Who is the Lord of the Harvest, When does HE reap?

[Biblereader]

What do you think, when you read these bible verses:

1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Rev. 6: And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev. 7: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10: And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11: And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12: Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev. 14: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14: And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15: And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16: And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Luke, Ch. 10: 1: After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2: Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

I do not believe in the Baptist doctrine of the body of believers being "raptured" out, away and off the earth, before ANYthing past where it says it Revelation that Jesus told John to come up hither.
Baptists teach that is when the rapture happens.
I find these verses disprove that.
I would like a discussion with any Christian, on this.

 

[Veritas]

I agree with you. I think its going to be pretty simplistic. Jesus will come back and that will be it!

But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die.†1 Corinthians 15:51-53

 

[Vic C.]

While it may be true that most Baptists, including my denom, So. Baptist, believe in PreTrib, it's not an official "doctrine" of the SBC. I don't believe it and my Pastor is somewhere between MidTrib and prewrath.

 

[sheshisown]

While it may be true that most Baptists, including my denom, So. Baptist, believe in PreTrib, it's not an official "doctrine" of the SBC. I don't believe it and my Pastor is somewhere between MidTrib and prewrath.

Hi vic~

What do you see as the difference between these two theological viewpoints in timing? I have always thought that Pre-Wrath harpazo was a Mid-Tribulation theology. When would Pre-Wrath harpazo occur?

I have to admit that your link to Gerard F. Hasel's written explanation of the exclusion of the 70th week is difficult for me to follow. I tried, believe me but to no avail. Do you have another source that backs up this position and speaks in simpler terms?

When I first began to study end times prophesy (on my own) I came to the conclusion that the church would remain waiting thru tribulation for rapture until the last trump was blown.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 +17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up [harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Some theologians say this could be timed differently from the final return (or some term it the Second Coming) of Christ. Do you think so?

My reasoning for mid-tribulation harpazo came from the example of the Israelite's seemingly suffering the effects of the first 3 plagues along with the Egyptians.

Exodus 8:17 And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt. This seems to include Israel, living in Goshen which is in Egypt.

Afterward they were shielded through separation from the remainder of the plagues ill effects.

Exodus 8:22+23 And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms [of flies] shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I [am] the LORD in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people: tomorrow shall this sign be.

Though I see different ways in which our Father works with His two joined peoples (Jews and Gentiles) into one holy body for Christ.

The majority of our fellowship believes in Pre-Tribulation harpazo, but there are a few who hold PreWrath meaning a Mid-Tribulation theology of the harpazo as well. Under my fellowships teaching I was shown what is called an outline for the timing of the book of Revelation.
It is located in chapter 1 verse 19:

John was told by Christ to;
Write the things which thou hast seen, =(his recent revelation of the glorified Christ Rev. 1:1-18) and the things which are =( the present condition of the church Rev. 1:20-3:22) and the things which shall be hereafter (future);†[explanation mine].

Thank you for any enlightenment brother. 8-)

Hello Biblereader~

I can say for the group in Revelation 7 these saints are those saved DURING the tribulation, so of course they have suffered in the great tribulation prior to their death and current place before the Lord; these are those caught in the drag-net of God one might say.

Matthew 13:47-50 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, "which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, "and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The Revelation 14 group you refer to here are those without white robes on whom judgement falls. These are the reaped, the ones that Christ will reap with a sickle out of the earth because they cling to it rather than to Him.

See verse nine prior to your quote: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, verse ten follows to tell us who that is. . .The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Those who have rejected the salvation of Christ Jesus = The Lord of the harvest.

The godly ways of the saints are compared to these during the same tribulation period in verses 12-14 . . . 12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Not being a Baptist I am unaware of the teaching of the rapture there, however I cannot discern what you are meaning by;

I do not believe in the Baptist doctrine of the body of believers being "raptured" out, away and off the earth, before ANYthing past where it says it Revelation that Jesus told John to come up hither.
Baptists teach that is when the rapture happens.

Could you clarify your position here for me a little? When do you think the rapture happens, if at all?

Thank you~ much. :D bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Bonnie! I will try to make this as brief as possible, because I don't want to sidetrack Biblereader's thread. If the PreWrath or Historicist view is something you care to understand further, we can work it out another thread or PM.

What do you see as the difference between these two theological viewpoints in timing? I have always thought that Pre-Wrath harpazo was a Mid-Tribulation theology. When would Pre-Wrath harpazo occur?

