Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly.

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.

 

[electedbyHim]

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly.

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Can you clarify this statement further?

I believe I understand what you are saying.

 

[onlysaved]

Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:6

For when we [The elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

These verses tells us something about the elect ! First that by nature we are ungodly, children of wrath as others Eph 2:3

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Amen being children of wrath by nature as others is just another way of saying, that we were ungodly.

But one of the Great Gospel doctrines is described in Rom 4:5 is that God justifieth the ungodly

Now , get this, The elect are Justified before God. by the obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ [Rom 5: 18-19] while we are dead in

trespasses and sins, while we are by nature children of wrath even as others, and while by lifestyle, ungodly. While we the elect are in this very sinful condition, that we are Justified by Jesus Christ blood and clothed in His imputed righteousness, even though we dont know it at the Time, but God knows it , because He is the one who did it.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

You see, most false teachers today think that Rom 8 :33 applies to post conversion, but it also applies to pre conversion, for God Justifieth the ungodly, before they are converted..

Thats why its of grace Titus 3:7

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Its by grace because of the sinful condition we are in by nature when we are Justified before God.

I think that's a stretch but since God knows out hearts and what we will do. Whether we are justified before or after conversion doesn't really matter one bit. What is important is that.
God justifies us on the basis of faith in His Son, and that not of ourselves it is a gift from God.

I save the term "false teacher" for those who teach teach wrongly about the nature of God and the person and mission of Christ.
The manner of how the elect become that way means nothing to me and I consider it as something not worth quarreling about.

 

[electedbyHim]

Just a reminder that you have to be Reformed/Calvinist to post in this forum

 

[brightfame52]

Can you clarify this statement further?

I believe I understand what you are saying.

Basically they are Justified before God, by the death of Christ before they become believers, even from the womb

 

[brightfame52]

onlysaved

I think that's a stretch but since God knows out hearts and what we will do.

Justification b4 God based on Christs finished work, has absolutely nothing to do with what a person will do or wont do, nothing

 

[electedbyHim]

Basically they are Justified before God, by the death of Christ before they become believers, even from the womb

I believe I can agree with that given our election and predestination.

Logically it flows.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe I can agree with that given our election and predestination.

Logically it flows.

I believe Rom 5:10 supports that as well
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by Faith

Justification by Faith is in two senses, First and foremost Its Justification by the Faith / Faithfulness of Jesus Christ. For its by this Faith alone how The elect obtain Justification before God, by the Blood and obedience of Jesus Christ, for all whom He died in their place and stead..

Rom 5:9,18-19

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood ,to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time. Thats who Justified by His blood.

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men[of all time] to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [of all time] unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Again no mention of our Faith as a securing means of Justification unto Life or being made righteous, but solely the obedience and righteousness of One Jesus Christ..

This constitutes the Faith / faithfulness of Jesus Christ. Therefore its written The Faith of Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16,20

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Faithfulness Jesus Christ Loved the elect and gave himself for them.

Then in a secondary sense and premised on the First and foremost, the elect sinner is Justified consciously, by the regenerating work of the Holy Ghost, because of their previous justification by the work of Christ, they now have that revealed to them by God the Holy Ghost through the Gospel. But be careful not to confuse the receiving experientially the status of Justification before God [by the work of Christ] with the experiential aspect of conscience Justification by the work of the Holy Ghost upon and in the already Justified before God sinner.. 1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Now, though the work of the Holy Ghost is extremely Important and needed for the enjoyment of the work of Christ in the elects behalf, His blessed work should never be on the same level or above the Justifying work of the Son of God upon the cross. to do so leads to heresy and anti Christ teaching.

For it was not the Work of the Holy Ghost to die in the place of elect sinners for 1 Cor 15:3

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

This scripture teaches Christ died for our [the elect] sins, but not a word about the Holy Ghost dying for the sins of the elect.

Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him [Jesus Christ] the iniquity of us all.

Here, the iniquities of the elect were laid upon him [Jesus Christ] and not the Holy Ghost.

Rom 5: 9 declares Having been Justified [declared righteous] by the blood of Jesus Christ, but not a word about being Justified by the work of the Holy Ghost blood.

