Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[tdidymas]

tdidymas



So then you dont believe Christs death alone, putting away their sins, satisfying the Justice of God, appeased Gods wrath ? And so until they believe Gods wrath for them is not appeased, correct ?

Redemption is applied to an individual when that person is born again and believes in Christ. Therefore, prior to regeneration when the person is an unbeliever and has no interest in the will of God (dead in trespasses and sins), then they are still under God's wrath, being "by nature" a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). Paul is very explicit about this in Eph. 2 and elsewhere. So then, the answer is Christ's death by itself does not redeem anyone. If Christ's death alone puts away sin, satisfying the justice of God and appeasing God's wrath, then why isn't everyone saved? Christ's death alone putting away sin, satisfying the justice of God and appeasing God's wrath, applies only to those who believe in Him, only to those who are in Christ (Eph. 2:6, 13). Prior to regeneration people are NOT in Christ (Rom. 3:10-18). Therefore, there is a requirement, or proof, that one has indeed been redeemed, and that requirement is faith in Christ. And as I said before, faith is as much a gift of God as the salvation that is brought to people by God's grace (Eph. 2:5-10).

 

[electedbyHim]

And what exactly is a "Calvinist," if not a person who believes the doctrines of the reformation, and specifically the London Baptist Confession of 1689? Certainly I am not a hyper-calvinist who might believe in such nonsense as preexistence, double-predestination, determinism, and such. So if you don't think I'm a "Calvinist," then be specific about what I wrote that you think proves I'm not a "Calvinist." Agreed?

I do not know your doctinal beliefs.

Just letting anyone know that posts in here.

Please do not take it so personal.

these are not my rules.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

Redemption is applied to an individual when that person is born again and believes in Christ. Therefore, prior to regeneration when the person is an unbeliever and has no interest in the will of God (dead in trespasses and sins), then they are still under God's wrath, being "by nature" a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). Paul is very explicit about this in Eph. 2 and elsewhere. So then, the answer is Christ's death by itself does not redeem anyone. If Christ's death alone puts away sin, satisfying the justice of God and appeasing God's wrath, then why isn't everyone saved? Christ's death alone putting away sin, satisfying the justice of God and appeasing God's wrath, applies only to those who believe in Him, only to those who are in Christ (Eph. 2:6, 13). Prior to regeneration people are NOT in Christ (Rom. 3:10-18). Therefore, there is a requirement, or proof, that one has indeed been redeemed, and that requirement is faith in Christ. And as I said before, faith is as much a gift of God as the salvation that is brought to people by God's grace (Eph. 2:5-10).

Okay so your believing appeased Gods wrath actually and not the Death of Christ.

 

[tdidymas]

I do not know your doctinal beliefs.

Just letting anyone know that posts in here.

Please do not take it so personal.

these are not my rules.

Grace and peace to you.

Ok, sorry for the self-defense approach, it looked like you were objecting to my post.

 

[tdidymas]

Okay so your believing appeased Gods wrath actually and not the Death of Christ.

You missed the point, so your response is a straw man. The death of Christ appeases God's wrath only for believers, when they believe. Furthermore, faith pleases God, according to Heb. 11, so it is through faith that salvation and justification is applied to a person. If you read Eph. 2:8-10 carefully and in context, you should be able to see that. John 5:1 states clearly that believers in Christ are born of God, and the inverse becomes obvious, that unbelievers are not born of God. Believing is not the cause of God's wrath appeased, but the death of Christ is the cause (and His suffering, according to Isa. 53). But when that atonement is applied to an individual is when that person believes (and this is logically after regeneration, but is likely simultaneous). Faith in Christ is the proof that one is born of God. Therefore, no unbeliever has any evidence at all from scripture that he is justified. If you claim that the death of Christ alone by itself justifies people without any faith from them involved, then why not say that atheists are justified? Ridiculous!

 

[electedbyHim]

Ok, sorry for the self-defense approach, it looked like you were objecting to my post.