They are different futuristic positions altogether. MidTrib is just that; the middle of Daniel's 70th. week. Why they call this week a period of tribulation is beyond me. The standard teaching of many premillennial positions is that the first 3 1/2 years is relatively quiet. The middle of the "week" is when the Great Tribulation would start. You just don't find seven years of tribulation anywhere in scripture without some speculation. It's important to understand that the GT is comprised of two events; Satan's persecution of believers followed by God's Wrath.

There's the distinction; Midtribbers have their harpazo midweek. That still has them being "caught up" prior to the GT. Prewrath however, takes the more Biblical approach that believers are never promised escape from tribulation and instead, cling to the promise of not being subjected to God's Wrath. The preWrath position has it's harpazo right at the point where God's Wrath begins; somewhere about 3/4 way into the 70th. week.

Prewrath explanation including charts

http://www.scriptorium.org/articles/end ... _0019.html

Prewrath summary

http://www.theprewrathchart.com/The_Pre ... ition.html

I have to admit that your link to Gerard F. Hasel's written explanation of the exclusion of the 70th week is difficult for me to follow. I tried, believe me but to no avail. Do you have another source that backs up this position and speaks in simpler terms?

Besides the Bible? : Try http://www.historicist.com and particularly Newton's observations on Daniel. You may also want to try some Adventists sites. They have clung dearly to the historical position.

The basics are very simple though. There's no Biblical proof of a future seven year period of tribulation. The Church has been persecuted in one form or another for it's entire existence. The idea of separating Daniel's prophecy is doing a great injustice to proper Biblical exegesis. Historicists hold to the belief that Daniel's 70 week prophecy is consecutive, with the last week beginning at the start of Jesus' ministry, where He "confirms" a new covenant. The 70th. week ends in Acts, where Stephen is stoned and the Gospel is offered to Cornelius, the first of the Gentiles (effectively ending the spreading of the Gospel to "Israel"). That timespan is... seven years! Newton wrote this:

Yet shall he confirm the covenant with many for one week He kept it, notwithstanding his death, till the rejection of the Jews, and calling of Cornelius and the Gentiles in the seventh year after his passion.

The beauty of this is; it's makes the most sense scripturally from a historical point of view, yet still leaves wide open the whole belief of a future antichrist and spirit of antichrist as well as the second Advent of Jesus. It just doesn't confine itself to a seven year period. Instead, it uses primary events in our history to explain many of the Seals. It also allows me to believe in a "form" of Prewrath without having to conform to a seven year period.

You see, all I'm "looking" for are the events that are to come before God's Wrath. Biblereader posted them above.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Oh, one more thing. ;-) The Seventh angelic Trump of Revelations is probably not the "Last Trump" Paul writes about. Please see this link, it's a very quick read:

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

Now that puts it in proper Biblical and historical context!

Later and sorry for disrupting the topic. 8-)

 

[sheshisown]

vic~

Well, well, well. I can clearly see how the teaching of prewrath is the most logical view for the harpazo. How I missed the fact that the saints do not appear until the end of the seventh chapter I do not know. I recently re-read Revelation and remember pausing just there to pray. That was likely the Lord preparing my heart in advance for this cool new insight! YEAH! He is soooo wonderful! Don't-cha just love the way He works?

I was excited when I read thru the historical information on the last trump, because I have been wondering if the Feast of Trumpets is the true marker of Christ's return rather than the seventh trumpet in Revelation.

I have a ton of questions so if you would like to PM or answer these in another thread I am interested. You are the administrator so you decide which is best. And thanks, you are answering the Lord's promise to teach me~ so His Spirit to may guide me.

And [though] the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers: And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This [is] the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left. Isaiah 30:20-21
Glorious and Awesome is the Lord!

This way I don't hav ta go to school solo. :smt069 bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Bonnie,

PM is fine, but a thread in End Times might be better. I just wouldn't want you to believe anything I say without the possibility of someone interjecting and pointing out some things I may be missing. That's how we learn. I've picked up on many things I would have never considered just by reading the posts of other members. That's how I came across Newton and the Historicist's view and the "Last Trump" info.

I came onto this forum a few years ago believing PreTrib without even entertaining other positions. I was introduced to the PreWrath position right here. The main proponents of this position actually ask their "students" to study and adjust their position accordingly. They understand that not any one position is 100% correct. You just don't find that latitude with other positions. That is why I feel comfortable adopting beliefs from both the PreWrath and Historicist views. I just can't seem to find one position that suits my beliefs. LOL.

