Who Is the Son of Perdition?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I'll start with 2 Thessalonians 1:4-2:12 which reads:

4 We also take special pride in you among all the called ones of God, because of the endurance and faith that you’ve shown through all the persecutions and difficulties that you’ve been enduring. 5 So, the righteous judgment of God is being revealed in that you’re being counted worthy of the Kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.6 And it’s a righteous thing for God to repay those who are persecuting you by crushing them, 7 while providing relief to you who are suffering this persecution (and to us also) when the Lord Jesus is revealed in the sky with his powerful messengers 8 in a flaming fire. Then he’ll bring vengeance upon all those who don’t know God and those who aren’t obeying the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 [His] justice will repay them with age-long ruin away from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his strength. 10 [He will do this] when he comes to be glorified among his Holy Ones and to be marveled at by all you who believe, because you put faith in the testimony we gave in that day.11 We’re also always praying this for you: That our God may count you worthy of the calling and fulfill upon you all [His] good intentions and powerful deeds of faith, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you (and you in him), through the loving care of our God and of the Lord Jesus, the Anointed One.
1 However, brothers; regarding the appearance of our Lord Jesus the Anointed One and our being gathered to him… we urge you 2 not to quickly lose hope, or to be disturbed by [something from the] spirit, or by words, or [by things] in a letter that may have come through us, indicating that the Lord’s Day has arrived. 3 Don’t allow anyone to mislead you in any way; because, [that day] won’t come until after there has been a great turning away and a revealing of the lawless man… the son of destruction. 4 For, he opposes and puts himself higher than all others that are called gods or things of worship, and he seats himself in the Holy Place (gr. Naos) of The God where he publicly displays himself as being a god.
5 Don’t you remember that I used to tell you these things while I was still with you?6 So, now you know what’s holding everything up… his being revealed in his appointed time. 7 Indeed, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; for, this is the one who is holding everything back until he's no longer in our midst. 8 But when the Lord Jesus arrives and the lawless one is revealed, he'll do away with him by the breath from his mouth and bring him to nothing.9 This one comes through the works of the Opposer with great powers, lying signs, false wonders, 10 and every sort of deceit of the unrighteous… those who will perish for not loving the truth that they received, which would have saved them! 11 And on account of this, The God is leading them astray so they can believe what is false, 12 and so that all those who don’t believe the truth but prefer unrighteousness, may be [proven guilty].

In the above text Paul begins by championing the endurance and faith the Thessalonions exhibited through their persecutions. He tells them that God would repay the ones persecuting them and at the same time would provide the Thessalonians saints with relief. This would all happen when Jesus was to be revealed in glory taking vengeance on those that aren't obeying the gospel of Christ.
In chp 2 Paul then clarifies some things about the appearance of Jesus discussed in chp 1. He tells the Thessalonians that there are some signs to look for before this appearance occurs. He told them there would be a great turning away from the faith and that the man of sin/lawless one would be revealed first. This Man of Sin was said to be one that would seat himself in the holy place of God and claim the status of a god for himself. This "Lawless One" is said to be holding the revealing of Jesus and is said to have been already mysteriously at work holding everything back at the time of Paul's writing. This "Lawless One" according to verse 7, was in the midst of the brethren but apparently hidden or working in secret at opposing the truth of the gospel. Once this "Lawless One" was no longer in the midst of the brethren, it appears that that would clear the way for Jesus to be revealed and Jesus would arrive at the revelation of the "Lawless One" to do away with him and bring him to nothing. This entity is said to have been empowered not by God but instead by the Satan to apparently stand against the gospel and deceive the elect.

Who this "Lawless One" is or was is debateble. Many think it is an endtime antichrist while others claim it was a 1st century figure like Nero or Titus, while others stand by the idea that it represents the Papacy. Another option that is not discussed is the idea that this individual is not an individual but rather is the personification of 1st century Judaizers that had at one time believed in Jesus but fell away from that faith and were subsequently attempting to corrupt the saints by speaking against Jesus being the Christ and exhaulting their religion and the Temple that was its religious centerpiece. These lawless ones could have been saved had they held to the truth of the gospel but instead they loved what was false and God then allowed them to be led astray to face His judgement at the revealing of Jesus, His Anointed.

So my contention is that it is just as likely if not more likely that the "Lawless One" was representative of these individuals or that movement that was to be the great falling away and collectively they were the Lawless One/son of perdition, etc. that had to be revealed and purged from Jesus' body before Jesus himself would be revealed to gather his elect and take vengeance on those that persecuted His body.

 

[JLB]

In the above text Paul begins by championing the endurance and faith the Thessalonions exhibited through their persecutions. He tells them that God would repay the ones persecuting them and at the same time would provide the Thessalonians saints with relief.