Finally Jesus states that the Holy Ghost will not speak of Himself [ draw attention to Himself] but should Glorify Him Jn 16:13-14

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine [My accomplishment], and shall shew it unto you.

He shall receive of the finished accomplished Justification of Gods elect through Jesus Christ and on their behalf, and shew [ reveal] it to them.

To confuse or mix the Two types of Justification, Legal and experiential[conscious] is fatal. May God lead us into truth

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:1

Being Justified by Faith !

What does this mean ? For many deceivers are out in the world and have so misapplied this verse to make it say something that it really does not say or mean, and that is that one is saved or Justified before God because of their Faith, meaning their act of believing, that their act of believing is the causative reason of their Justification before God ! Let me say without hesitation that this teaching is false in that its against the True basis of Justification, and that namely is the Lord Jesus Christ. Against His accomplishment on the cross Its the blood of Jesus Christ and the grace of God that Justifies sinners, and i will prove this from scriptures. Also keep in mind, that Faith is a noun not a verb as in something we do, but its a substance.

Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe ,Thats works.

And even more so, Paul cannot contradict his own teaching in other portions of Gods word as to the True source of Justification before God! First of all Paul teaches that the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus Christ Rom 5:9a

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul clearly teaches that Justification is by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

So Paul declares that the elect having been Justified by Christ blood, shall be delivered from the wrath to come.

2ndly, Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Christ] Justification comes upon all men, that is, all men in Him at the time of His righteous act observe Rom 5:18b

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

This reads in exact contrast with the results of the one who made offence [ Adam] resulting in Gods condemnation and Judgment. For each of the heads brought about a Divine Judicial verdict on all those whom they represented. By the righteousness or righteous act of Jesus Christ, meaning His death, the free gift of Justification of life came upon [ not was offered or made available] but came upon all men [ in Christ at the time , his seed, as Adam had a seed in him] unto Justification of life.

The Justification unto life by the right act of one, called down the free Gift of Justification of life.

Thats why Paul wrote earlier in Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The redemption that is in Christ Jesus, again pointing to His redeeming blood and or death.

So we know Paul did not mean in Rom 5:1 that the elect are Justified by their act of believing or Faith, because it again contradicts Paul's overall teaching of this subject, and would make void the accomplishment of the redeeming death and blood of Jesus Christ. And thats what satan and his messengers desire to do, to take the crown from Jesus head, and place it upon the head of man.

 

[brightfame52]

So, so far in exposing the False teaching that the elect are saved or Justified because of their act of Faith or believing. We see that contradicts other clear teaching of paul that #1, the elect are Justified by the blood of Jesus christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

That is when He bore their sins as prophesied Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [shed His blood]

2ndly we find that Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one [ Jesus Christ] Justification came upon all men, not offered, not made available, but Sovereignly came upon them Rom 5:18

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now show me in this verse where it says that Justification of life came upon all men because they had faith ?

Thirdly, Paul teaches in vs 19 of Romans 5:19 that by the obedience of one, many shall be made righteous ..

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now where does it say that by their faith shall many be made righteous ? Paul says by the obedience of one many shall be made righteous. Now who is that one ?

 

[brightfame52]

Paul then goes on to write that the elect are Justified by Grace Titus 3:7

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

And this is freely, without cause of us, Just being of the election of grace. Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [blood] that is in Christ Jesus:

The word freely here is the greek word:

dōrean: which means:

freely, undeservedly and is translated without a cause as here:

Jn 15:25

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.


Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect.

Eph 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

In light of these scriptures, we continue to expose the false teaching of them who oppose Christ followers, who would take the crown from Jesus head and place it upon their own.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified before believing !

The False teachers of today have turned what is the evidence of Justification into a condition to get salvation or Justification.

When the fact of the matter is, the elect are Justified before they believe, which is understood if we consider Rom 4:5

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Notice, but believeth on Him that Justifieth the Ungodly !

The scripture does not term any who are believers Ungodly, we have our names from post conversion, such as saints, living stones, babes in Christ, beloved, holy brethren and ect, but seeing here Paul writes that God Justifieth the Ungodly, then believers are Justified before believing.