Peace,
Vic

 

[sheshisown]

Hiya Vic~

There is wisdom in your reasoning, and safety in a multitude of counselers. I have not thought thru my understanding of PreTrib thou I had a start in doing so once. I have listened to Pastors and not really checked it all out for myself. I am not willing to do that any longer, because the times we live in are filled with portents of seasonal events~ my faith must be founded in what is true regarding the times I live in.

I realize no position I believe will change my salvation, however everything I believe changes the way I live for Christ. The fact that no position is 100% correct is probably just another way in which the Lord causes us to have a lifesytle guided by faith, not facts. Praise His ways! I will start a new thread as you suggest with my questions.

Hidden in His beautifully pierced hands, bonnie

 

[Biblereader]

I do not believe the Baptist teachings of everyone being taken off the earth, before anything happens.
They all cling to the "John was told to come up hither", and that happened before the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse came, and before ANY trumpet blast was heard.

We will be caught up at the LAST TRUMPET. The bible says so. Anyone who wants to dispute that, can pray about it first.

Being caught up to be with the Lord forever won't happen until that man of sin, the son of perdition, is REVEALED.

Born again people will know he's the son of perdition, but, the majority of the people will not.
Most people are not born again, and, as the bible says, the way is NARROW, and FEW there be that find it. This is why the pre anything preaching is so soothing to the people. They don't want to think about going through tribulations of any kind.
Even though Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation.

 

[Vic C.]

I do not believe the Baptist teachings of everyone being taken off the earth, before anything happens.
They all cling to the "John was told to come up hither", and that happened before the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse came, and before ANY trumpet blast was heard.

While it may be true that most Baptists, including my denom, So. Baptist, believe in PreTrib, it's not an official "doctrine" of the SBC. I don't believe it and my Pastor is somewhere between MidTrib and prewrath.

In case you missed it, it is not an official Baptist teaching nor is it a Baptist invention.

We will be caught up at the LAST TRUMPET. The bible says so. Anyone who wants to dispute that, can pray about it first.

Being caught up to be with the Lord forever won't happen until that man of sin, the son of perdition, is REVEALED.

Born again people will know he's the son of perdition, but, the majority of the people will not.
Most people are not born again, and, as the bible says, the way is NARROW, and FEW there be that find it. This is why the pre anything preaching is so soothing to the people. They don't want to think about going through tribulations of any kind.
Even though Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation.

I don't believe anyone in this thread is disagreeing. 8-)

Even though Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation

Hence my siggy. ;-)

 

[sheshisown]

I do not believe the Baptist teachings of everyone being taken off the earth, before anything happens.
They all cling to the "John was told to come up hither", and that happened before the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse came, and before ANY trumpet blast was heard.

We will be caught up at the LAST TRUMPET. The bible says so. Anyone who wants to dispute that, can pray about it first.

Gee Biblereader~ I totally get what you are referring to here, this is the very scripture that caught my attention years ago and has me searching afresh now to find what I believe the word is revealing. I attend a Calvary Chapel, you may know this non-denominational church or not, the movement has a large body, but planted in many different cities spread across the nation and in other countries. The Pastors for the most part teach rapture prior to the Great Tribulation, PreTrib harpazo.

Bible reader also said;

Being caught up to be with the Lord forever won't happen until that man of sin, the son of perdition, is REVEALED.

Born again people will know he's the son of perdition, but, the majority of the people will not.
Most people are not born again, and, as the bible says, the way is NARROW, and FEW there be that find it. This is why the pre anything preaching is so soothing to the people. They don't want to think about going through tribulations of any kind.
Even though Jesus said in this world ye shall have tribulation.

This is the part I am researching now~ and inquiring from those who have already done the research (such as Vic) to assist me by not making me reinvent the wheel, but rather sharing the wealth of his own research ~ YEARS of research I understand. :crazyeyes:

For soooo long I have held the Pretrib view~ and its really comfortable feeling~ ya know? To start asking the Lord if I will see the Antichrist's appearance, and my loved ones die for their faith, my grand babies maybe, it's difficult to say the least. Still, I am willing to walk thru any fire the Lord leads me into because He will be in it with us! OH YEAH!

I simply do not desire to be standing on teaching that may slip out from under my feet when The Day arrives. My heart is to be faithful~ and my life was no bed of roses before I found the Lord, however I am a weak soldier when it comes to my children. God knows this as well.