No sir.

 

[brightfame52]

Justifieth the Ungodly !

This is pure grace, that God Justified the elect while ungodly. While they are by nature ungodly, and children of wrath as others, God Justified them based on the work of Christ. The elect as other men are by nature lawbreakers [sinners] and of course sin must be punished, because it is sin, and Gods Justice must punish sin because He is Just and must do justice.

Now if sin has been imputed to Jesus Christ [ for it had to if He died for the elects sins 1 Cor 15:3] and [ 2Cor 5:21], then Justice [ of God] must smite the Person and sin of the Person bearing it, which in the case of Gods elect, is Jesus Christ. [ Note: one did not have to be born to be of Gods elect or for Christ to have died for their sins 1 Cor 15:3]

Once Justice has been satisfied, it is satisfied completely for all those Christ died for, which are the elect. It Justice has been satisfied once and for all, for it is called eternal redemption [ Heb 9:12]

Gods elect have been set free by the redemption in Christ blood for them, for all eternity, no penalty for sin, the broken law in their lives can ever be exacted to them.

For that is the meaning of Christ sacred words It is finished, He obtained eternal redemption for all Gods elect for all time.


Gods Justice for the sins of the elect will never, never, strike again !

The words It is finished, in the greek are in the perfect tense, denoting the once and for all permanency of His sacrifice and its effects.

The God Man, the Lord Jesus Christ has made the Infinite sacrifice for the sins and persons of Gods elect, the world of the elect. Punishment for His elect maximized itself on Christ, and based upon this the elect are set free, Gods righteous character is declared in His being satisfied in His Sons Sacrifice and because of this, The Holy Father can declare [ by grace] and look upon an unholy elect sinner, as Justified before Him, and He himself remains Just in that declaration. Rom 4:5

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So they're by nature, unholy and ungodly men and women, who are Just and righteous in Gods sight because of Christ satisfaction, propitiation to God, for their sins.

Even the thief on the cross, from the day he was born, he was from God's perspective, because of the blood of Christ, Justified eternally. For God Justifies the Ungodly, for Christ sake.2

 

[brightfame52]

tdidymas

You missed the point, so your response is a straw man. The death of Christ appeases God's wrath only for believers, when they believe.

Then you are saying their believing caused Gods wrath to be appeased, not the death of Christ for them. For instance, if Christ died in 33 ad and appeased Gods wrath , propitiated God, and a person whom He died for is born in 1963, has God already been appeased for their sins back in 33ad ? Or lets say that person born in 1963 comes to believe the Gospel in 1983, is it then Gods wrath is appeased for their sins ? If you say it was in 1983 when they believed, then you are saying it was their believing that did it in 1983 and not the death of Christ for them in 33 ad

 

[tdidymas]

tdidymas



Then you are saying their believing caused Gods wrath to be appeased, not the death of Christ for them. For instance, if Christ died in 33 ad and appeased Gods wrath , propitiated God, and a person whom He died for is born in 1963, has God already been appeased for their sins back in 33ad ? Or lets say that person born in 1963 comes to believe the Gospel in 1983, is it then Gods wrath is appeased for their sins ? If you say it was in 1983 when they believed, then you are saying it was their believing that did it in 1983 and not the death of Christ for them in 33 ad

I see your logic, but I disagree with your conclusion. Is God's wrath appeased for everyone regardless of whether they believe or not?

 

[brightfame52]

I see your logic, but I disagree with your conclusion. Is God's wrath appeased for everyone regardless of whether they believe or not?

Suite yourself, but your point of view is dangerous. Also Whoever believes is because Gods wrath had been appeased for them at Calvary, those who never believe is because Gods wrath wasnt appeased for them at Calvary.

 

[tdidymas]

Suite yourself, but your point of view is dangerous. Also Whoever believes is because Gods wrath had been appeased for them at Calvary, those who never believe is because Gods wrath wasnt appeased for them at Calvary.