You see their [ the elect] believing did not Justify them, but Christ Justified many by baring their sins Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He [ Jesus Christ] in taking away the sin of the elect made us righteous, and this was our Justification.

Jn 1:29

29The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


Rom 5:8

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christ death Justified us [ the elect] while we were sinners, ungodly.

This was before we believed, for I was Justified by Christ death in 33 ad, before I was manifested [ born] in 1957.

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

reconciliation and Justification are of the same sort, acceptance with God in Favor, and yet this occurred while we were sinners, before we believed, how ? by the death of His Son.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification before God is based upon solely the imputed righteousness of Christ, which righteousness is freely laid to the account of all the members of the body of Christ, of the sheepfold, of all whom Christ died. They [the elect] are before the Tribunal of God, declared righteous, Justified, based upon Christ obedience unto death Phil 2:8

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now that the foundation has been laid, God builds upon that, and now it is time for Justification by Faith or before the consciousness of those who have been declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Christ, that being done, we now have the imparted righteousness of Christ.1

 

[tdidymas]

Before I make comment on some of the things you said, I'd like to let you know that I agree with most of what you say here, that we are forensically justified by the blood of Christ. But also, Paul wrote that we are justified by grace and by faith. But the question at hand is, when exactly are we justified? I hope this explanation will shed some light on the matter.

When speaking of justification and attempting to understand exactly when that happens, we have to acknowledge that there is a transition. John 3:36 clearly states that the believer has eternal life, and the unbeliever doesn't. This means that before my conversion (living by faith), I was an unbeliever and still under God's wrath. When I was told that I was on the road to hell, I believed it because my life exhibited slavery to sin. Therefore, my feeling of being guilty before God and condemned was the truth, and the Holy Spirit was convicting me of it.

Then there was a transition, from my being an unbeliever to being a believer. After I began believing in Christ, I learned that I was justified before God, in which Rom. 5:1 says I'm "justified by faith." So then, before conversion I am NOT justified, and after conversion I AM justified. So when exactly does this justification happen?

Obviously, it is a free gift (Rom. 3:25), so my faith/believing is a free gift given to me by God. It is the result of being born again. The idea of being born again assumes that before one is born again, there is a condition of not being born again, as it is with all people. We are born again "by the word of God" - meaning that God raised us to life in Christ (Eph. 2:5) when we finally "heard" the gospel and was granted a vision of hope, that we could be forever reconciled to God. Yet perhaps we didn't understand it at the time, but it nevertheless was spiritual reality that we were experiencing.

So then, before regeneration we were like anyone else, "without God in the world" and sinners among whom "no one seeks for God" and "none righteous." Then after regeneration we are cleansed, sanctified, and justified.

Now, if sanctification means that we are set apart (from the world), there has to be some level of sanctification prior to justification, since Paul says he was set apart from his mother's womb. It does not mean that he was born again at the time he was set apart, because only believers are born again and justified. It's my view that God prepares the elect to receive the gospel prior to their receiving it. But preparation doesn't mean they are regenerated at the time of preparation.

So the point of all this is that whether one is justified before belief or after hardly makes a difference, because justification and faith are so tied together that you can't have one without the other in reality. The logical sequence is this: sanctified, ears opened to hear the gospel (born again), believed, justified. So if it happens instantaneously, as described in Eph. 2:5, then justification and believing can be said to be simultaneous. Most certainly a believer is justified before knowing he is justified, and is justified by the blood of Christ even if he never knows in this life that he is justified in the sight of God. The fact that a believer believes in Christ shows that he is born of God (1 Jn. 5:1) and is justified.

Now for some comments on certain statements you made:

Note, being Now Justified by His blood, not our Faith + His blood, that's a false Gospel, but by His blood ,to whom is this True of ? Not only the roman believers, but to all the election of grace of all time. Thats who Justified by His blood.

