Who shall declare His Generation ?

[savedbygrace57]

He made my mouth as a sharpe sword !

Isa 49:


2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

Anyone with reason, should see that it appears to be a individual here addressed as Israel !

Notice this characteristic, He [ God] made my mouth like a sharp sword.

Where else doo we find similar language of an Individual in scripture ?

Lets look at rev 1:

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

This was true of His Mouth during His public ministry with the wicked jews, when He vehemently condemned them for their hypocrosy and wickedness see Matt 23:

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 

[edwin]

You are My witnesses declares the L-rd, and My servant whom I have chosen: That you may know and believe in Me and understand that I am He, before Me there was no god formed, neither shall there be after Me. Isaiah 43:10

Here, in unequivocal words the prophet clearly identifies the servant as corporate Israel using BOTH the plural "witnesses" and the single "servant" together which can only be applied to a nation that consists of many, but at the same time as a collective entity ie, one nation.

But now, listen, O Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen. Thus says the L-rd who made you, and
formed you from the womb, who will help you: Do not fear, O Jacob My servant, Yeshurun who I have chosen…Remember these things O Jacob, and Israel, for you are My servant, I have formed you, you are My servant O Israel, you will not be forgotten by Me. Isaiah 44:1-2, 21

According to Christian beliefs, Jesus is the "I am" and co-existed with God (or is God) before time. How then, can Jesus be "formed"? This indicates a beginning, a creative process. In other words if Jesus was created he is not the Creator.

 

[savedbygrace57]

edwin:

How then, can Jesus be "formed"?

Was He not a Man ? The Second Adam ? Was Adam formed ?

 

[edwin]

Re: He made my mouth as a sharpe sword !

Isa 49:


2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

Anyone with reason, should see that it appears to be a individual here addressed as Israel !

Notice this characteristic, He [ God] made my mouth like a sharp sword.

Where else doo we find similar language of an Individual in scripture ?

Lets look at rev 1:

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

This was true of His Mouth during His public ministry with the wicked jews, when He vehemently condemned them for their hypocrosy and wickedness see Matt 23:

13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.


14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Of course an individual is being addressed - the prophet Isaiah!

Isaiah - Chapter 49


Chapter 49

1. Hearken, you islands, to me (Isaiah), and listen closely, you nations, from afar; the Lord called me(Isaiah) from the womb, from the innards of my mother He mentioned my name. א. 2. And He made my mouth like a sharp sword, He concealed me in the shadow of His hand; and He made me into a polished arrow, He hid me in His quiver. ב. 3. And He said to me, "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

God is either stating to Isaiah what has been said numerous times, ie Israel is God's servant, or may be acknowledging Isaiah as a servant as well since he is part of Israel as well as a representative of the Jewish nation. It is Isaiah's mouth which functions as a sharp sword admonishing the people when they transgress the Law.

There are numerous references in the Hebrew Bible where the term "avdi" -my servant is used- eg Moses, David. But only in Isaiah 53 are there references in the singular and the plural which can only apply to a collective entity such as corporate Israel. These do not apply to a single individual.

 

[edwin]

edwin:



Was He not a Man ? The Second Adam ? Was Adam formed ?

You cannot have it both ways. If you believe in the trinity then you believe that the father and son are co-equal. The second part of the godhead cannot logically be beneath the first part of the godhead ie God cannot be his own servant! If you believe that Jesus is God how can he be made to "prosper" ? Once you accept the principles of belief of the trinity, you run into logical inconsistencies vis-a-vis Isaiah 53, even if you also believe in the incarnation.

I suggest we stay off the tangent idea of the trinity and concentrate on the passage under discussion. Could you please address an issue previously raised, namely, not only is Israel (Jacob) identified by Isaiah as the servant in at least 9 separate passages, but in Isa 53 there are references both in the singular and the plural to the servant. You have yet to provide a reasonable and clear response how this can possibly apply to Jesus.