How is my view dangerous? All you have is an assertion with no argument or evidence. My view is simply that Christ's sacrifice is potentially the atonement for sin for everyone in the world, because it is worthy to cover all sin of all time, based on 1 Jn. 2:2. But according to scripture, few are chosen for effective atonement, and those identified for it are those who believe in Him.

But according to your view, where does it say that anyone not believing in Christ have their sins forgiven? Can you please explain that from John 3:36?

 

[brightfame52]

tdidymas

How is my view dangerous?

I just went over that with you

 

[brightfame52]

God Justifies the Ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Oh what matter of grace is this, that Justifies the ungodly. Not that He Justifieth the repentant, or the believer, though those believing certainly have been Justified, but they were Justified by grace, before believing and while ungodly or while being enemies [by nature] Just as they were reconciled to God, while being enemies, that is ungodly Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

The Truth is one cannot be reconciled to God without being declared Justified before God, being accepted into His Favor. Now we know that no condemned criminal can be accepted into Gods Favor, but that's exactly what reconciled means.

Its the greek word:


Katallasso and means:

1. to reconcile (those who are at variance)
2. return to favour with, be reconciled to one
3. to receive one into favour

Now, no person can be living as God's enemy [by nature] and in His Favor at the same time, unless God has already received a ransom payment for their sins.

That would be The Blood of His Son, and so they would be Justified by His blood Rom 5:9, while they were still by nature Gods enemy ! While they were yet in their life and practice ungodly.

So, therefore, by The blood of Christ, shed for the many, that many, are Justified before God while Ungodly, and hence, God Justifies the Ungodly. before Faith, before any gospel obedience on their part. 2

 

[tdidymas]

tdidymas



I just went over that with you

Nonsense! Explain it. And you evaded my question. I take it that this whole thread is you on a soapbox, because you aren't willing to discuss real interpretation of scripture. So then, should I make like a tree and leave?

 

[brightfame52]

Nonsense! Explain it. And you evaded my question. I take it that this whole thread is you on a soapbox, because you aren't willing to discuss real interpretation of scripture. So then, should I make like a tree and leave?

I went over that with you, if you want more insight read my posts.

 

[tdidymas]

I went over that with you, if you want more insight read my posts.

Since you continue to evade my question, I'm done here.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification of the Many because He bore their iniquities!

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

By His Knowledge [ not by their knowledge] my righteous servant shall justify many, how and why ? For He shall bear their sins or iniquities.

Many in religion today deny this scripture truth of Justification of the many, solely premised on the death of Christ, His dying in their stead, bearing their sins. What they do is wrest the words " by His Knowledge" and impose upon them the meaning, that by and because of the Faith of the sinner, this causes or results in God Justifying the many, hence, swiping away the crown from Christ substitutionary death as being the cause, and placing it on the head of the sinner who is being Justified.

But this verse does not say by their Faith or knowledge of Him, will my righteous servant Justify many, but by His [singular] knowledge, His knowledge of them [ His Sheep] and His knowledge of His Fathers will, He shall Justify many, because He bore their sins. He could not have bore their sins if He did not know them as per Matt 7:23

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He shall Justify many by His obedience unto death Rom 5:18-19


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Not by their obedience shall they be made righteous, but by His obedience, the obedience of one, shall many be made righteous, which is to be Justified as the previous vs 18 points out, Justification of life !

Hence His knowledge of His church members in the present time and dying for them in 33 ad, by that death for them, they were made righteous, they were Justified, because then He bore their sins in His body on the Tree 1 Pet 2:24

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness [or be made righteous as in Rom 5:19]: by whose stripes ye were healed.

To deny this, is denying the accomplishment of the blood of Christ before God in Justifying every soul that He died for.

Scripture clearly declares that we [the elect] were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Who dares denies that those now in the present, who belong to Christ, for whom He died, who denies their Justification before God by His blood in 33 ad ?

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture harmonizing scripture !