Your formula "Faith + His blood" can't be correct, because faith in Christ is a gift of God. Furthermore, being justified by Christ's blood does not mean that nothing else is included in it. Certainly we are "justified by faith" (Rom. 5:1). So one could easily say that being justified by the blood of Christ means the same thing as being justified by faith in the blood of Christ.

Being Justified by Faith !

What does this mean ? For many deceivers are out in the world and have so misapplied this verse to make it say something that it really does not say or mean, and that is that one is saved or Justified before God because of their Faith, meaning their act of believing, that their act of believing is the causative reason of their Justification before God ! Let me say without hesitation that this teaching is false in that its against the True basis of Justification, and that namely is the Lord Jesus Christ. Against His accomplishment on the cross Its the blood of Jesus Christ and the grace of God that Justifies sinners, and i will prove this from scriptures. Also keep in mind, that Faith is a noun not a verb as in something we do, but its a substance.

I never let the devil have his corrupt definitions of critical words. Many people do think that believing is something they do. But the Bible does not say that. Now it does give "believe" as a command. Jesus said, "repent and believe the gospel." It is a natural presumption to think that both repenting and believing are something one does because it's commanded. But we know by the whole of the NT that the ability to repent from sin and believe in the gospel is a gift from God.

I do understand that you are trying to dispel the bad idea that God acts with salvation as a response to someone who "decides to believe." In some way, a person decides to believe - from his own perspective. But a person cannot decide to believe what he doesn't believe. If I don't believe I can clear a high jump of 7 feet, I might try it, but I can't "decide to believe" it (just a simple analogy). 2 Cor. 2:16 is Paul's clear teaching that a person who doesn't believe in Jesus cannot decide to believe, since he cannot understand the spiritual truth of the gospel. So when a person "decides" to believe, in fact he is already believing what he decides to believe. This is what the command to believe is about. It is obeyed by those born of God (1 Jn. 5:1), and those not born of God don't.

But faith, being a noun, is simply the description of the action of believing. There is always action the faith drives. If someone merely claims to believe, but there is no resulting righteous action that follows, then their "faith is dead," according to James.

Let me start off by saying, what Paul does not mean here, and that is, Paul is not teaching that one is Justified [before God] by or because of their act of Faith, since #1, Faith is a noun in this verse and if we use the verb believing, then we are saying that God Justified because of something I did, which was believe ,Thats works.

But Rom. 5:1 and 3:28 says we are justified by faith. It seems to me that regardless of whether we are justified before believing or after doesn't make a pea of difference, because the doctrine of justification by faith alone edifies only believers, not unbelievers. Due to Eph. 2:1-10, 1 Jn. 5:1, and elsewhere, the fact of our believing in Christ (the kind of believing in which we are willing to be followers of Him) is proof positive that we are born of God, have received His mercy, and are justified.

dōrean: which means:

freely, undeservedly and is translated without a cause as here:

Jn 15:25

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

Redemption is through His blood, of which His Grace operates towards the elect.

"Without a cause" doesn't mean without any cause whatsoever (as if were by random chance or whimsical arbitration). When Jesus said "they hated Me without a cause," he is talking about without JUST cause. Certainly they had their own reasons to hate Christ, and it was for the satanic cause of rebellion against God.

There are many other places where the context qualifies a word. Other examples: "Judge not..." means don't judge unrighteously. "Do not kill" means don't kill unrighteously (that is, murder). "Pride goeth before destruction" is talking about evil pride, or an inflated ego. So this context of "they hated Me without cause" means without a righteous or just cause, meaning their cause to hate could never be justified with God.

The scripture does not term any who are believers Ungodly, we have our names from post conversion, such as saints, living stones, babes in Christ, beloved, holy brethren and ect, but seeing here Paul writes that God Justifieth the Ungodly, then believers are Justified before believing.

"God justifieth the ungodly" means that after a person is regenerated and they have faith in Christ, they are justified, since we are "justified by faith." There are other ways of saying it, such as:
God has justified in faith those who were once unbelievers
God justifies the ungodly by giving them faith in Christ
From this you should be able to see that there is not merely one way to interpret this verse.

