death? That question is answered in verse 32.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. The world will be condemned and sent to hell, but those chastened to death are not condemned with them.

In other words, God's grace is so great, that before a Christian can sin so bad that he would go to hell, God would chasten him, and if necessary to prevent an ultimate fall, God will kill him first.

I say all this because your statement "I suggest we stop sinning" sounds so trite. I am sure you did not mean it that way. To stop sinning is not a "suggestion" for the Christian life. It is an ultimatium.

“Stop sinning,†is short and to the point. I could make it more complicated for you, if you wish.

But, yes, we need to stop sinning. Then everything falls in place for us.

So many Christians think it is unnecessary to stop sinning and will quote all kinds of Bible verses meant to prove their point.

Or at least, that seems to be my experience.

 

[mondar]

“Stop sinning,†is short and to the point. I could make it more complicated for you, if you wish.

Why would you want to do that?

But, yes, we need to stop sinning. Then everything falls in place for us.

So many Christians think it is unnecessary to stop sinning and will quote all kinds of Bible verses meant to prove their point.

Or at least, that seems to be my experience.

Do you believe in Christian perfection?

 

[elijah23]

Why would you want to do that?




Do you believe in Christian perfection?

You stated that my statement that we need to stop sinning sounded trite, so my response was that it was short and to the point, but that I could make it more complicated if you wished.

Yes, I believe in Christian perfection, in that Jesus told us we needed to be perfect.

 

[Alabaster]

You stated that my statement that we need to stop sinning sounded trite, so my response was that it was short and to the point, but that I could make it more complicated if you wished.

Yes, I believe in Christian perfection, in that Jesus told us we needed to be perfect.

Perfect, but not in our strength, but only by the wonderful grace of God, through His Son we are already viewed as perfect, spiritually. Yes, we are to stop sinning, but we cannot do that without His help and without His forgiveness when we slip.

In John 5:14, where Jesus told the man He healed from lameness to stop sinning, lest something worse happen to him, He was expressing for us the fact that sinning is a choice, once we have encountered Him.

Unbelievers haven't got that choice.