Gosh I went on and on~ so solly charly~ forgive my rant. your sis ever. :D

 

[Biblereader]

Gee Biblereader~ I totally get what you are referring to here, this is the very scripture that caught my attention years ago and has me searching afresh now to find what I believe the word is revealing.
For soooo long I have held the Pretrib view~ and its really comfortable feeling~ ya know? To start asking the Lord if I will see the Antichrist's appearance, and my loved ones die for their faith, my grand babies maybe, it's difficult to say the least. Still, I am willing to walk thru any fire the Lord leads me into because He will be in it with us! OH YEAH!

I simply do not desire to be standing on teaching that may slip out from under my feet when The Day arrives. My heart is to be faithful~ and my life was no bed of roses before I found the Lord, however I am a weak soldier when it comes to my children. God knows this as well.

Gosh I went on and on~ so solly charly~ forgive my rant. your sis ever. :D

I enjoyed reading your post. I didn't know Vic was so knowledgeable about things like this.
Of course, I might have missed it, since I don't really read, word for word, long posts sometimes.
I posted this, because the Sunday school teacher last weekend was very firm in her stance on all believers being raptured before anything happens. God give us all the strength and patience to endure, and let us all remember Phil. 1:6-6: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
How do we build up our faith, and lessen our anxieties and worries? Like the people around the world, who are being persecuted?

What if YOU were in prison, today, like some are around the world, being tortured for your faith in Jesus Christ? How, honestly, how would you find the ability to go on?
What about the people who are threatened financially, or with bodily harm, because of their faith in Jesus Christ?
What bible verses do you think they use, to keep themselves on the straight and narrow?

Look here: http://www.persecution.com/ministryLink/index.cfm

 

[Vic C.]

Gee Biblereader~ I totally get what you are referring to here, this is the very scripture that caught my attention years ago and has me searching afresh now to find what I believe the word is revealing. I attend a Calvary Chapel, you may know this non-denominational church or not, the movement has a large body, but planted in many different cities spread across the nation and in other countries. The Pastors for the most part teach rapture prior to the Great Tribulation, PreTrib harpazo.

Well, if there is any denomination that is dogmatic about End Times teaching, there it is. Calvary Chapel Pastors cannot teach anything contrary to the beliefs of Chuck Smith. He is Pretrib and that's what they are instructed to teach.

... I enjoyed reading your post. I didn't know Vic was so knowledgeable about things like this.
Of course, I might have missed it, since I don't really read, word for word, long posts sometimes.

Ohh, sorry if my posts were too long. I try to keep them reasonable and topical in the End Times forum. I just post until my thought is complete. If any post is too long or hard to understand, just say so. I won't be offended. 8-) Plus, I only know what has been revealed to me. :smt102

What bible verses do you think they use, to keep themselves on the straight and narrow?

Look here: http://www.persecution.com/ministryLink/index.cfm

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

:angel:

 

[sheshisown]

Hi~

You both quoted these verses as the the events that are to come before God's Wrath I believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now as to this great falling away, also referred to as the apostasy. Jesus said, “as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be†(Matthew 24:37)NKJ.

In other words, the conditions of the world before the coming of Jesus will be like the conditions of the world before the flood:

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
This says a lot. It means there was no aspect of man’s nature not corrupted by sin.

*Exploding population (Genesis 6:1) "...men began to multiply on the face of the earth..."
*Sexual perversion (Genesis 6:2) "...the sons of God saw the daughters of men...and they took them wives of all which they chose."
*Demonic activity (Genesis 6:4) "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown."
*Constant evil in the heart of man (Genesis 6:5) ...referred above
*Widespread corruption and violence (Genesis 6:11) "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence."

Just wondering how this revelation of end times from Jesus fits into a PreWrath harpazo? :fadein: bonnie

 

[Vic C.]

Here's how I understand it; the coming of the Son of Man refers to Jesus' second Advent. Jesus' Advent ushers in "the gathering" and signals the start of God's Wrath, referred to by Prewrath as The Day of the Lord (the day of Christ as many translate 2 Thessalonians 2:2). I believe the Bible supports this belief that The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath. A study of wrath and The Day of the Lord in the OT reveals as much.

I'm not fully understanding the question, so this may not be the answer you are looking for, Bonnie...sorry. :

 

[sheshisown]

Heya Vic~

Here's how I understand it; the coming of the Son of Man refers to Jesus' second Advent. Jesus' Advent ushers in "the gathering" and signals the start of God's Wrath, referred to by Prewrath as The Day of the Lord (the day of Christ as many translate 2 Thessalonians 2:2). I believe the Bible supports this belief that The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath. A study of wrath and The Day of the Lord in the OT reveals as much.