In conclusion, there is something we can certainly know from scripture and experience: if a person believes in Jesus, that person can know for certain he is justified in God's sight. And inversely, if a person doesn't believe in Christ, they cannot possibly know whether they are justified or not. So the scripture stands firmly, which says, "the one who believes (in Jesus) has eternal life; but the one who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by Faith or before the consciousness of those who have been declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Christ, that being done, we now have the imparted righteousness of Christ.

And so we have for all who have had Christ righteousness imputed to them, they also will in regeneration have it imparted to them. This is why Paul says that Christ of God has been made unto us sanctification. 1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This is also called sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And of course sanctification of the Spirit results in belief of the Truth !

All for whom Christ died will sometime in their life partake of the imparted righteousness of Christ from regeneration, for Christ as our Saviour pours Him[The Holy Ghost] out unto all He has redeemed through His death Titus 3:5-7

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


6Which he shed[ pour out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Please, note, If Jesus Christ is ones Saviour, He will ensure our regeneration and renewing vs 5.

The Holy Ghost is bound by the covenant of Grace or redemption to impart Christ righteousness to all for whom He did die, and it is through His Divine work [ the Holy Ghost] that the redeemed one can believe on Christ and experience Justification by Faith. Faith has been given by the Holy Ghost, as it is one of His fruits [ Gal 5:22] or evidences that He has given the chosen one to partake experientially of the life of their risen Saviour.

It is for this reason that the Faith the elect have to believe is called the faith of Christ, because He gives all those for whom He died, His own Faith [ Gal 2:20], through regeneration of the Holy Spirit, in order that all His members of His body shall believe in Him, we believe in Him because of imparted righteousness. 2

 

[brightfame52]

tdidymas

This means that before my conversion (living by faith), I was an unbeliever and still under God's wrath.

So then you dont believe Christs death alone, putting away their sins, satisfying the Justice of God, appeased Gods wrath ? And so until they believe Gods wrath for them is not appeased, correct ?

 

[electedbyHim]

Before I make comment on some of the things you said, I'd like to let you know that I agree with most of what you say here, that we are forensically justified by the blood of Christ. But also, Paul wrote that we are justified by grace and by faith. But the question at hand is, when exactly are we justified? I hope this explanation will shed some light on the matter.

When speaking of justification and attempting to understand exactly when that happens, we have to acknowledge that there is a transition. John 3:36 clearly states that the believer has eternal life, and the unbeliever doesn't. This means that before my conversion (living by faith), I was an unbeliever and still under God's wrath. When I was told that I was on the road to hell, I believed it because my life exhibited slavery to sin. Therefore, my feeling of being guilty before God and condemned was the truth, and the Holy Spirit was convicting me of it.

Then there was a transition, from my being an unbeliever to being a believer. After I began believing in Christ, I learned that I was justified before God, in which Rom. 5:1 says I'm "justified by faith." So then, before conversion I am NOT justified, and after conversion I AM justified. So when exactly does this justification happen?

Obviously, it is a free gift (Rom. 3:25), so my faith/believing is a free gift given to me by God. It is the result of being born again. The idea of being born again assumes that before one is born again, there is a condition of not being born again, as it is with all people. We are born again "by the word of God" - meaning that God raised us to life in Christ (Eph. 2:5) when we finally "heard" the gospel and was granted a vision of hope, that we could be forever reconciled to God. Yet perhaps we didn't understand it at the time, but it nevertheless was spiritual reality that we were experiencing.

So then, before regeneration we were like anyone else, "without God in the world" and sinners among whom "no one seeks for God" and "none righteous." Then after regeneration we are cleansed, sanctified, and justified.

Now, if sanctification means that we are set apart (from the world), there has to be some level of sanctification prior to justification, since Paul says he was set apart from his mother's womb. It does not mean that he was born again at the time he was set apart, because only believers are born again and justified. It's my view that God prepares the elect to receive the gospel prior to their receiving it. But preparation doesn't mean they are regenerated at the time of preparation.