So in Paul's first letter, which he reiterates in his second letter, he is just speaking to the Thessalonian Church.

Which would mean the following verse's concerning the Coming of The Lord and the resurrection of the dead, were only meant for just the Church at Thessolinica, and not "those who are His", as Paul indicated.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.


By your "theory", that Paul's letter was just addressing only the Thessalonian Church, "the relief" you mentioned was only meant for just them and doesn't include the entire Church who will be alive at His Coming.

Is this what you are having us to believe?


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

By your "theory", that Paul's letter was just addressing only the Thessalonian Church, "the relief" you mentioned was only meant for just them and doesn't include the entire Church who will be alive at His Coming.

Huh? How do you get this from anything I wrote without reaching for something to create a dilemma that does not exist? Whether purposely are not, you are building a strawman which can become an easy target to focus on while at the same time getting away from the real point up for discussion.

So in Paul's first letter, which he reiterates in his second letter, he is just speaking to the Thessalonian Church. Which would mean the following verse's concerning the Coming of The Lord and the resurrection of the dead, were only meant for just the Church at Thessolinica, and not "those who are His", as Paul indicated.

Stop it! He was writting to the Thessalonian brethren about an issue that would impact not just them! The coming of the Lord was something the entire body of 1st century believers looked forward to, discussed, were warned to be prepared for, etc. This subject was not a new subject Paul made up and shared exclusively with the Thessalonians. It was a subject, however, that they needed to get a better understanding of and Paul felt compelled to try bring some clarity to.

 

[JLB]

By your "theory", that Paul's letter was just addressing only the Thessalonian Church, "the relief" you mentioned was only meant for just them and doesn't include the entire Church who will be alive at His Coming.

Huh? How do you get this from anything I wrote without reaching for something to create a dilemma that does not exist? Whether purposely are not, you are building a strawman which can become an easy target to focus on while at the same time getting away from the real point up for discussion.

So in Paul's first letter, which he reiterates in his second letter, he is just speaking to the Thessalonian Church. Which would mean the following verse's concerning the Coming of The Lord and the resurrection of the dead, were only meant for just the Church at Thessolinica, and not "those who are His", as Paul indicated.

Stop it! He was writting to the Thessalonian brethren about an issue that would impact not just them! The coming of the Lord was something the entire body of 1st century believers looked forward to, discussed, were warned to be prepared for, etc. This subject was not a new subject Paul made up and shared exclusively with the Thessalonians. It was a subject, however, that they needed to get a better understanding of and Paul felt compelled to try bring some clarity to.

Ok, so the letter to the Church of the Thessalonians about the Coming of The Lord and His Gathering of His people at the Resurrection of the dead, was just for the first century Christians, and doesn't pertain to Christians who die after the First Century?

Is that what you are teaching?


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Ok, so the letter to the Church of the Thessalonians about the Coming of The Lord and His Gathering of His people at the Resurrection of the dead, was just for the first century Christians, and doesn't pertain to Christians who die after the First Century? Is that what you are teaching?

Pretty much. Readers today can learn lessons from reading it, but applying their situation to our lives and usurping their promises and expectations that was for them may in fact be a exercise in futility for us. I know this claim is tough to swallow, BUT, if we open our hearts to what is actually written and taught as opposed to what our desires are and the faith that comes from our preconceptions yields, what we may realize is that our faith could use some fine tuning and is in need of a better application.

Consider the possibilty that when Jesus said he was coming soon and that the generation that he was a part of would see him return, he actaully meant what he said and did what he said he'd do. What would that mean for us who have been born post his return? What is our hope for life beyond this world of sin and death we were don't into? Additionally, we must examine ourselves and ask the hard questions of ourselves like; do we reject the idea of Jesus' return having already occurrd based on the scriptures or for selfish reasons that includes an overinflated view of what our reward and standing in the Kingdom of God should be.

 

[JLB]

Pretty much. Readers today can learn lessons from reading it, but applying their situation to our lives and usurping their promises and expectations that was for them may in fact be a exercise in futility for us.

Ok, so can you show me when the "cut off" date is to the promises of the Resurrection of the dead?


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Ok, so can you show me when the "cut off" date is to the promises of the Resurrection of the dead?

Jesus' coming was to be the "cut off" date. This coming was said to be a coming that would occur in Jesus' generation's lifetime. At his coming, judgment and wrath would be administered and he would gather his elect, both the living and the dead, whom he'd resurrect and reward with lasting life and a place in his kingdom.