I'm not fully understanding the question, so this may not be the answer you are looking for, Bonnie...sorry. :

Thanks for your response. Can I search those two topics together do you know on Blue Letter Bible? Or do I need to search them separately and then try to compare within the same texts?

Sorry I am not always too clear, I'll try rephrasing my question.

Since you and Biblereader were both pointing to (2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;) as the events prior to Jesus' advent that ushers in The Day of the Lord~

I was taking it apart, looking first at the falling away and wondering how Jesus description in Matthew 24 (Now as to this great falling away, also referred to as the apostasy. Jesus said, “as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be†(Matthew 24:37)NKJ. ) applied as events PRIOR to harpazo.

So when I looked into the Genesis 6 explaination I found the list of precursers that are evidence of this falling away:

*Exploding population (Genesis 6:1) "...men began to multiply on the face of the earth..."
*Sexual perversion (Genesis 6:2) "...the sons of God saw the daughters of men...and they took them wives of all which they chose."
*Demonic activity (Genesis 6:4) "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown."
*Constant evil in the heart of man (Genesis 6:5) ...referred above
*Widespread corruption and violence (Genesis 6:11) "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence."

Most of these precursers are found in our world today, but would you say that all of them are? The demonic activity causing women to bear giants, mighty men of renown? Thanks b.

 

[Vic C.]

I understand now, a bit, I think. So, lets jump down one verse because I believe this is Jesus' point;

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

I'll skip for v.38 for now... it is an interesting verse for perhaps another topic.

It will be people just going about their daily, secular business, not knowing of the wrath that will be upon them one day.

Paul however (IMO) is making a striking point directed at those who claim to be of the faith. The words "falling away" come from the Greek word "apostasia". It's best understood as a falling away, a defection, to forsake or to depart from... the Faith, or the Truth. The word apostasia is used one other time in the NT, here:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2 Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Same Greek word, but the context seems to dictate that the translators come up with the appropriate English. You get the clear meaning of "apostasia" from the overall context.

In Acts, they turn their backs on the teachings of Moses; in the 2Thess 2 verse, they turn their backs on the Truth.

So Jesus is saying His return will come a a thief in the night for those unaware.

Paul is giving us (those who won't be caught off guard) a view of two things that will happen before His return. Remember, the Thessalonican believers were troubled by some false teaching that caused them to believe they "missed the boat". (That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,) (Let no man deceive you by any means

Someone, it seems, passed some words or letters to them that The Day has come. Paul says, Na ah! There are things to come before That Day and our Gathering with Him.

LOL, does that help? :smt102

 

[Biblereader]

Widespread corruption and violence (Genesis 6:11) "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence."

It's steadily getting worse, and true Christians need to get strong in the Lord, and focus entirely on God and His Holy Word.

Look in 2 Tim: 1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Also in Isaiah: 13: Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.
And, in Isaiah: 20: Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

And, in Hosea: My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

The lack of knowledge can be linked, to people not knowing which bible to read, or do they read it at all, therefore, anyone can tell them anything, and they believe it, without finding out, in the bible, if it's true.
There has been an increase in all of the things in 2 Timothy, too, in the past decade.

 

[sheshisown]

Hi youse guys~

Yes, and amen, I agree with your exegesis, and thank God for the further word which enlightens His word. 8-)

Also, may I ask since you both seem to be stating that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the only precurser to the rapture.

Biblereader said; Being caught up to be with the Lord forever won't happen until that man of sin, the son of perdition, is REVEALED.

And Vic agreed;
You see, all I'm "looking" for are the events that are to come before God's Wrath. Biblereader posted them above.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1: Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
AND
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

It will be people just going about their daily, secular business, not knowing of the wrath that will be upon them one day.

So what Jesus referred to in Matthew is no more than the marrying and giving away in marriage, meaning people just doing the common things of life without taking notice of the times about them? The days of Noah also had unions between the sons of God and the daughters of men which brought about a race of men which were renown.

(Genesis 6:4) "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown."

Wouldn't we need to see this precurser as well before the rapture? Those who have a name among men, through the idea of definite and conspicuous position~ gaining them reputation, fame, and glory. These days there are no men of renown that I can note, rather, those men who hold a distinct and prominent possition among humanity worldwide today are decievers displaying weak characters, so much so, that even the unsaved mock their authority and knowledge.

Would you say this "sign" is still to be seen before the rapture? The Pre-Tribulation teaching never addresses this, and I have often wondered why not?

Thanks for any understanding you can share with me~ love in our Lord to you both. bonnie