So the point of all this is that whether one is justified before belief or after hardly makes a difference, because justification and faith are so tied together that you can't have one without the other in reality. The logical sequence is this: sanctified, ears opened to hear the gospel (born again), believed, justified. So if it happens instantaneously, as described in Eph. 2:5, then justification and believing can be said to be simultaneous. Most certainly a believer is justified before knowing he is justified, and is justified by the blood of Christ even if he never knows in this life that he is justified in the sight of God. The fact that a believer believes in Christ shows that he is born of God (1 Jn. 5:1) and is justified.

Now for some comments on certain statements you made:


Your formula "Faith + His blood" can't be correct, because faith in Christ is a gift of God. Furthermore, being justified by Christ's blood does not mean that nothing else is included in it. Certainly we are "justified by faith" (Rom. 5:1). So one could easily say that being justified by the blood of Christ means the same thing as being justified by faith in the blood of Christ.



I never let the devil have his corrupt definitions of critical words. Many people do think that believing is something they do. But the Bible does not say that. Now it does give "believe" as a command. Jesus said, "repent and believe the gospel." It is a natural presumption to think that both repenting and believing are something one does because it's commanded. But we know by the whole of the NT that the ability to repent from sin and believe in the gospel is a gift from God.

I do understand that you are trying to dispel the bad idea that God acts with salvation as a response to someone who "decides to believe." In some way, a person decides to believe - from his own perspective. But a person cannot decide to believe what he doesn't believe. If I don't believe I can clear a high jump of 7 feet, I might try it, but I can't "decide to believe" it (just a simple analogy). 2 Cor. 2:16 is Paul's clear teaching that a person who doesn't believe in Jesus cannot decide to believe, since he cannot understand the spiritual truth of the gospel. So when a person "decides" to believe, in fact he is already believing what he decides to believe. This is what the command to believe is about. It is obeyed by those born of God (1 Jn. 5:1), and those not born of God don't.

But faith, being a noun, is simply the description of the action of believing. There is always action the faith drives. If someone merely claims to believe, but there is no resulting righteous action that follows, then their "faith is dead," according to James.



But Rom. 5:1 and 3:28 says we are justified by faith. It seems to me that regardless of whether we are justified before believing or after doesn't make a pea of difference, because the doctrine of justification by faith alone edifies only believers, not unbelievers. Due to Eph. 2:1-10, 1 Jn. 5:1, and elsewhere, the fact of our believing in Christ (the kind of believing in which we are willing to be followers of Him) is proof positive that we are born of God, have received His mercy, and are justified.



"Without a cause" doesn't mean without any cause whatsoever (as if were by random chance or whimsical arbitration). When Jesus said "they hated Me without a cause," he is talking about without JUST cause. Certainly they had their own reasons to hate Christ, and it was for the satanic cause of rebellion against God.

There are many other places where the context qualifies a word. Other examples: "Judge not..." means don't judge unrighteously. "Do not kill" means don't kill unrighteously (that is, murder). "Pride goeth before destruction" is talking about evil pride, or an inflated ego. So this context of "they hated Me without cause" means without a righteous or just cause, meaning their cause to hate could never be justified with God.



"God justifieth the ungodly" means that after a person is regenerated and they have faith in Christ, they are justified, since we are "justified by faith." There are other ways of saying it, such as:
God has justified in faith those who were once unbelievers
God justifies the ungodly by giving them faith in Christ
From this you should be able to see that there is not merely one way to interpret this verse.

In conclusion, there is something we can certainly know from scripture and experience: if a person believes in Jesus, that person can know for certain he is justified in God's sight. And inversely, if a person doesn't believe in Christ, they cannot possibly know whether they are justified or not. So the scripture stands firmly, which says, "the one who believes (in Jesus) has eternal life; but the one who does not believe will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

You have to be a Calvinist to reply in this thread.

 

[tdidymas]

You have to be a Calvinist to reply in this thread.

And what exactly is a "Calvinist," if not a person who believes the doctrines of the reformation, and specifically the London Baptist Confession of 1689? Certainly I am not a hyper-calvinist who might believe in such nonsense as preexistence, double-predestination, determinism, and such. So if you don't think I'm a "Calvinist," then be specific about what I wrote that you think proves I'm not a "Calvinist." Agreed?