1 Cor 2:12-13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us [Gods chosen] of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Of all books in the history of the world, none save the scriptures are spiritual.

Sure, one does not have to be spiritual to read and even study the bible, but in order to understand it, to the least degree, one must be spiritual or have been given the Spirit which is of God.


The word comparing in 1 Cor 2:13 in the greek is the word:

Sugkrino and means:

1. to joint together fitly, compound, combine
2. to interpret
3. to compare

Its not until we have born of the spirit that we can interpret the scriptures and join together the pieces of truth to the over all puzzle.

With that said, when scripture can be spiritually harmonized and shed light, one part on another part, there is nothing unlawful about that; Now in regards to Rom 4:5 and 5:10

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

There is something interchangeably true about both of these scriptures, and that is being reconciled to God by the death of His Son, while yet being an enemies [by nature] is the same as being Justified by God while being Ungodly.

For one [though this will be denied] cannot be reconciled to God without being Justified as well !

Rom 5:10 can very well read without violation or wresting truth Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were ungodly, we were justified before God, by the death of his Son, much more, being justified, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 4:5 can read as well

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that reconciled the enemies, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even the elect, by nature, we are enemies of God, but He does not view us as His enemies, because of Christ death for us. Yes by our actions we are worthy of Him being our enemy, but He is not, but we hate him by nature.

So, even when we the elect, are ungodly, that is by nature at enmity with God, we are Justified before Him Legally , how ? By the Death of His Son.

And, this is what God given Faith comes to believe and realize ! 2

 

[brightfame52]

The scriptures teaches 3 types of Justification, and confusing them can be to our eternal peril, may God grant those who are His elect a understanding.

First and foremost, there is Justification before God, which is totally and 100% the Work of Jesus Christ, and the accomplishment of Jesus Christ.

Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption [blood] that is in Christ Jesus:

Secondly, There is Justification before our consciousness, which is the work of the Holy Ghost per 1 Cor 6:11

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Rom 5:1

1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

And thirdly, there is Justification before men, by the believers own testimony [word and deed] James 2:23-25

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

This act of hers, did not make her Justified before God, for that she already was by the imputed Justification of Christ, but it made her to appear Justified before men, especially those spys, and for us today who read of this testimony of scripture of her and this deed.

There will be also yet in the future, a Justification of all of Gods elect before the whole Universe in the day of Judgment.

Now, even though all the above Justifications are important and should be rejoiced in, the First one [Justification before God by Christ work] is the most important, to be wrong on that one , makes the others that are subsequent wrong as well !

 

[brightfame52]

Justified by Grace then made Heirs experientially !

Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What Paul is saying, is that by Christ death, which was by the Grace of God Heb 2:9, those Christ died for were made Righteous or Justified Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience [Death Heb 2:9] of one shall many be made righteous.

Now as a result of this, those ones He tasted death for shall be made experientially Heirs according to the Hope of Eternal life, which was promised them Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Notice how Paul used the phrase Twice in this epistle " Hope of Eternal life" !

But because we are freely by the Grace of God Justified, made Righteous Legally, God must now through the application work of the Holy Spirit make us Heirs experientially.

Notice Paul says right after stating that we are Justified by His Grace " we should be made heirs "according to the hope of Eternal life.

The word made is the greek word ginomai and means:


to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

What this means, is that we should now receive New Life, to become a New Creation, a New Man as in Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This New Man is created ktizō:

to create

a) of God creating the worlds

b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform

And so that's what God does for all who are Legally Justified by the Grace of God, He makes them Heirs experimentally by giving them New Being, New Existence, a Existence that prepares them for Eternal Life in Glory.

We are made meet Col 1:12

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Eternal Life is an Inheritance, and its bequeathed upon all the Heirs of Promise, the Children of Promise.

So those freely Justified by Grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24 which is to say His Blood Eph 1:7, they will be given a New Life corresponding to what they are, Heirs of the Kingdom , which is Eternal life.