Additionally, we can also read that there's to come a time when there will be a resurrection of all people, not just Jesus' saints. John tells us that there will be a resurrection of both the just (not necessarily saints BTW) and the unjust. The just will be rewarded with lasting life (no mention of Kingdom authority as with the saints) while the unjust will be raised to face judgment and lasting destruction.
Based on what was written concerning the resurrection(s), I currently believe that there was to be at least 2 resurrections. The first would be that of the saints that died or were murdered in Christ during the trying times of the mid 1st century (Revelation 20:4-6) and I believe that was to occur during the generation of Jesus' and his apostle's lifetimes. The second resurrection is still a future event that WE can look forward to and is where our hopes are tied to. It is the same resurrection Job spoke of in Job 14, the very one sang about by Samuel's mother Hannah in 1 Samuel 2:6, and one Mary and Martha looked forward to and spoke of in John 11:24!

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So my contention is that it is just as likely if not more likely that the "Lawless One" was representative of these individuals or that movement that was to be the great falling away and collectively they were the Lawless One/son of perdition, etc. that had to be revealed and purged from Jesus' body before Jesus himself would be revealed to gather his elect and take vengeance on those that persecuted His body.

Can some provide me some reasons why the idea that the SOn of Perdition cannot be the Judiazing backsliders that denied that Jesus was the Christ that were mentioned in the NT?

 

[JLB]

Jesus' coming was to be the "cut off" date.

Yes, that is what the scriptures teach.

All of those who are His will be resurrected when He comes.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Christ the firstfruits,

afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

All will be resurrected at His Coming.

There is no scripture to validate a resurrection of the first century Christians then later another resurrection of those after the first century.

Christ was resurrected from the dead and was given a body that will never die, like those who are His will be resurrected from the dead at His Coming at the end of the age.

You have no scripture to validate your claim.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So my contention is that it is just as likely if not more likely that the "Lawless One" was representative of these individuals or that movement that was to be the great falling away and collectively they were the Lawless One/son of perdition, etc. that had to be revealed and purged from Jesus' body before Jesus himself would be revealed to gather his elect and take vengeance on those that persecuted His body.

Can some provide me some reasons why the idea that the SOn of Perdition cannot be the Judiazing backsliders that denied that Jesus was the Christ that were mentioned in the NT?

The man of sin is one person who will be destroyed by the brightness of His Coming!

That would one reason.


JLB

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Yes, that is what the scriptures teach. All of those who are His will be resurrected when He comes.

On this we agree. The scripture definately seems to teach this.

There is no scripture to validate a resurrection of the first century Christians then later another resurrection of those after the first century.

What about Revelation 20:4-6? It talks about a 1st resurrection.

You have no scripture to validate your claim.

You say that despite the fact that a attached scripture to the claims that I made. Interesting that you missed that............

My claim is that Jesus said he was coming back and that both he and his disciples taught and expected that return to be within their generation's lifetime. Myself, and many others have provided tons of scripture to back this claim on various occasions. What I also claim is that for the Word to be true, Jesus would have had to keep his promise of coming again, therefore, if we are to believe the Word, Jesus came back already and did what he said he would do. I went on to say that the hope of all mankind is a resurrection on the "Last Day". That has been the hope since the most ancient of days and it is talked about in various scriptures like the ones I listed in my previous post as well as other texts like John 5:28.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The man of sin is one person who will be destroyed by the brightness of His Coming!

Weren't those backsliding Judiazers that denied the Christ destroyed way back in the 1st century?

 

[JLB]

My claim is that Jesus said he was coming back and that both he and his disciples taught and expected that return to be within their generation's lifetime.

That seems to be your claim.

What about Revelation 20:4-6? It talks about a 1st resurrection.

What about it?

 

[JLB]

Weren't those backsliding Judiazers that denied the Christ destroyed way back in the 1st century?

Show me which scripture you are referring to.

I believe history records that The Romans killed millions.

Were there any in-particular that you are referring to?


JLB

 

[veryberry]

According to John 17: 12 AKJ, Judas Isacrat is THE son of perdition, not A son of perdition. The antichrist will have that spirit of Judas Isacrat.

 

[JLB]

According to John 17: 12 AKJ, Judas Isacrat is THE son of perdition, not A son of perdition. The antichrist will have that spirit of Judas Isacrat.

The son of perdition is known by several names in 2 Thessalonians 2.

He will exalt himself as God in the last Temple, while working signs and wonders.

 

[reba]

Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Is the 'son of perdition' one guy?

 

[JLB]

Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



Is the 'son of perdition' one guy?

The son of perdition, the man of sin, the lawless one are all references to one person in 2 Thessalonians 2.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Is the 'son of perdition' one guy?

The term Son of Perdition is a Hebrew idiom or a way of expressing that the Son of Perdition, who ever he may be will never be saved.

 

[reba]

Maybe i was not clear...

Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus is talking about Judas here agreed ?

2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Is this verse speaking of Judas?